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Thread: Hatcher Ratings, accurate or bs?

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I found this Hatcher rating for handgun calibers for "one shot stop" effectiveness, in one of my gunbooks. I posted this question on the nationalforum and got no answers. Does anyone know about this rating scale and wheather or not it's accurate?

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    I found this Hatcher rating for handgun calibers for "one shot stop" effectiveness, in one of my gunbooks. I posted this question on the nationalforum and got no answers. Does anyone know about this rating scale and wheather or not it's accurate?
    Personally, I think the theory of choosing a bullet based on "one shot stop" percentage is BS. That scale has some flaws, first and foremost being that the scale does not factor out the psychological element; when shot, a majority of people will fall down even if the wound is not ultimately fatal. That's true even ifthe gun is a .22.Thus, the majority of shootings would be "one-shot stops". I say would be, because have you ever heard any gun instructor advocate shooting once and seeing what happens? No; firearms defense courses and LE departments alike advocate shooting at the threat tillit is no longer a threat.Therefore, it is often difficult to determine whether the first shot did the trick thus making the second unnecessary, and in reality the study used to develop the chart actually UNDERestimated the number of one-shot stops for many calibers.

    Third, ratings for these are dependent on percentage of studied cases. To accurately represent the bullet's real-world effectiveness in a shooting, the number of studied cases must be substantial (like thousands). For some calibers that are rated on this scale, those kind of statistical numbers are not available because they are less documented that more common calibers.

    I prefer the FBI standard: the gun and bullet should be capable, at nominal handgun distances (up to 15 yards), of penetrating 12 inches of bad guy. Given that bar, the best caliber is the largest of these that a shooter can fire under control and quickly, and the best gun is the one that the shooter is most comfortable with and that has an acceptable capacity for the scenarios the shooter will likely encounter.

    That all boils down to:

    - Pick the largest caliber you can control in a practical shooting situation. I'm not talking slow-fire at a target in a range; you need to be able to empty a clip at about .5s per shot or faster, accurately enough to put those shots into vital BG areas. If you can't do it with at least a9mm, practice. If you can control a .40's snap, great. If you don't mind a .45's push, that's even better.

    - Pick a gun with ergonomics that feel comfortable, controls that are easy to manipulate, a grip that suits your natural pointing preference (practice drawing and pointing; if the sights aren't pretty close to lined up when just point-firing, you'll either need significant practice or a different gun), and with the largest mag capacity you can find among the guns that fit and feel right. If you're planning on carrying concealed, size is another consideration, but for OC you can pretty much holster anything you like.

    - Pick a holster that will allow for good retention, but fast draws. I've personally never needed more than an Uncle Mike's, but this is totally personal preference and what works for one guy ends up in the bottom of the drawer for another.

    - Pick a defense cartridge (expander)that reliably feeds in your gun, passes the FBI penetration tests, and is inexpensive enough that you can afford tofire off at least twenty or so rounds a month to stay in practice with your defense rounds and verify they'll still feed in the gun.

    - Break in that gun (500 rounds or so, whether the manufacturer says it's needed or not), verify the reliability of the defense ammo in that gun, and then carrythat gun with that ammo in that holsterwherever the law allows.

    Follow those steps and really it doesn't matter what particular gun model, caliber or ammunition you use; you'll have a weapon you are familiar with and that you can trust. Those are the two biggest X-factors, over and above simply having a defense-caliber gun of any sort, that will make you most able to protect your life and those of your loved ones.


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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I will go so far as to say it can't be. Those black talons will mess someone up like crazy, even in a smaller caliber like 9mm. But a FMJ like the military uses won't do nearly as much tissue damage. It boils down to caliber, bullet type, and velocity. Anything measuring less is innacurate.
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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Thanks guys: I knew I could count on an answer. Guess I can throw this rating away.

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    I agree with Liko81 100% on this. Talk to any deer hunter and ask them how many times they have seen a deer run after a mortal hit, a lung or heart wound. Then look up the ballistic energy of a typical deer round versus that of a pistol. The difference is freaking huge. If your facing a determined asailant, the only one stop shot that will stop them is a lucky hit, either a head shot that cuts the brain stem or a spinal shot that cuts the spine high enough to disable the arms. Which is why my CPL instructor insisted on the following on the range, two to the chest then two to the head, and then after that 5more to the chest. The thinking is this, go for mortal first, then try for lucky, and followup with mortal insurance. He also said that you should expect to get hit with return fire and stated that only 10% of those shot with a pistol are killed. His point was if you get shot, get mad and make damn sure that your that you win by living.

