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Thread: Curious---where does all the paper go?

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    Hey Folks!

    I recently made use of Uncle Sam's Firearm Ownership Stimulus Package $$ to buy a pistol and got to wondering about where all the forms (in triplicate) end up? I've been reading around and noticed the local police had to be sent a copy within 6 hours... there were 2 forms, one from the ATF and the other I gather was a WA State document---where do all these forms and copies go, when and why? I know I didn't get one!

    See...I can understand a background check...but at the end of the day having to jump through the hoops just kinda grates on me....I can drive up to any gas station anytime and buy a hundred gallons of explosive...no questions asked...I admit I found the process of buying my first handgun to be vaguely insulting. And as I thought on it, I just wanted to know more...


    Thanks for your insights......



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    doesn't the dealer have to keep a copy for(almost)ever?

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    I haven’t riffled through this site, but some answers may be found here. Hope it helps.

    http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/index.htm
    Im proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    4473 is a one part form, dealer keeps it for 20 years.

    The state form (triplicate) one is sent to the local PD, dealer keeps one, and the third goes to DOL who stores the info on handgun purchases in a database.

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    Thanks!

    So a DOL database........so anytime a police officer runs your license during a traffic stop they get a list of handguns you own too?

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    911Boss,

    I know we talked about this in the other thead, but I still haven't been able to find any actual authorization for the DOL to do this. Did I miss it there?

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    The firearms records don't come up with a regular DOL/Warrants check. the gun check has to be run seperately, but yes, they can get a list of handguns purchased from a dealer in WA state. There are no records for anything you bought out of state (while a resident of course), bought in a private transaction, or long guns.

    I had posted the following in theother thread, no one commented so I don't know if it was seen or not...



    OK, bear with me I am not a lawyer, but I think I have figured it out...

    To buy a handgun from an FFL in WA, you have to fill out two different forms. The first one is the 4473 (Federal form). This is the form that includesa specific "Statement" from the purchaser required underthe U.S.C. which says:

    The statement referred to in paragraph (1)(A)(i)(I) shall contain only -

    (A) the name, address, and date of birth appearing on a valid identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(1) (!4)) of the transferee containing a photograph of the transferee and a description of the identification used;

    (B) a statement that the transferee -

    (i) is not under indictment for, and has not been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, and has not been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence;

    (ii) is not a fugitive from justice;

    (iii) is not an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act);

    (iv) has not been adjudicated as a mental defective or been committed to a mental institution;

    (v) is not an alien who -

    (I) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or

    (II) subject to subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and

    Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

    (vi) has not been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; and

    (vii) is not a person who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced such citizenship;

    (C) the date the statement is made; and

    (D) notice that the transferee intends to obtain a handgun from

    the transferor.


    This "statement" is beingspecifically referred to in the U.S.C. and it is whatthe requirements relate to. The FFL keeps the 4473in accordance with ATF rules.

    I may be wrong here, but I don't believe the 4473 goes to the PD. The reason I am not sure is because the U.S.C. says the dealer must "...provide notice of the contents of the statement"[/i] to the local PD, but it also requires that the dealer "...transmit a copy of the statement" [/i]to the PD. Both requirements must be done within 1 day of receiving the application.

    The second form is the WA State "Application to Transfer Pistol". This form is in triplicate andRCW 9.41.090 says the original goesto the local PD and charges the PD with additional checks such as Health Department mental records, outstanding misdemeanor warrants, etc. It does not include all of the statements on the 4473 (basically all the "Yes/No" questions). Instead, it has you certify a number of things related to RCW’s regarding handgun ownership and you give your permission to check related mental health records and such. The dealer certifies that he followed all of the federal rules. This state form may somehow fulfill the notification to PDrequirements of the U.S.C. but I honestly don't know about that.


    RCW 9.41.090 states after the checks are complete "...The chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county shall retain or destroy applications to purchase a pistol in accordance with the requirements of 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922."
    [/i]
    If you delve into the U.S.C. (I don't recommend it, it made my head hurt) you'll find that when it talks about destroying records, it says any record transmitted to the local PD will be destroyed, and that "...the information contained in the statement shall not be used for any purpose other than to carry out this subsection."
    [/i]
    I read this to mean the requirements and restrictions are only onthe PD that received the information and is not a blanket requirement that all copies and records be destroyed. Otherwise, it would seem to contradict retention requirements on the FFL for the 4473. Even if that is not the case, the state form does not include the federally required “statement” information, so I don’t think the requirement would apply.

    The state RCW requirement to the PDthat reiteratesthe PD will handle the records they receive in accordance with U.S.C., would likewise relate only to the records sent to the PD. Nothing in the U.S.C. or the state laws requires ALL records to be destroyed, just those sent to the PD for the necessary checks.


    Now look at RCW 9.41.110 (9)(b) “One copy shall within six hours be sent by certified mail to the chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county of which the purchaser is a resident; the duplicate the dealer shall within seven days send to the director of licensing; the triplicate the dealer shall retain for six years.”

