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Thread: Amazing Results of a Shooting.

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    http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...h-adversaries/

    Terminal Ballistics, Shot Placement, and Tough Adversaries…
    July 28th, 2008


    What is the best handgun cartridge and bullet design for you to carry on the street?

    My standard response to this question is to carry the largest caliber, with the heaviest bullet, loaded as hot as you can handle it in order to deliver two, quick center of mass shots… and have the skills to be able to follow up with a precise shot to the cranio-ocular cavity (between the eyebrows and moustache) when the first two thoracic cavity hits don’t stop an extremely dedicated opponent.

    This week’s blog post brings bullet design theory, ballistic gelatin testing, and the realities (and variables) of shooting a dedicated human opponent all together for your experience and education…

    The first photo I want you study is the terminal ballistics of various handgun cartridges when shot into ballistic gelatin.



    Ballistic gelatin is designed to approximate, as closely as possible, the terminal resistance that a bullet encounters when it strikes human flesh. Unfortunately, ballistic gelatin does not have bone structure, joints, nervous system reaction, circulatory hydraulic reaction, movement, or the will to fight. These are just a few of the variables encountered when you use a gun against a human adversary.

    Note that every cartridge tested penetrates over 12 inches, but take a look at the wound channels. Do you see a difference?

    The bigger the wound channel, the more damage and the more likely you are to adversely affect bones, joints, the nervous system and circulatory hydraulics — all of which lead to incapacitating your opponent so he stops fighting. Clearly the larger calibers perform best.

    Who would chose a 9mm over the larger, more powerful calibers? Our military servicemen have been asking that question every since the government switched from the proven, battle tested 1911 in .45ACP to the Beretta 9mm. Sometimes, decisions are made based on factors other than what works best…

    From this photo, if you are choosing a concealed carry handgun simply on the merit what works best in ballistic gelatin, then the best choices are clearly defined.

    However, in a real gunfight, you can throw all of the theory and ballistic gelatin testing out the window, because MINDSET and TRAINING trumps equipment every time. And I’m referring to the mindset and training of both YOU and YOUR OPPONENT.

    On the street, he who hits first with the most, wins. Shot placement is EVERYTHING. A disciplined and dedicated fighter with any weapon is superior to Joe Average Citizen who just took a one day CCW Course at his local gun range but does not have the mindset or ability to finish the fight.

    Want proof? Take a look at this report from the FBI after some misinformation regarding an officer involved shooting was disseminated on web forums.

    Note that the National Tactical Officer’s Association Blog Post was in error regarding the performance of the handgun rounds and thus created the FBI investigation and their subsequent report.

    Pay close attention to the following facts:

    1. Range was 20 feet.

    2. Three officers involved.

    3. One adversary, 18 years old.

    4. Officers used M4s with 55 grain and 75 grain .223 ammunition and Glock 22’s with Speer 180 grain Gold Dot ammunition.

    5. Adversary used .45 ACP handgun.

    6. Trace amounts of marijuana in adversary’s system.

    7. 107 rounds fired by two officers with 17 rounds striking adversary (16% hit ratio).

    8. Of the 17 hits, 11 created exit wounds.

    9. NO HEAD SHOT DELIVERED by officers at range of 20 feet from either their rifles or handguns.

    10. Adversary fired 26 rounds and reloaded magazine from a box of loose ammunition.

    11. Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes.

    12. When adversary was no longer able to return fire, officers still had to “fight” to get him handcuffed.

    13. Interesting tattoos on very dedicated adversary.

    14. I would add under the FBI’s Lessons Learned Section that when you do not inflict immediate, incapacitating damage to your adversary, you often create a “Superman Effect” in your adversary from the normal physiologic response to significant, but non-life threatening injury.

    I experienced this myself when I broke both arms in an all terrain vehicle accident 20 years ago. I distinctly remember looking at both wrists, twisted and broken, but remarkably felt NO PAIN. I was so surprised by the lack of pain that I actually shook the wrists a bit in disbelief! I then crossed my arms, holding the wrists close to my body for support, and JOGGED back toward camp for several minutes before the pain began and then quickly intensified to the point where any movement of my body was extremely painful. It is during this brief but significant period of NO PAIN that your adversary can fight you like a “Superman” even though you may be continuing to deliver hits to his body.

    The answer to such a dangerous opponent is the cranio-ocular shot. You must have the mindset and ability to slow down and deliver a dedicated shot to the area between your opponent’s eyebrows and moustache to end the fight. If you are so inclined, Front Sight can train and ingrain you to do so.

    Here is the very interesting and educational FBI Report:

    WARNING: Graphic autopsy photos contained within the report.





