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An Open Letter to Open Carriers

CCWONLY

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Jul 26, 2008
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2
Location
Ellensburg, Washington, USA
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Greetings. I write to you because I have become concerned with the growing movement for the acceptance of the practice of open carry. I am a firearms enthusiast, hunter, frequent shooter, and regularly carry concealed. My guns are for sport, personal protection, and general enjoyment. In short, I am a gun nut.

I have been reading material on the websites for open carriers, and am becoming concerned. It seems the number one objective is to find places to pack your gun around where people will object. Just because something is legal, does not mean that everybody must accept it. Do the rights of property owners mean nothing to you? Wal-Mart does not want you walking around with a gun on your hip, lawful or not. Just as you set the rules at your homes, they make the decisions in theirs. Smoking is legal, but I do not let anybody smoke in my house. I am certain that there is something you would not allow on your land. If you don’t like the idea that some people would rather you come in unarmed, either conceal or just don’t go there. But instead, it seems many of you would rather go through the confrontations everywhere. I have made hundreds, maybe thousands, of trips to stores with a gun. How do I avoid the hassle? Conceal it. Discrete carrying has also never resulted in harassment by police. The burden you complain of is completely self-imposed. You made the decision to make sure everybody sees your pistol. And the sense of self-importance as a ‘customer’ has completely overshadowed the responsibilities held as a ‘guest.’

Why must you open carry to begin with? Here in Washington, you must have a CPL to have a loaded weapon on your person or in your reach in a vehicle. So either you walk everywhere you go, you stop and open the trunk to retrieve your firearm when you reach your destination, or you have a permit, but prefer to display what you have.

Let’s also not forget that everybody votes. So every time you are out in public with a firearm in plain sight, you may be influencing somebody in a negative way. They will remember this come November. Every time I see gays being outlandish, it strengthens my resolve to keep them from ever gaining the right to marry. Do you ever think about how people are reacting to seeing your weapon in public? You are taking a big chance not only with your rights, but with mine by deciding everyone needs to see a gun today.

It is also selfish. Every lawfully carried concealed weapon is one in the hands of a good guy. It makes perpetrating a crime a spin of the roulette wheel. The criminals are taking a chance that this will be the last victim they choose. Concealed carry protects everybody, because nobody can be sure who is prepared to defend themselves, and who is not. Open carry protects only you. It in fact improves the bad guy’s chances, because they can remove one armed citizen from the pool of potential victims.

Please consider doing what the majority of gun carriers do every day, and conceal your weapon. This is not Dodge City, and there is no compelling reason for open carry.
 

jchen012

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Oct 4, 2006
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144
Location
Bellevue, WA, ,
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Yay a troll... Let me bite...

So what about those who are 18-21 years old? Open carry gives them the option to have a firearm for self defense. And don't tell me they should wait until they are 21 to get their CPL... criminals do not care how old you are and they will not wait for you to "grow up." Also what about people visiting out of side? It gives them the option to carry as well without going through the process of getting a non resident permit. Permits cost money, and if a tourist decided to come to Washington every few years, it isn't worth it to go through the process to get the non resident CPL.

Personally, I don't open carry as much as I like. But there is one event that I always open carry: when I go hiking. Ever tried carrying concealed while hiking? It sucks. You are sweating and your firearm is moving all over the place. Open carry is a godsend on the trails. Whether or not I open carry, I will still do as much as I can to keep it legal and to spread the word.


Also your examples are not even backed by fact. If you talk to criminals in jail, 9/10 criminals avoid confrontation. They just want to do their thing, and get out. The violent ones you see on TV are that 1/10. Those criminals who are part of the 9/10 will avoid the guy who is open carrying. Why risk your life when there are plenty of other victims and other banks to rob. Criminals change plans all the time. They will not risk getting into a confrontation with a open carrying person. Why risk the extra jail time as well if they get caught. It's the same thing with security guards. A criminal wants to rob a bank. The bank on the right has an UNARMED security guard. The one on the left has no security guard. He will rob the left one because hehas one less thing to worry about. Criminals want to get away with their crimes and in order to do that, they need to keep their crimes as uncomplicated as possible.
 

Bear 45/70

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May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
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CCWONLY wrote:
Greetings. I write to you because I have become concerned with the growing movement for the acceptance of the practice of open carry. I am a firearms enthusiast, hunter, frequent shooter, and regularly carry concealed. My guns are for sport, personal protection, and general enjoyment. In short, I am a gun nut.