    State law directs the dealer to give the info to DOL. This doesn’t violate the requirement on the PD to not use or disclose the info for other purposes. And there is nothing in theU.S.C. that says States can't keep track of purchase info,U.S.C only restricts the information provided in the required "statement" from the purchaseron the 4473. The state form is seperate and does not include that information. So I don't see where theU.S.C. would restrict DOL from collecting and keeping the transfer records.


    Now look at RCW 9.41.129 (Recordkeeping requirements) which says The department of licensing may keep copies or records of applications for concealed pistol licenses provided for in RCW
    9.41.070, copies or records of applications for alien firearm licenses, copies or records of applications to purchase pistols provided for in RCW 9.41.090, and copies or records of pistol transfers provided for in RCW 9.41.110. The copies and records shall not be disclosed except as provided in RCW 42.56.240(4).”

    This is where DOL is charged with maintainingthe records.



    ***BUT...

    Finding these “answers”, seems to have led to a new question that I can’t answer. RCW 9.41.129 says the records "...shall not be disclosed except as provided in RCW
    42.56.240(4)."

    RCW 42.56.240(4) specifically says:

    "(4) License applications under RCW
    9.41.070; copies of license applications or information on the applications may be released to law enforcement or corrections agencies;”

    It seems pretty clear that disclosure is allowed only in regards to Concealed Pistol License applications.RCW 9.41.070 only deals with CPL's and it has nothing to do with copies or records of applications to purchase pistols” or copies or records of pistol transfers”.

    So it would appear at this point that an individualshandgun purchase informationshould not be available to LEOs since the information is not connected to the CPL process, and the CPL info is the only exception provided for disclosure under RCW 42.56.240(4).


    This may warrant further study, but I have reached a dead end and can’t find anything else related.



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    The only problem I have with all this is the part where the PD is suppose to check for "outstanding misdemeanor warrants". What the hell do misdemeanors have to do with buying a pistol?

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The only problem I have with all this is the part where the PD is suppose to check for "outstanding misdemeanor warrants". What the hell do misdemeanors have to do with buying a pistol?
    Nothing really, they just hold up the transfer until you clear the warrants. They use it as leverage.

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    911Boss wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The only problem I have with all this is the part where the PD is suppose to check for "outstanding misdemeanor warrants". What the hell do misdemeanors have to do with buying a pistol?
    Nothing really, they just hold up the transfer until you clear the warrants. They use it as leverage.
    So the cops will violate your Constitutional Rights so asto not have to do their job, themselves. Not proper conduct of a policing agency, more like storm trooper tactics.

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    I'd consider keeping people with current active warrants for their arrest from buying a gun a good thing. If they are doing this and clearing a warrant because of it I'd say that they are doing their jobs.

    Re-read Heller, the right is not absolute. Disagree if you wish, but your disagreement doesn't change what "is".

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    911Boss wrote:
    I'd consider keeping people with current active warrants for their arrest from buying a gun a good thing. If they are doing this and clearing a warrant because of it I'd say that they are doing their jobs.

    Re-read Heller, the right is not absolute. Disagree if you wish, but your disagreement doesn't change what "is".
    Misdemeanorsare not by law something that disallows a person form owning or buying a gun. So it is a bad thing, by law and just goes to show that the lawactually means nothing to the cops except as a tool the lord it over the citizens. Your logic is so flawed that the only reason you could get there is with cop reasoning.I can do whatever I want in the name of the law. Pure BS.

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    They're not being disallowed the purchase, it is only being delayed until they fufill their obligations. There is nothing that says someone with a warrant can't possess a gun or buy one. You just can't get one from a WA state dealer while you have the outstanding warrant.

    What LAW pray tell are they breaking? The LAW says it can't be done. They are enforcing the LAW. While the LAW may be counter to you belief, you cannot accuse them of breaking a LAW in delaying the transfer.

    You say youcan't understand the "cop" mentality.I am not a cop and it is a mentality I had long before working with 911 system. It is the mentality that folks should followthe rules of society.

    Your mentality evidently doesn't see the contradiction of demanding rights and entitlement afforded by law while at the same time disregarding the law and personal responsibilty if it suits you.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how retarded it is. The fact is, it is the LAW and you don't need to agree with it. Thankfully the folks in charge, while maybe not being the brightest bulbs in the pack, aren't quite as dim as you.



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    911Boss wrote:
    They're not being disallowed the purchase, it is only being delayed until they fufill their obligations. There is nothing that says someone with a warrant can't possess a gun or buy one. You just can't get one from a WA state dealer while you have the outstanding warrant.

    What LAW pray tell are they breaking? The LAW says it can't be done. They are enforcing the LAW. While the LAW may be counter to you belief, you cannot accuse them of breaking a LAW in delaying the transfer.

    You say youcan't understand the "cop" mentality.I am not a cop and it is a mentality I had long before working with 911 system. It is the mentality that folks should followthe rules of society.

    Your mentality evidently doesn't see the contradiction of demanding rights and entitlement afforded by law while at the same time disregarding the law and personal responsibilty if it suits you.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how retarded it is. The fact is, it is the LAW and you don't need to agree with it. Thankfully the folks in charge, while maybe not being the brightest bulbs in the pack, aren't quite as dim as you.

