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Thread: Southwest Virginia Community College - no firearms sign.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    http://www.sw.vccs.edu/

    I drove by SVCC today and saw no firearms allowed on campus sign (I will upload pictures when I'm not on dial-in).

    Anyone know why they would have the ability to deny firearms to everyone on campus? This is a state community college, not a private college. I will work on writing and calling when I have high speed access again. I plan on nicely asking that the signs be removed or modified to stated that faculty, staff, and students cannot have firearms. I will include the AG opinion on it also.

    On the website, I can only find references to firearms in the code of conduct.

    Is there anyone in there area that does not go to school there that I can work with? The eight hour drive is a little much for me.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    One more to follow...

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Includes SVCC sign.

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    Hey, pb. As far as I know, VCU in Richmond is the only college in Virginia that has banned firearms. All other state schools are preempted. Of course the students, faculty and staff areprohibited via school policy. As long as you're not in one of the above 3 groups, it's legal to carry. Also, IANAL...

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    DoubleR wrote:
    Hey, pb. As far as I know, VCU in Richmond is the only college in Virginia that has banned firearms. All other state schools are preempted. Of course the students, faculty and staff areprohibited via school policy. As long as you're not in one of the above 3 groups, it's legal to carry. Also, IANAL...
    Even then its not "illegal" for students, faculty or staff to carry. They just risk being expelled or fired from the school.

    It seems it would always be best, if in doubt, to contact the school and/or local police.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    DoubleR wrote:
    Hey, pb. As far as I know, VCU in Richmond is the only college in Virginia that has banned firearms. All other state schools are preempted. Of course the students, faculty and staff areprohibited via school policy. As long as you're not in one of the above 3 groups, it's legal to carry. Also, IANAL...
    Even then its not "illegal" for students, faculty or staff to carry. They just risk being expelled or fired from the school.

    It seems it would always be best, if in doubt, to contact the school and/or local police.
    Except for VCU IIRC, that is specifically in the Virginia Code. But every other public school above high school is open to non-student/faculty/staff carry.

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    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
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    George Mason University (8VAC35-60-20. Possession of weapons prohibited.) "Possession or carrying of any weapon by any person, except a police officer, is prohibited on university property in academic buildings, administrative office buildings, student residence buildings, and while attending sporting, entertainment or educational events. Entry upon the aforementioned university property in violation of this prohibition is expressly forbidden.

    Statutory Authority
    §23-91.29 of the Code of Virginia."

    See Also: George Mason University v. Floyd, __, Va. __ S.E.2d __,__ (2008). " The primary goal of every university is to educate, not regulate, its students."

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    DoubleR wrote:
    Hey, pb. As far as I know, VCU in Richmond is the only college in Virginia that has banned firearms.

    That's still in debate, depending on how you read the statute.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    Even then its not "illegal" for students, faculty or staff to carry. They just risk being expelled or fired from the school.

    It seems it would always be best, if in doubt, to contact the school and/or local police.

    Very good point, I was very careful not to say it was illegal, just that the college could deny access to students, faculty, and staff. I do believe the signage is illegal.

    My main problem is that I am an alumni, and I want to write and asked them what makes them think they can deny firearms.

    For example, if I go the Festival of Arts (http://www.sw.edu/SVCC_Festival_of_the_Arts/index.htm), will they try to make me leave?

    I'm working on a polite letter about the signs. I will see what I can come up with. I will post it here and copy Philip and John on it (I normally copy Mike on these issues, but John is a lot closer).


    Currently I'm going to send them the following:

    1) Preemption.
    2) The AG opinion.

    Seems lacking, but I will keep looking.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Also thought of giving examples of gun free zones - VT

    and

    Armed students - Bluefield College, which is not far from SVCC.

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    Regular Member fairfax1's Avatar
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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    George Mason University (8VAC35-60-20. Possession of weapons prohibited.) "Possession or carrying of any weapon by any person, except a police officer, is prohibited on university property in academic buildings, administrative office buildings, student residence buildings, and while attending sporting, entertainment or educational events. Entry upon the aforementioned university property in violation of this prohibition is expressly forbidden.

    Statutory Authority
    §23-91.29 of the Code of Virginia."

    See Also: George Mason University v. Floyd, __, Va. __ S.E.2d __,__ (2008). " The primary goal of every university is to educate, not regulate, its students."
    Is this actually enforceable against the community due to preemption and the AG opinion? If so, what is the penalty?

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    fairfax1 wrote:
    Is this actually enforceable against the community due to preemption and the AG opinion? If so, what is the penalty?
    No penalty. We tried to get a bill passed that would have put a bite into ignoring preemption, but it was defeated.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Just another sheeple pen provided to you by the feel-gooders in our society.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    Here's the Statutory Authority they are referecnceing, notice the date, I don't think they have the authority to keep non-faculty or students from carrying.

    "§ 23-91.29. Powers and duties of board generally; meetings; officers; executive committee.

    (a) The board of visitors shall be vested with all the rights and powers conferred by the provisions of this title insofar as the same are not inconsistent with the provisions of this chapter and the general laws of the Commonwealth.

    The board shall control and expend the funds of the University and any appropriation hereafter provided, and shall make all needful rules and regulations concerning the University, appoint the president, who shall be its chief executive officer, and all professors, teachers, staff members and agents, and fix their salaries, and generally direct the affairs of the University.