I have been reading material on the websites for open carriers, and am becoming concerned. It seems the number one objective is to find places to pack your gun around where people will object. Just because something is legal, does not mean that everybody must accept it. Do the rights of property owners mean nothing to you? Wal-Mart does not want you walking around with a gun on your hip, lawful or not. Just as you set the rules at your homes, they make the decisions in theirs. Smoking is legal, but I do not let anybody smoke in my house. I am certain that there is something you would not allow on your land. If you don’t like the idea that some people would rather you come in unarmed, either conceal or just don’t go there. But instead, it seems many of you would rather go through the confrontations everywhere. I have made hundreds, maybe thousands, of trips to stores with a gun. How do I avoid the hassle? Conceal it. Discrete carrying has also never resulted in harassment by police. The burden you complain of is completely self-imposed. You made the decision to make sure everybody sees your pistol. And the sense of self-importance as a ‘customer’ has completely overshadowed the responsibilities held as a ‘guest.’

Why must you open carry to begin with? Here in Washington, you must have a CPL to have a loaded weapon on your person or in your reach in a vehicle. So either you walk everywhere you go, you stop and open the trunk to retrieve your firearm when you reach your destination, or you have a permit, but prefer to display what you have.

Let’s also not forget that everybody votes. So every time you are out in public with a firearm in plain sight, you may be influencing somebody in a negative way. They will remember this come November. Every time I see gays being outlandish, it strengthens my resolve to keep them from ever gaining the right to marry. Do you ever think about how people are reacting to seeing your weapon in public? You are taking a big chance not only with your rights, but with mine by deciding everyone needs to see a gun today.

It is also selfish. Every lawfully carried concealed weapon is one in the hands of a good guy. It makes perpetrating a crime a spin of the roulette wheel. The criminals are taking a chance that this will be the last victim they choose. Concealed carry protects everybody, because nobody can be sure who is prepared to defend themselves, and who is not. Open carry protects only you. It in fact improves the bad guy’s chances, because they can remove one armed citizen from the pool of potential victims.

Please consider doing what the majority of gun carriers do every day, and conceal your weapon. This is not Dodge City, and there is no compelling reason for open carry.
You really don't get it do you? I could say to you "Why do you carry concealed? Are you ashamed to let people know you have a gun? Do you really need a gun? So much of what you suggests says you don't understand Constitutional Rights and why we have them. Back in the old west, the vast majority of todays criminals wouldn't be criminals because most everybody had a gun and today's bad boy would be just that bad boys and not criminals out of fear of the main body of citizens and their guns. Today when nobody carries openly the criminals get their gun and figure they have the upper hand. OCers are telling them they don't have the upper hand plus letting the world know at the same time, that guns are not evil, they are just a tool and a good man will carry a gun and use it to defend himself and others. Bad people use tools to do bad thing. The tool is not at fault, the bad person is. You claim that OC only protect the OCer. False from the word go, concealed carry only protects the concealed carrier and does nothing to prevent crime until after it is in progress. OC deters any criminal activity in the general area, sort of like when a cop is around. Your contention that this isn't Dodge City applies to you, why are you carrying a gun? There is no compelling reason for you to carry a gun concealed. But since you carry, you don't agree with your own statement.
 

badger

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
92
Location
Mukilteo, Washington, USA
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I think the opencarry.org motto "A right unexcercised is a right lost" just about sums up your quiery. Helping everyday people see that not only police and criminals carry guns is one way of showing them that guns aren't inherently bad. I have no bone to pick with anyone who chooses to conceal their firearm.

As far as you bringing up Wal-Mart, their corporate policy (as with most large retail corporations) is to mirror state law when it comes to firearms. I'm still trying to figure out why you brought up gays.

With regards to people voting, without exposure to firearms many citizens may not even see a need or use for them beside police/military and vote for stronger gun laws out of mere ignorance. This doesn't help any gun owner.

Also, this being the largest pro open carry website you are bound to read MANY stories involving the subject. As with any topic there are going to be complaints. Our mission isn't to see how many places we can get ourselves kicked out of. We do try to give each other a heads up about places that do cause problems for OC. We understand that private property is just that and respect the rights and wishes of owners.

Hope you enjoy the Labor Day Rodeo!

-Badger
 

deanf

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Feb 25, 2007
Messages
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Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
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It seems the number one objective is to find places to pack your gun around where people will object

Could you provide an example?

Wal-Mart does not want you walking around with a gun on your hip, lawful or not.

But that's not true. The Walmart corporate policy is to mirror state law on gun carry. The uninformed local manager cannot change the corporate policy. Do some more reading here about Walmart incidents.

If you don’t like the idea that some people would rather you come in unarmed, either conceal or just don’t go there.

