OC and CC questions?????

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I'm newly registered to the forum but have been reading for quite some time. There is a lot of great info to be found here. Thank you all for your contributions.

First off I'm not employed by nor a volunteer of a police or sheriff dept. and my question come up after doing research while trying to educate my supervisor about the laws regarding OC and CC in Michigan.

§750.234d and §28.425o State where you can not OC or CC respectivley. AG Opinions 7098 and 7101 reference how reserve officers are defined as not being peace officers.

So, my question being this. If they are not peace officers and are carrying their side arm under the same restrictions that the average citizen is, when they get into a patrol car and they do not posses a CPL, are they not breaking the law?

I did do a bunch of searching on this forum and also have spent hours reviewing the firearms laws handbook and have found nothing to the contrary.

Thanks in advance for any input. If nobody can help me answer this, I will forward a copy to my state law makers.

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ght1098 wrote:

I'm newly registered to the forum but have been reading for quite some time. There is a lot of great info to be found here. Thank you all for your contributions.

First off I'm not employed by nor a volunteer of a police or sheriff dept. and my question come up after doing research while trying to educate my supervisor about the laws regarding OC and CC in Michigan.

§750.234d and §28.425o State where you can not OC or CC respectivley. AG Opinions 7098 and 7101 reference how reserve officers are defined as not being peace officers.

So, my question being this. If they are not peace officers and are carrying their side arm under the same restrictions that the average citizen is, when they get into a patrol car and they do not posses a CPL, are they not breaking the law?

I did do a bunch of searching on this forum and also have spent hours reviewing the firearms laws handbook and have found nothing to the contrary.

Thanks in advance for any input. If nobody can help me answer this, I will forward a copy to my state law makers.

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A very interesting question that I don't have the answer to. I will be looking into it though. I would guess they would have to unload and lock. But I bet most don't. I think the AG opinion was thinking of an officer out on foot or horse back. My township has a cadet (LE student) that rides in uniform with the officers. He doesn't carry a gun.

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Thank you for the reply Venator. I was kind of hoping you would chime in as you seem to have a vast knowledge and have gained the respect of the other members.

We have both a sheriff reserve (armed) and city police volunteers (not paid and armed). I look forward to any info you can dig up on this. I will also seek out more info and will post any updates.

I have sent an email to my state representative and senator. I guess we'll see what they come up with.

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ght1098 wrote:

Thank you for the reply Venator. I was kind of hoping you would chime in as you seem to have a vast knowledge and have gained the respect of the other members.

We have both a sheriff reserve (armed) and city police volunteers (not paid and armed). I look forward to any info you can dig up on this. I will also seek out more info and will post any updates.

I have sent an email to my state representative and senator. I guess we'll see what they come up with.

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I have sent this questionto the MSP as well. I talked with my police Chief and he said he doesn't know of any reserve officers that do not have a CPL, so the entering of a car was not an issue. Our department has a cadet program, that takes on and helps train a student in a LEO program (college or academy). The student is in uniform but is not armed. He is also under 21 years of ages (so no CPL).

Do you know if the volunteers you mentioned have CPL's or under 21???

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Some of them do, but some don't have cpl's. I was told by both my friends that are leo and by my state rep that they supposedly have the same carry rules as full time leo's as long as they are working, but not when they are not working... I don't know, I'm still trying to find that verbage in the law books.

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ght1098 wrote:

Some of them do, but some don't have cpl's. I was told by both my friends that are leo and by my state rep that they supposedly have the same carry rules as full time leo's as long as they are working, but not when they are not working... I don't know, I'm still trying to find that verbage in the law books.

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That would seem to directly contradict the AG opinion.

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I was wondering if anyone has any advice on transporting a pistol for example to the picnic. Currently I do not have a CPL although I am in the process.

I read the state law regarding transporting firearms but I was listening to one of the past shows where the guys were talking about getting clarification on if that list was only example or all inclusive. Are you able to drive to the public park with the pistol properly stored until you are out of the car? Or do you have to park at a private parking lot and walk over?

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Generaldet wrote:

I was wondering if anyone has any advice on transporting a pistol for example to the picnic. Currently I do not have a CPL although I am in the process.

I read the state law regarding transporting firearms but I was listening to one of the past shows where the guys were talking about getting clarification on if that list was only example or all inclusive. Are you able to drive to the public park with the pistol properly stored until you are out of the car? Or do you have to park at a private parking lot and walk over?

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1. Some will say you have to have it properly stored and locked, have to park on private property, get out, load it up, holster it and walk over.

2. Some say you can simply have it properly stored and locked go directly to the park, get out, load it up, holster it, and enjoy your day.

3. Some say to post asking an attending member with a CPL to meet you at a nearby gas station or McD's or the like, transport onto the park property for you, and once there get out, load it up, holster it, and enjoy. (There is a BP gas station on the SE corner of Van Dyke and Martin)

I have done all 3 to past events. When it comes to the August 16th event, i WILL have it properly stored and locked, go directly to the park, get out, load it up, holster it, and enjoy my day.

MY personal belief is that the examples given for lawful transport are just that........examples. It is MY belief that ALL transport without malicious intent IS legal. I am more than prepared to go to jail for MY beliefs and discuss it with the judge and my attorney in the morning.

Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer and the above statements are not in ANY way to encourage ANYONE to do the things I do.

IF you are worried in any way, i would definitely go with option one or three as mentioned above.

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This is what I sent to the MSP. Below that is their response. As you will read he skirts the question. So really no good information there.

Dear Sgt. Deasy:

This question below was asked on opencarry.org Michigan's forum. It deals with a non-sworn LEO's without a CPL carrying a loaded handgun in a patrol car. Does the officer have to unload and secure his weapon while driving or as a passenger in a car? If the reserve officer is considered a non LEO than he would have to abide by the law the same as a citizen without a CPL. Correct?

"§750.234d and §28.425o State where you can not OC or CC respectivley. AG Opinions 7098 and 7101 reference how reserve officers are defined as not being peace officers.

So, my question being this. If they are not peace officers and are carrying their side arm under the same restrictions that the average citizen is, when they get into a patrol car and they do not posses a CPL, are they not breaking the law?"

As always I apperciate and thank you for your time. Brian Jeffs

Mr. Jeffs,

Whether a reserve officer must obtain a Concealed Pistol License depends on his or her relationship with their police department. MCL 28.432a exempts police officers from the requirement to obtain a CPL. Per AG Opinion No. 7098 (analyzing MCL 28.432a), a reserve officer "is a police officer...[and] is exempt from the licensing requirements of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act if the officer possesses the full authority of a peace officer and is regularly employed and paid by a police agency of the United States, this state, or a political subdivision of the state."

So, whether a particular reserve officer needs a CPL depends on whether he or she has full police authority, is regularly employed, and is paid. The bottom line: such determinations must be made case-by-case, and there is no blanket rule for reserve officers.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

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Venator wrote:

SNIP

So, whether a particular reserve officer needs a CPL depends on whether he or she has full police authority, is regularly employed, and is paid. The bottom line: such determinations must be made case-by-case, and there is no blanket rule for reserve officers.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

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Sgt. Deasy is saying, if you do not have full police authority, the CPL is required? That's the way I'm reading it. I do know there are police reserves who qualify as "Peace Officers", but as a volunteer you do not, therefore, IMO, the CPL is required.

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That is the only info that i can find also. Seems to be a very vauge area. Thank you for your efforts. I'll keep looking.