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    I have seen that photo dozens of times, and it is a good one... Would like to see what I carry added in there...

    As to the incident. I would like to know where the man was hit. Said 17 times, but how many were torso?

    On another note... 107 rounds and only 17 hits? Another confirmation that LEOs are usually not very good shots.

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    Funny that you bring up this picture. I just sent it to my friend last night. We were having a nice talk about the stopping power of a .40 vs .45 ACP.

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    It looks like this shows the .40 expanding very fast in the first 4 inches, where the .45 holds a little longer and expands later inside the cavity.



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    David.Car wrote:
    I have seen that photo dozens of times, and it is a good one... Would like to see what I carry added in there...

    As to the incident. I would like to know where the man was hit. Said 17 times, but how many were torso?

    On another note... 107 rounds and only 17 hits? Another confirmation that LEOs are usually not very good shots.
    Open the PDF near the end of the article and you will see the hits. X-rays and photos of the body on the table. Once again the shooting stunk by swat cops, over 100 ronds fired and only 17 hits. The 223 did not get the job done.

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    Most instructors do say that underfire your luck to hit 50% of what you hit at the range. But your right 17% is very poor shooting at that distance.

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    No holes in the center of his torso either... looks like possibly two upper torso hits but both on extreme sides (outside of lung range). Lot of shots in pelvic region, than rest in extremities...

    I'm not surprised he was still fighting. Easy to die from loss of blood from those hits, but they were all superficial tissue and bone damage, not organ hits...

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    So for the simple minded........are they more likely to die from a .40 or a 045acp? Understanding that shot placement is key.

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    One thing I think they should have said in the article is that trauma is the key to stopping an attacker. A .45 is going to cause more trauma to the body than a .40. I am sure Bear can attest to the fact that one of the first things trauma Dr.'s want to know about a shooting victim is what kind of bullet was the person shot with. Obviously they would rather hear that the person was hit with a 9mm than a .45 simply due to the fact that a .45 delivers much more energy as well as a larger wound channel.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I guess the other lesson it shows is how much punishment you can take in a gun fight with a criminal and still possibly prevail.

    You might end up in the hospital for months, but your family would be safe.

    Like some of the defense experts tell you. Keep fighting, even if you're hit. Don't give in; don't give up.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The part that backs up my feelings on the 223 as a non-effectiveround forman sized targets is 17 hits and not stopping the guy. The 40 calibers round didn't impress me either with only 1" to 2" penetration with only a down vest as additional clothing. Maybe if there wasn't a spray and pray fest and someone took a second to aim one shot, this thing would of ended sooner.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP The 40 calibers round didn't impress me either with only 1" to 2" penetration with only a down vest as additional clothing.
    This caught my attention, too.

    I don't understand how 1-2" penetration at twenty feet is acceptable to the FBI. I'm not saying they're wrong; I just don't understand it. It feels like I'm missing something.

    I wonder if it is the down jacket. I've heard that turkeys can be hard to kill because getting shot through the feathers is difficult. Something to the effect that feathers make for good resistance. Don't know if there is any truth to that.

    He did take ashot in the throat that didn't seem topenetrate far. I'm guessing that wouldn't have had to go through a jacket, depending on the angle.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I believe your right. Stunt people use air filled bags to dispurse energy a lot like an airbag in a car. A down filled jack could do the same thing with the quilting the makes a whole lot of "pillows" that could act as mini airbags.

    It would be interesting to test the theory.

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    Triple Tap wrote:
    I believe your right. Stunt people use air filled bags to dispurse energy a lot like an airbag in a car. A down filled jack could do the same thing with the quilting the makes a whole lot of "pillows" that could act as mini airbags.

    It would be interesting to test the theory.
    According to my Uncle, when he served in Korea there was only one weapon that would drop the BGs every time. The Thompson sub gun. He said it didn't matter what they were wearing, they went down and stayed there. Probably why I like big slow bullets for self defense (45 ACP or 44 Special).

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    That is why I carry a 45 ACP. Like my grandfather, who was in Korea used to say... "You can hit a guy in the hand with a 45, and he will go down... Done it a few time myself..."

    I would prefer, if I ever needed to put lead on target, that the target was not going to get up after one or two rounds. The faster you get the threat down, the sooner it is no longer a threat. The less lead you have flying around, the less likely you are to hit someone or something else in the process, and then be in a legal world of hurt. I am not sure that there are many people out that that could take a double tap from a 45 ACP and keep advancing, not even people that are in a drug induced craze.