Any in places where OCers know that OC is not allowed, that's exactly what we do. Usually we pick the don't go there.

Why must you open carry to begin with? Here in Washington, you must have a CPL to have a loaded weapon on your person or in your reach in a vehicle.

And almost everyone here does have a CPL, to satisfy the vehicle carry requirement. We follow the law. Why must we? We mustn't. We choose to, within the law. If we didn't want the choice, we'd just move to France.

there is no compelling reason for open carry.

The government needs a compelling reason, not me.

You do what you want without hurting anyone, and we'll expect you to be left alone. I'll do what I want without hurting anyone, and I expect the same courtesy.

Welcome.
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,820
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
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There are at least 2 current threads addressing all matters in the "open letter". If CCWONLY won't take the time to actually read the forum and the consistent responses to these matters I see no reason for us to take the time to respond to the "open letter". Most likely this is another hit and run troll just like the last few who will post this and then disappear. We will spend pages responding to no avail because no one but us will read the responses anyway and we already know what each other is going to say because we have already said it in a dozen threads like this.

CCWONLY, if you want to take the time to actually read this forum and our responses to other comments exactly like yours, and then start a thread addressing those comments and responses on the forum, I am sure that many people would be happy to discuss the issue with you. Otherwise, thank you for your pontification and have nice day.
 

Bear 45/70

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May 22, 2007
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Location
Union, Washington, USA
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John Hardin wrote:
CCWONLY wrote:
Wal-Mart does not want you walking around with a gun on your hip, lawful or not.
That is factually inaccurate.
Mr Hardin is correct. In my local Wall-Mart no employee has ever ever said a word to me about my pistol and it isn't like they haven't had a chance to say something too.
 

Bobarino

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Mar 28, 2008
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295
Location
Puyallup, Washington, USA
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Every time I see gays being outlandish, it strengthens my resolve to keep them from ever gaining the right to marry. Do you ever think about how people are reacting to seeing your weapon in public? You are taking a big chance not only with your rights, but with mine by deciding everyone needs to see a gun today.

then your problem lies only within yourself. do you get upset when you see heterosexual couples getting "outlandish"? making out in public? there's nothing illiegal about either couple doing it. the fact that YOU or somebody else will have their delicate sensibilities offeded or have their own perceived notions of right and wrong compromised doesn't mean that your will should be imposed on other, law abiding people.

your mere possesion of firearms offends Sarah Brady. should she be allowed to impose her will upon you? Obama is completely against any carry of any kind including concealed. should he be able to take away your right? or tell you that even though its legal, you should leave it at home anyway because he doesn't like it?

your arguement is weak, ignorant and hypocritcal.

carrrying of a firearm in the state of Washington, openly or concealed with a permit is 100% legal, has no adverse effects on anyone except those that CHOOSE to be adversly affected by their own ignorance and baseless fears.

some people choose to exercise their 1st Amendment rights by getting tatoos of naked women or profane words, some choose to do it by writing open letters on a website. should one be protected and the other not?

a right is a right. people choose to exercise their rights in different ways. you need to learn to resepct other peoples' methods of doing so just as others repect yours. only being allowed certain methods of exercising a right means that right is no longer a right, but a priveledge. either you are for the right to keep and bear arms or you're not. only being for it as long as its done as YOU see fit makes you no friend of the right to keep and bear arms.

Bobby
 

deepdiver

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People this is probably another troll. He posted this and was signed in for no more than 30 minutes afterwards. He didn't post this and sit back to have a discussion. He posted this and the exact same letter in the "Why we open carry" sub-forum, stuck around for less than half an hour and logged off.
 

carhas0

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Mar 5, 2007
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jchen012 wrote:
Yay a troll... Let me bite...

So what about those who are 18-21 years old? Open carry gives them the option to have a firearm for self defense...

Unless someone 18-21 is in his/her place of abode, fixed place of business, or on real property under his/her control, s/he cannot open (or concealed) carry (RCW 9.31.240) unless certain other exceptions apply, such as the lawful outdoor recreational activity exception (RCW 9.41.060).
 

jchen012

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Bellevue, WA, ,
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sean-1286 wrote:
jchen012 wrote:
Yay a troll... Let me bite...

So what about those who are 18-21 years old? Open carry gives them the option to have a firearm for self defense...

Unless someone 18-21 is in his/her place of abode, fixed place of business, or on real property under his/her control, s/he cannot open (or concealed) carry (RCW 9.31.240) unless certain other exceptions apply, such as the lawful outdoor recreational activity exception (RCW 9.41.060).
Actually that was what I was referring to. Sorry for not going into detail. Thanks for the clarification.
 

ghosthunter

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Jun 8, 2008
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I know do not feed the Trolls. Well the devil makes me do it.