    You are playing word games. Delaying it is the same as denying it, even if it is for only a short time.By your theory, it is OK to deny a person their right to a, lets say a speedy trail, as long as it is for only a short time. Nope, that's not how the system is suppose to work. The cops spend way to much time violating the law to enforce the law. That is a bad thing, no matter how you say it or do it.

    FYI, I understand the cop mentaliy just fine. I just disapprove of it when it breaks the law to enforce the law. Like my wife tell any of her women friends when they ask about dating cops. She says, they are a lot of fun, but you damn well don't want to take on home to Mama.

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    As far as I understand the law having an outstanding warrant is a prohibitive offence. It does not matter if the warrant is for a misdemeanor or a felony. Also, a conviction of Domestic Violence which in some cases is only a misdemeanor is also a prohibitive offence.

    Jeff

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    I can't stand Cops but even I have to agree that anyone with a warrant shouldn't be buying guns.

    I wouldn't want to arrest someone that just bought a firearm LOL



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    911Boss,

    Thanks for clarifying/repeating your earlier post. It all makes sense, if you read it slow enough.

    And sorry for my part in sending you into a Bear trap.

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    Bear trap....good one

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    ElJefe1911 wrote:
    As far as I understand the law having an outstanding warrant is a prohibitive offence. It does not matter if the warrant is for a misdemeanor or a felony. Also, a conviction of Domestic Violence which in some cases is only a misdemeanor is also a prohibitive offence.

    Jeff
    Give a cite that backs up our statement or say that it is ypour opinion only. I don't by a misdemeaner warrant as a stop, it could just be a traffic warrant. Everyone is well aware of the Constitution violating DV law.

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    On the blue State form titled State of Washington Application to Transfer Pistol, in the shaded portion of section B Titled Statement of Buyer it starts: I certify that I am not ineligible to possess a pistol under RCW 9.41.040 or 9.41.045, and that... (7) I do not have an outstanding warrant for my arrest from any court of competent jurisdiction for a felony or misdemeanor....I certify under penalty or perjury, and subject to the criminal penalties set out in RCW9A.72.040 that the statements and other information set forth in this license are true and correct. I have not listed the other eight prohibitions listed on this for due to lack of interest in typing that much info. If anyone feels that I have taken these words out of context let me know and I will type out the whole thing or you can visit your local gun shop and read the form for yourself. Form 4473 question number 11 subquestion i) Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?

    Not my opinion, just the words on the form.

    Jeff

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    911Boss---you rock!

    I did read
    RCW 42.56.240
    and it would appear you are correct.....and also correct this would warrant more study. I will probably be delving into this a bit more in the upcoming months and will post new info if I get it.



    So here's a further question.....if you transfer the pistol to someone else and notify the DOL, are they commited to keep their records up to date, i.e. remove the pistol from your "file"?




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    ElJefe1911 wrote:
    On the blue State form titled State of Washington Application to Transfer Pistol, in the shaded portion of section B Titled Statement of Buyer it starts: I certify that I am not ineligible to possess a pistol under RCW 9.41.040 or 9.41.045, and that... (7) I do not have an outstanding warrant for my arrest from any court of competent jurisdiction for a felony or misdemeanor....I certify under penalty or perjury, and subject to the criminal penalties set out in RCW9A.72.040 that the statements and other information set forth in this license are true and correct. I have not listed the other eight prohibitions listed on this for due to lack of interest in typing that much info. If anyone feels that I have taken these words out of context let me know and I will type out the whole thing or you can visit your local gun shop and read the form for yourself. Form 4473 question number 11 subquestion i) Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?

    Not my opinion, just the words on the form.

    Jeff
    Thank you.

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    ElJefe1911 wrote:
    I have not listed the other eight prohibitions listed on this for due to lack of interest in typing that much info. If anyone feels that I have taken these words out of context let me know and I will type out the whole thing or you can visit your local gun shop and read the form for yourself.
    No need for all that driving and typing, here is an electronic version of theform to read in the comfort of your own home, sitting in front of the computer in your skivvies, basking in the soft glow of yourmonitor...

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/652001x.pdf

    And here is the 4473...

    http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/Form-4...-Form-4473.htm

    Enjoy!

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    ajax932 wrote:
    So here's a further question.....if you transfer the pistol to someone else and notify the DOL, are they commited to keep their records up to date, i.e. remove the pistol from your "file"?
    I would assume so, the form to fill out is linked below. It requires your info, buyers info, and both signatures. I've never filled one out and never asked anyone to. To me it is essentially voluntary registration nd I am not going to help them with that.

    I generally write a bill of sale and keep a copy. I look at their D/L and CPL, but don't record any ainfo other than their name on the bill of sale.

    Private Transfer form:

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

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    ajax932........We did the same thing with our stimulis money. I figure if Uncle Sam is borrowing money from the Feral Reserve Bank to buy weapons, and he is borrowing money to give to me......Then I should follow suit! I love my Glock.

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