    In the military we used the M9, and I would not want to have to get into a gun fight while hiting someone with that. My branch recently went away from the M9 and went to the SIG P229 .40, which was a far better round to stop a threat. I never to go to qualify with the 229, as I left the service, but from what I heard it was a far easier weapon to use, and shoot than the M9 was.

    This is why I will always carry my 1911, little heavy, but worth not having to send an entire magazine down range to put a threat down...



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    amazing pic dose a great job of spelling it out for you, a buddy of mine is always making fun of me beacuse a I carry a .40 not a .45 but it dosnt look like there that much of a diffrence
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    fire suppressor wrote:
    amazing pic dose a great job of spelling it out for you, a buddy of mine is always making fun of me beacuse a I carry a .40 not a .45 but it dosnt look like there that much of a diffrence
    How do you figure that? The bad guy hit one cop in the forearm with one roundand the copwas out of the fight. How many 40 cal. hits didthe Bad guy take? He wasstill in the fight and on top of that, stillstanding.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    fire suppressor wrote:
    amazing pic dose a great job of spelling it out for you, a buddy of mine is always making fun of me beacuse a I carry a .40 not a .45 but it dosnt look like there that much of a diffrence
    How do you figure that? The bad guy hit one cop in the forearm with one roundand the copwas out of the fight. How many 40 cal. hits didthe Bad guy take? He wasstill in the fight and on top of that, stillstanding.
    +1

    More lead + slower velocity=More Energy transfer.... The 45 ACP is 50gr heavier than the 180gr 40 and 125fps slower... There are times, that the 45 will actually start to tumble in flight, causing more damage then if it hits point first... The 45, having more mass and surface area is going to transfer more energy to the target, providing more shock. The balistics gelatin doesnt do a good job of showing the energy transfer, just the cavity created by the round during expansion...

    Its like taking a hammer, if you swing a standard hammer at a nail high speed you will drive the nail in... But if you drop a 8lb sledge on the same nail with less velocity there will be a greater transfer of energy into the nail, allowing you to drive the nail in with less strikes...

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    MadHatter66 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    fire suppressor wrote:
    amazing pic dose a great job of spelling it out for you, a buddy of mine is always making fun of me beacuse a I carry a .40 not a .45 but it dosnt look like there that much of a diffrence
    How do you figure that? The bad guy hit one cop in the forearm with one roundand the copwas out of the fight. How many 40 cal. hits didthe Bad guy take? He wasstill in the fight and on top of that, stillstanding.
    +1

    More lead + slower velocity=More Energy transfer.... The 45 ACP is 50gr heavier than the 180gr 40 and 125fps slower... There are times, that the 45 will actually start to tumble in flight, causing more damage then if it hits point first... The 45, having more mass and surface area is going to transfer more energy to the target, providing more shock. The balistics gelatin doesnt do a good job of showing the energy transfer, just the cavity created by the round during expansion...

    Its like taking a hammer, if you swing a standard hammer at a nail high speed you will drive the nail in... But if you drop a 8lb sledge on the same nail with less velocity there will be a greater transfer of energy into the nail, allowing you to drive the nail in with less strikes...
    You just made one of the best caseswhy a 9mm or a 40 cal are not enough gun for self defense I have ever heard. I really liked your analogy with the hammer. BTW, I hunt with 405 grain lead bullets with my 45/70 and the big slow bullet stuff works.

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    MadHatter66 wrote:
    Its like taking a hammer, if you swing a standard hammer at a nail high speed you will drive the nail in... But if you drop a 8lb sledge on the same nail with less velocity there will be a greater transfer of energy into the nail, allowing you to drive the nail in with less strikes...
    So that comparison is like the .22 vs a 12 guage slug?

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    David.Car wrote:
    MadHatter66 wrote:
    Its like taking a hammer, if you swing a standard hammer at a nail high speed you will drive the nail in... But if you drop a 8lb sledge on the same nail with less velocity there will be a greater transfer of energy into the nail, allowing you to drive the nail in with less strikes...
    So that comparison is like the .22 vs a 12 guage slug?
    Wll, the lastest termial ballistic tests show a lot deeper penetration in large diameter bullets when fired at slow to moderate velocities.

    http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm


    Penetration: the 45-70 & 458 Magnums Randy Garrett



    The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers).

    Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have

    chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the

    characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities

    inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics.

    Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the

    terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh.



    There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

    Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

    Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

    What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop[/i]. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However there is no evidence that such developments are soon to appear.



    Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70’s "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.






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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.
    I wonder if it is anything like what happens to an aircraft as it approaches the speed of sound? Just a different medium than air.