This comes up all the time. People want to Cherry Pick the Constitution. If you do not do their way than it is wrong or a problem. The problem is we went down the CC path in the first place.

I cc all the time and open carry when it suits me depending on what I am doing. They are really acting out of fear. "Oh don't open carry that will cause problems".

If people can stand on a street corner and burn the American Flag while my son and others are shedding blood in the sand than surely folks can get past open carrying.

I see this year as the year of the gun. I think that their has been somany positive events happening around the country in regards to gun rights that even the Democrats would have a hard time quelling the movement now.
 

jbone

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We’ve all heard “opinions are like asshole, everyone has one” I wouldn’t get your tail feathers all ruffled over this person. He obvious signed onto the wrong forum. There are plenty of CCW websites for him to surf, were Open Carry supporters wouldn’t bash him. Hell many of us have CPL’s and CCW at times. What he forgets is the 2[suP]nd[/suP], the 24[suP]th[/suP] and all those RCW’s are for everyone, open or CCW. Why one person exercising his right would bash another for doing the same just makes them look like mentioned earlier “A troll”. Again, It’s a shame one gun supporter would bash another for the way he supports the his/her rights. He may be an Obama plant trying to divide supporters of the 2[suP]nd[/suP] and 24[suP]th[/suP].
 

Gray Peterson

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Lynnwood, Washington, USA
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Let’s also not forget that everybody votes. So every time you are out in public with a firearm in plain sight, you may be influencing somebody in a negative way. They will remember this come November. Every time I see gays being outlandish, it strengthens my resolve to keep them from ever gaining the right to marry.

This, my friends, is the words of a bigot.

Seriously, CCWOnly, what is your point in lobbing this grenade into this forum, especially with THAT statement right there.

Do you not realize that one of the founders of the open carry movement here in Washington State is OUT AND PROUD GAY MAN?!!!!! Isn't just great to be part one of the most ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS populations in this country? :D

If you read enough of this forum before lobbing the grenade, you'd know that.

How many people, with your concealed pistol, have been told where to get concealed pistol licenses because the persons asking you didn't think it was even legal to carry guns up here in Washington (I've gotten plenty of that from ex-Californians), whether concealed or open? I've had DOZENS of people tell me that they are applying for their carry licenses, therefor putting more people out there CARRYING, period, however they choose, whether concealed or open.

As for your statement that open carry will get banned....

Not gonna happen. If the Washington State Legislature passes an open carry ban, it would have to be accompanied by a Alaska style carry license system, or the licenses would have to be entirely free, in order to pass constitutional muster here in Washington, and even then that's doubtful due to the strong wording of the Heller.

Anti-gunners are in complete retreat all across the country. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals is likely going to incorporate the Second Amendment (don't laugh, there's very strong indications that this will happen), which means open carry will be CONSTITUTIONALLY from state action, within the next 6 months.
 

ccw9mm

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It seems the number one objective is to find places to pack your gun around where people will object.
Nope. Exactly the opposite, for me. Am not specifically looking for confrontation of any sort.

Carrying openly shouldn't shock anyone, cause fear in anyone, disturb the peace or anything close to it. There is nothing criminal about it. Carrying, itself, is not a threatening act, openly or otherwise.

The thing of carrying a sidearm as a tool is that, if it's neither illegal nor ill-advised, there shouldn't be a problem no matter where it is. And that's exactly the point. We, as citizens, aren't pariahs and should not be treated as such, merely because we opt to provide for our own security. OC helps people see that the drooling, slavering gun nuts aren't much different from anyone else, when it becomes a common thing to carry.

I'm all for concealed carry, in higher-risk areas, and I tend to believe that the element of surprise is worth retaining. But in the end, it's hard to not appreciate the simple fact that common use and engagement can and often does lead directly to a reduction of irrational fears and ultimate acceptance.

So every time you are out in public with a firearm in plain sight, you may be influencing somebody ...
Sure. That's the whole point. To be seen for what it is. A part of being a free citizen without a boot on one's neck.
 

Statkowski

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Sep 27, 2006
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Cherry Tree (Indiana County), Pennsylvania, USA
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This is not Dodge City...

You've been watching too many Hollywood Westerns. In 1872 Dodge City had 15 murders, and then the citizens started policing up the place. They hired the best to keep the riffraff down to a dull roar. They even outlawed the carrying of firearms in the city limits. Yes, Dodge City had "gun control." You could not open carry in the Dodge City of 1876.

And I open carry simply because it's too warm in the summertime to try to hide my sidearm.
 
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