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Thread: Fully loaded OC without a CFP

  1. #1
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    My brother-in-law was asking some questions over the weekend that got me to thinking...

    The normal opinion about unlicensed OC in Utah is that you must carry "Utah-unloaded", but I don't think that's what the law actually says.

    The law says that it's unlawful to carry a loaded gun (a) in or on a vehicle, (b) on a public street; or (c) in a posted prohibited area. Does that not mean that it's perfectly legal to OC loaded without a permit when you're (a) on foot, (b) not on a public street; and (c) not in a posted prohibited area?

    So you should be able to OC loaded in a grocery store, or a mall, or just about anywhere else that's either private property or public property but not a street (e.g. a city park).

    It might be a bit impractical to OC fully loaded while staying within the bounds of the law, because you'd have to unload to get in the car, and load after you get out. People might -- quite understandably, IMO -- get freaked about seeing someone hop out of their car in a grocery store parking lot, draw, rack and re-holster before walking in.

    Also, I think the meme that "No CFP" == "Must be unloaded" is pretty firmly established in the minds of local law enforcement, and if you got detained for some reason OC'ing fully loaded without a CFP, you may well get charged even if you're not on the street.

    Comments?

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    10-15-3. Definitions.
    As used in this chapter:
    (1) (a) "Intersection street" means any street which meets or crosses a pedestrian mall at a mall intersection but includes only those portions thereof on either side of the mall intersection which lie between the mall intersection and the first intersection of the intersecting street with a public street or highway open to vehicular traffic. If any portion of a pedestrian mall terminates on a street at a place thereon other than at a place of intersection with a public street or highway open to vehicular traffic, such intersecting street shall also include that portion of any street which lies between such place of termination and the first intersection of such street with the public street or highway open to vehicular traffic.
    (b) "Intersecting street" also includes any other street or portion of a street which the legislative body declares to be such by resolution.
    (2) "Legislative body" means the legislative body of the municipality.
    (3) "Mall intersection" means any intersection of a street constituting a part of a pedestrian mall with any street which intersection is itself part of a pedestrian mall.
    (4) "Municipality" includes every city or town within this state.
    (5) "Pedestrian mall" means one or more streets or portions thereof, on which vehicular traffic is, or is to be, restricted in whole or in part and which is, or is to be, used exclusively or primarily for pedestrian travel.
    (6) "Street" means any public road, street, highway, alley, lane, court, way, or place of any nature open to the use of the public, excluding state highways.

    Amended by Chapter 10, 1997 General Session


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    Good point, TJ. That might seem to exclude city parks. I'm not so sure about private property, however.

    Also, there's a question about whether or not that definition of street applies to Title 76, since it says:

    10-15-3. Definitions.
    As used in this chapter:
    Particularly since that law about pedestrian malls (10-15) is considerably newer than the law restricting loaded carry.

    Edit: Upon further reflection, it occurs to me that interpreting "street" to include ANY area open to the public would mean that it's illegal to carry fully-loaded while hunting on public land, unless you have a CFP. So I think it would be very hard to argue that "street" means any area open to the public.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I posed this same question last year.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/4795.html

    10-15-3 was brought up last time, but I don't believe it appliesto loaded OC. Note that in 10-15-3 it states "As used in this chapter:". To me, that means it only applies to pedestrian malls.

    I am with swillden on this one. I believe that it means exactly what it says. However, I also believe that it has been drilled into everyone's mind, including LEO's, to mean no loaded OC period.

    Just another stupid law that needs to disappear with the gun free school zone laws. Can you imagine applying both of these laws without a permit? OH NO! School zone, gotta lock the case... OK, no longer on a public street, time to chamber a round... Damn, gotta unload to drive home.


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    I posed this same question last year.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/4795.html

    10-15-3 was brought up last time, but I don't believe it appliesto loaded OC. Note that in 10-15-3 it states "As used in this chapter:". To me, that means it only applies to pedestrian malls.

    I am with swillden on this one. I believe that it means exactly what it says. However, I also believe that it has been drilled into everyone's mind, including LEO's, to mean no loaded OC period.

    Just another stupid law that needs to disappear with the gun free school zone laws. Can you imagine applying both of these laws without a permit? OH NO! School zone, gotta lock the case... OK, no longer on a public street, time to chamber a round... Damn, gotta unload to drive home.


    ROFL It's nice to have a laugh after a hard day at the plant.