    (b) The board of visitors shall meet at the University once a year, and at such other times as they shall determine, the days of meetings to be fixed by them. Eight members shall constitute a quorum. At the first meeting after July 1, 1972, and every second year thereafter, they shall appoint from their own body a rector, who shall preside at their meetings, a secretary and a vice-rector. In the absence of the rector or vice-rector at any meeting, the secretary shall preside, and on the absence of all three, the board may appoint a pro tempore officer to preside. Any vacancies in the offices of rector, vice-rector or secretary may be filled by the board for the unexpired term. Special meetings of the board may be called by the rector or any three members. In either of such cases, notice of the time of meetings shall be given by the secretary to every member.

    (c) At every regular annual meeting of the board they may appoint an executive committee for the transaction of business in the recess of the board, not less than three nor more than five members, to serve for a period of one year or until the next regular annual meeting.

    (1972, c. 550.) "
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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    streetdoc wrote:
    Here's the Statutory Authority they are referecnceing, notice the date, I don't think they have the authority to keep non-faculty or students from carrying.

    "§ 23-91.29. Powers and duties of board generally; meetings; officers; executive committee.

    (a) The board of visitors shall be vested with all the rights and powers conferred by the provisions of this title insofar as the same are not inconsistent with the provisions of this chapter and the general laws of the Commonwealth.


    (1972, c. 550.) "
    I would think the bolded text is where they fall short. State preemption makes thier firearms prohibition "inconsistent withe the...general laws of the Commonwealth."
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    They cannot. They may try if they wish to finance you future.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Let's say there's a rock concert at the Patriot center. Last time I went to one there, they had those private security (yellow jacket) guys frisking on the way in. Granted, you could strap an AR15 to your back and they wouldn't find it, but that's beside the point. What's the case in this scenario?

    Is the Patriot center not state owned property? If it is, it appears that it's been rented for private use at the venue. Is there some provision that says "while state property is being leased/rented to a third party, the third party's imposed policy regulations take precedence over state laws applying to state property"?

    Is this triggered by me buying a ticket, which is really me waiving my rights? When I buy the ticket am I "agreeing to the terms and conditions of the third party"?


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Bill in VA wrote:
    Now I'm confused...are we still discussingSouthwest Community College (i.e, the topic's title?) Or George Mason University?
    What's to say that hasn't already been said on college carry laws/rules/statute ad nasium. A student or staff violating the dictum may be only expelled or fired but is not in violation of law. A private citizen peacefully going about his or her business while OCing or CCing is legal carring on all campuses except possibly VCU and that is still being debated. No one wants to be a test case.

    An OPs statement starts a new "thread" which weaves its merry way across the fabric of this site. Occassionally we "drop a stitch" and the postings do wander a bit - all things related are normally considered hits in fair territory.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Bill in VA wrote:
    It was a rhetorical question, Grapeshot, but thanks for explaining how a threaded discussion forum works.

    My point beingthatsince there are threads about GMU (for example: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=54 http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=54 http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=54 Plus a whole board dedicated specificallyto GMU: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum64/ ) why not keep this one on topic and about the VA Community College System, particulary abouT SVCC.

    I understand. We are to some large degree self-moderating except more flagrant violations of rules. The owners of OCDO tried dividing up the responsibilities and lost contol. It is a virtual impossibility to moderate every post. As a consequence, there is a certain relaxation of on target requirements (Like this posting.) and multiple threads do appear - we try to link them though.

    The General Assembly neeeds to understand that anything less than allowing all legal citizens the ability to defend themselves with what they carry on all campuses in Virginia is unaceptable.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    The General Assembly neeeds to understand that anything less than allowing all legal citizens the ability to defend themselves with what they carry on all campuses in Virginia is unaceptable.

    Yata hey
    Edit:
    The General Assembly neeeds to understand that anything less than allowing all legal citizens the ability to defend themselves with what they carry on all public campuses in Virginia is unaceptable.
    Now we can be in agreement.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Sent this email:



    I was recently visiting the area and decided to show my wife where I started my college career.



    As I turned onto the college campus, one of the first signs I say was an illegal “No firearms allowed on college property” sign.



    Under Virginia’s preemption, you are not allowed to prevent citizens from lawfully carrying on college property. You can deny the ability of faculty, staff, and students to defend themselves while on campus, but it is not illegal (against VA state law) for anyone to carry on campus. Colleges can only prevent faculty, staff, and students from carrying, and has no authority to prohibit the carry of firearms either openly or conceal with a permit by others.



    Here is Virginia’s preemption law regarding firearms.

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies. (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915)

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

    B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

    (1987, c. 629, § 15.1-29.15; 1988, c. 392; 1997, cc. 550, 587; 2002, c. 484; 2003, c. 943; 2004, cc. 837, 923.)

    Also, the AG opinion supports the college’s denial of the ability for faculty, staff, and students to defend themselves, but the opinion also states “The universal prohibition of firearms by properly permitted persons other than students, faculty, administration, or employees, however, is not allowed under law.” (http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/OP-05-078.pdf)



    Creating gun-free zones has been a failure on Virginia’s college campuses. While allowing carry by students has prevented mass shootings. Students at the Appalachian School of Law (just a short distance from SwVCC) subdued a shooter on campus.



    I look forward to updates on how you plan to resolve the issue of having illegal “NO FIREARMS” signs on campus. Also, I do not know if the email addresses I found on the website are the correct contacts for addressing this situation. Please inform me if these are the correct contacts, or forward to and provide me the correct contacts.



    If you have any questions, please let me know. I will be happy to provide you with assistance.

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    Please post the response if any that you get.

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    Nice letter

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