    Also, many years ago artillerists discovered that no matter how much powder they put behind the cannon-ball, they could only achieve a certain max distance. Adding powder did not increase the distance once a certain charge/distance was reached. The effect was later determined to be caused by something having to do with the speed of sound as a threshold or limiting factor. Not the speed itself, of course, but something about the medium (air) when an object was trying to pass through it at that speed or greater.

    I wonder if there is a characteristic of water's resistance to being parted that creates a threshold velocity where trying to go faster increases the mechanical resistance. Sort of like, the harder the water is pushed aside, the harder it resists being pushed aside.

    I'lljust bet.

    Also, water is not as compressible as air. Which I'm guessing is really what is happening as the bullet passes through. Its trying to compress the water right around the front of itas it moves through.

    I'll bet that's it. The water can move out of the way at lower velocities as the molecules bang into each other heading out from the bullet's tip and front curve.Water is not particularly compressible. So you reach a point where it can't move out of the way but so fast because of its density and mass. And it can't compress but so much. I'll bet its connected to how fast water can move or be shoved aside. After that you are trying to compress the water, since it can't move out of the way any faster.

    Its the water's resistance to compression.

    Good. Next physics problem.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.

    I wonder if it is anything like what happens to an aircraft as it approaches the speed of sound? Just a different medium than air.

    Also, many years ago artillerists discovered that no matter how much powder they put behind the cannon-ball, they could only achieve a certain max distance. Adding powder did not increase the distance once a certain charge/distance was reached. The effect was later determined to be caused by something having to do with the speed of sound as a threshold or limiting factor. Not the speed itself, of course, but something about the medium (air) when an object was trying to pass through it at that speed or greater.

    I wonder if there is a characteristic of water's resistance to being parted that creates a threshold velocity where trying to go faster increases the mechanical resistance. Sort of like, the harder the water is pushed aside, the harder it resists being pushed aside.

    I'lljust bet.
    I asked my youngest daughter's physic teacher about it once. He supposed that if the bullet is travelling faster than the shock wave can move through the medium it is moving in, then the shockwave would be denser and slow the bullet faster. No proof of this but he was way smarter than I'll ever be in physics.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.

    I wonder if it is anything like what happens to an aircraft as it approaches the speed of sound? Just a different medium than air.

    Also, many years ago artillerists discovered that no matter how much powder they put behind the cannon-ball, they could only achieve a certain max distance. Adding powder did not increase the distance once a certain charge/distance was reached. The effect was later determined to be caused by something having to do with the speed of sound as a threshold or limiting factor. Not the speed itself, of course, but something about the medium (air) when an object was trying to pass through it at that speed or greater.

    I wonder if there is a characteristic of water's resistance to being parted that creates a threshold velocity where trying to go faster increases the mechanical resistance. Sort of like, the harder the water is pushed aside, the harder it resists being pushed aside.

    I'lljust bet.
    I asked my youngest daughter's physic teacher about it once. He supposed that if the bullet is travelling faster than the shock wave can move through the medium it is moving in, then the shockwave would be denser and slow the bullet faster. No proof of this but he was way smarter than I'll ever be in physics.
    I think we're saying the same thing just using different words.

    Its not really a matter of smarts. In this case its just a matter of knocking the first molecule into the next, which in turn hits the next...and following that little logic chain along. I just happened to remember that water isn't particularly compressible.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    SNIP The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.

    I wonder if it is anything like what happens to an aircraft as it approaches the speed of sound? Just a different medium than air.

    Also, many years ago artillerists discovered that no matter how much powder they put behind the cannon-ball, they could only achieve a certain max distance. Adding powder did not increase the distance once a certain charge/distance was reached. The effect was later determined to be caused by something having to do with the speed of sound as a threshold or limiting factor. Not the speed itself, of course, but something about the medium (air) when an object was trying to pass through it at that speed or greater.

    I wonder if there is a characteristic of water's resistance to being parted that creates a threshold velocity where trying to go faster increases the mechanical resistance. Sort of like, the harder the water is pushed aside, the harder it resists being pushed aside.

    I'lljust bet.
    I asked my youngest daughter's physic teacher about it once. He supposed that if the bullet is travelling faster than the shock wave can move through the medium it is moving in, then the shockwave would be denser and slow the bullet faster. No proof of this but he was way smarter than I'll ever be in physics.
    I think we're saying the same thing just using different words.

    Its not really a matter of smarts. In this case its just a matter of knocking the first molecule into the next, which in turn hits the next...and following that little logic chain along. I just happened to remember that water isn't particularly compressible.
    Live bodies, human or other creatures are mostly water.

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