    Kevin

    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    Since most people live/work/spend most their time in restricted areas (aka in a city or town) no permit = no loaded is easy to understand. It has been discussed a few times that you can carry loaded on private property (with permission if not your property). If No permit really meant not loaded you couldn’t even go out west to shoot as at one point your gun would be loaded.

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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    Since most people live/work/spend most their time in restricted areas (aka in a city or town) no permit = no loaded is easy to understand. It has been discussed a few times that you can carry loaded on private property (with permission if not your property). If No permit really meant not loaded you couldn’t even go out west to shoot as at one point your gun would be loaded.
    I think you may be missing the point xmirage.

    There's nothing in the law that prohibits carrying fully loaded without a permit in a city or a town, or on others' private property without permission.

    The law does restrict carrying fully loaded in a vehicle or on a public street, but it makes no difference if the vehicle or street is in town or in the sticks. And it does restrict carrying at all (loaded or not, permit or not) in private residences where the owner has told you not to.

    But AFAICT, you can carry fully loaded, without a permit, in Wally World.

    SGT Jensen's points about the difficulty of managing your gun's state to stay legal as you move around and the fact that everyone, including LEOs, "knows" that it's illegal are valid practical considerations, but don't affect the legality.

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    Well Swiliden, if you want to handle your firearm in public view that often to load and unload then be my guest.

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    sfemti33 wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Well Swiliden, if you want to handle your firearm in public view that often to load and unload then be my guest.
    So glad he has the permission of the all knowing dave. What would he do without you?
    Oh great, here we go again. What did I do this time? Am I not entitled to an opinion?

    I did not disagree with him, in fact I agreed with him that it is legal. I offered a view point, in a non condescending manner, that he can do that all he wants but doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

    In the future, could you possibly try and have a reasonable conversation with me without jumping down my throat? I don't care if you think that calling me the "all knowing Dave" doesn't offend me, but it does.... so stop it.

    I haven't attacked you since the other thread was closed, in fact, I replied to you in a nice manner in THX's thread.

    All I ask is that you have the common courtesy to do the same.

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    By definition a street is;

    "street
    (strt)

    n.
    1.
    a. Abbr. St. A public way or thoroughfare in a city or town, usually with a sidewalk or sidewalks."

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/street

    A public street is one that is open to the public, as compared toa private street, which is not.


    The following are the Utah codes that make reference to "public street"



    1
    10-9a-208 Hearing and notice for proposal to vacate, alter, or amend a public street or right-of-way.

    2
    10-9a-407 Effect of official maps.

    3
    10-15-3 Definitions.

    4
    13-43-203 Office of the Property Rights Ombudsman -- Duties.

    5
    17-27a-208 Hearing and notice for proposal to vacate, alter, or amend a public street or right-of-way.

    6
    17-27a-407 Effect of official maps.

    7
    17B-1-103 Local district status and powers.

    8
    34-19-2 Injunctive relief prohibited in certain cases.

    9
    76-8-801 Definitions.

    10
    76-10-505 Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.




    None of these define a public street, but only refer to them.

    According toUtahCode, the only places off limits to open carry in Utah are;

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.

    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a
    postedprohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.




    Cross references are below;





    53-5-710. Cross-references to concealed firearm permit restrictions.

    A person with a permit to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm in the following locations:
    (1) any secure 76-10-523.5 in which firearms are 76-10-529; or
    (3) in any house of worship or in any private residence where dangerous weapons are 76-10-530.




    76-10-523.5. Compliance with rules for secure facilities.

    Any person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm under Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapons, shall comply with any rule established for secure facilities pursuant to Sections 53B-3-103, 76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3, and 78A-2-203 and shall be subject to any penalty provided in those sections.




    [font="Times New Roman"][size=3][font="Times New Roman"][size=3][font="Times New Roman"][size=3]Swillden is exactly right, so you folks in Utah....Open Carry away.




    Tarzan






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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Well Swiliden, if you want to handle your firearm in public view that often to load and unload then be my guest.
    I have a CFP, so it's not an issue for me.

    Just trying to understand exactly what is and is not legal.

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    swillden wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    Well Swiliden, if you want to handle your firearm in public view that often to load and unload then be my guest.
    I have a CFP, so it's not an issue for me.

    Just trying to understand exactly what is and is not legal.
    Ya I know you do. I just meant that I wouldn't be comfortable taking my gun out of the holster that often in view of the public. Like I said, maybe that's something you want to do, so its all thumbs up from me buddy.

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    Ya - i hate it too, but if thats the law, its the law. nothing I (personally) can do until i get the permit. sux.

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