    BTW, there was a time when military thinking was that the most effective way to fight a battle was by wounding as many of the enemy as possible. Because a wounded soldier requires a lot of support resources such as doctors, nurses, medics, etc. All an army has to do for someone killed in battle is bury them. Which is why hardball ammunition has been so dominant in the 20th century. However, the modes of combat are changing and the military is now re-thinking the types of ammunitions that should be employed. I think that we'll soon be seeing hardball ammo for military sidearms being replaced with JHP simply because of the change in tactics required for today's armies.

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    The thinking is this, go for mortal first, then try for lucky, and followup with mortal insurance. He also said that you should expect to get hit with return fire and stated that only 10% of those shot with a pistol are killed. His point was if you get shot, get mad and make damn sure that your that you win by living.
    Funny.....This is the same instructions I got from mine!
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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Oh I agree fully. I was just wondering about it. I live by the 2 center mass.... 1 head...+1..+1...+1....+1... 'till the mag is empty.!:what:

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    Also something to take into account, and this has been proven, is the attacker under the influence of anything? PCP, meth, angeldust, crack, are all known stimulants that have lead to disastrous LE PR due to the fact that so many shots are needed to stop an assailant. Example: 17 shots fired from LEO's 9mm glocks into a man on a highway in Illinois before he went down. Post-mortum discovered him to be under the influence of PCP.

    Bigger, is better. 45ACP will always stop someone faster than a .32 simply because of the ft-lbs displaced by the larger caliber. Then again, I've had a 9mm round fail to penetrate an inch of styrofoam. Wolf. :P

    Again, personal preference, but always keep in mind that you may need follow-up shots in rapid succession. Bigger is better, but controllability is the ultimate goal.

    *S*

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    azebolsky wrote:
    Also something to take into account, and this has been proven, is the attacker under the influence of anything? PCP, meth, angeldust, crack, are all known stimulants that have lead to disastrous LE PR due to the fact that so many shots are needed to stop an assailant. Example: 17 shots fired from LEO's 9mm glocks into a man on a highway in Illinois before he went down. Post-mortum discovered him to be under the influence of PCP.
    10-4 on that. I drove a taxicab for 3 years in the 70's while going to college. At that time the drugs of choice were either Pot or Heroin. Both of which act to mellow a user out so much that they are just about as aggressive as a potted plant. So I didn't mind the stoners one bit. Drunks on the otherhand were a major PITA. If they weren't trying to pick a fight, they were accusing you of either robbing, or raping them. To this day I won't get drunk and it's for one simple reason, I have seen first hand how too much alcohol can turn the nicest person into a complete and total A-hole.

    One thing I know for sure, there is no way that I would ever think about driving a cab today. Back in the 70's the street drugs that were popular were all CNS depressents and the message that "Speed Kills" was widely diseminated. Now it seems that what is popular to druggies are all stimulants, which makes me wish I could get an AR-12 as a home defense gun. Twelve gage magnum loads at 360 RPM won't just stop a meth head in his tracks, it will turn him into hamburger.

    BTW, you want to hear something really wrong? The Detroit PD is currently limited to only using 9mm FMJ. Not only won't it stop a hop head, it'll blow right though him and kill a 3 year old sleeping in her crib 2 blocks away. Frankly, the general public needs to be fully educated on the dangers of ammunition with minimal lethality. While it may not kill a criminal, that overpenetration factor puts a lot of innocent lives at risk.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    When did the 9mm thing happen? I thought the DPD used 40 caliber Glocks.
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    Michigander wrote:
    When did the 9mm thing happen? I thought the DPD used 40 caliber Glocks.
    That may be my bad. When I took my CPL course the instructer said that DPD was limited to using using 9mm hardball and it's been a few years. Was in a gun shop picking up a new gun and asked if DPD was still chained to hardball, since the answer was yes I just assumed it was 9mm. Anyhow, 40 caliber is probably just as bad, or worse. The extra mass just means that the bullet can carry further if it overpenetrates. As far as I am concerned the only ammo that cops should be permitted to carry is ammo that stays where it's shot.

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