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Thread: Clark County Fair

  1. #1
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    So I got to thinking about hitting up the fair this weekend. Being the LAC that I am, I decided to check up on any 'restrictions'.

    From the county Website:

    The Clark County Event Center at the Fairgrounds is located just west of the I-5/179th Street interchange near Ridgefield, Washington. The property is owned by Clark County and managed by the Fairgrounds Site Management Group (FSMG). Quincunx manages the Clark County Amphitheater on adjacent property.
    Neither the Event Center website, nor the website for the Fair proper has anything to say about firearms. Now, given state pre-emption and the fact that the grounds are clearly "owned by Clark County" one would think that they would be in the clear to carry.

    However it's the whole 'managed by the Fairgrounds Site Management Group' bit that gives me pause. The Event Center website states:

    Clark County contracts with the Fairgrounds Site Management Group to operate and market the facility.
    (my emphasis)

    Since the grounds are not leased out to the FSMG, then it would stand to reason that a PNSPA vs Sequim situation would not apply. Indeed, they are being paid to run the facility, not payING for use of the grounds. Since one cannot generally delegate/bestow rights, powers or authorities to another that one does not possess themselves, logic would seem to hold that the states preemption would carry over from the County to the FSMG, yes?

    Indeed State law specifically adresses Fairs:

    RCW 70.108.020 Definitions.

    For the purposes of this chapter the following words and phrases shall have the indicated meanings:

    (1) "Outdoor music festival" or "music festival" or "festival" means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance is two thousand persons or more and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer: PROVIDED, That this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people the maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held: PROVIDED, FURTHER, That this definition shall not apply to government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state.
    Can anyone here find fault with my logic?:?

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Can anyone here find fault with my logic?:?
    Simply put, yes.

    This is the same arguement that Seattle uses to disallow firearms at both Safeco Field and Qwest Stadium. They contract out management to other companies that then ban firearms and do illegal searches of persons and affects entering the establishment.

    Is it legal? I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure either way.

    Is it right? HELL NO!

    I think in the case of the fairgrounds, if you can find something online from the management company regarding their policy and it doesn't say anything about firearms, then you're in the clear. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to be a test case.
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    just_a_car wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    Can anyone here find fault with my logic?:?
    Simply put, yes.

    This is the same arguement that Seattle uses to disallow firearms at both Safeco Field and Qwest Stadium. They contract out management to other companies that then ban firearms and do illegal searches of persons and affects entering the establishment.
    AH...but I was under the impression that they were LEASED TO the operators in those instances. This would make them the effective 'owner' of the property and allow them to set their own rules. The Event Center site specifically states that the FSMG is CONTRACTED to operate the grounds. Seems to me that 'contracting a service' is quite a different matter than 'leasing a property'.

    Also, neither Safco, nor Qwest are 'regularly established fairgrounds' where 'government sponsored fairs' are held. (RCW 70.108.120)

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    I remember going to the Clark County Fair 2 years ago and they had "No Weapons" signs all over the parking lot so just left mine in locked up in my car before going in. It's not right, but I was with my wife and kids and sometimes you just have to pick your battles. I'll be going today and will probably end up doing the same thing.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    Phssthpok wrote:
    Can anyone here find fault with my logic?:?
    Simply put, yes.

    This is the same arguement that Seattle uses to disallow firearms at both Safeco Field and Qwest Stadium. They contract out management to other companies that then ban firearms and do illegal searches of persons and affects entering the establishment.

    Is it legal? I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure either way.

    Is it right? HELL NO!

    I think in the case of the fairgrounds, if you can find something online from the management company regarding their policy and it doesn't say anything about firearms, then you're in the clear. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to be a test case.
    Contract out or lease the facility? There is a major difference. When you lease something is isdefacto now yours and you "own it". But contracting amanagement group to run something usually means the owner pays them to run it for them and they don't "own" anything.

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    Regardless of whether it is leased or contracted management does not matter. For pre-emption to take effect the municipality must operate the venue. Having said that the fairgrounds hardly qualify as a stadium or convention center so the municipality would not be able to restrict firearms at the fair grounds anyway.

    The contract in this instance more than likely deals with how much the management company would charge to run it for them and they do have the ability, if it is a convention center or stadium, to restrict firearms because the municipality does not operate it.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    sailor628 wrote:
    I remember going to the Clark County Fair 2 years ago and they had "No Weapons" signs all over the parking lot so just left mine in locked up in my car before going in. It's not right, but I was with my wife and kids and sometimes you just have to pick your battles. I'll be going today and will probably end up doing the same thing.
    Strange. Gun show is there in Oct. They have about 2 per year.

    http://collectorswest.com/pages/schedule.html

    October 4-5 VANCOUVER, WA Clark County Fairgrounds –
    17402 NE Delfel Road – I-5 Exit #9
    Sat. 9-5, Sun. 9-3 - Adm: $7

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    bcp wrote:

    sailor628 wrote:
    I remember going to the Clark County Fair 2 years ago and they had "No Weapons" signs all over the parking lot so just left mine in locked up in my car before going in. It's not right, but I was with my wife and kids and sometimes you just have to pick your battles. I'll be going today and will probably end up doing the same thing.
    Strange. Gun show is there in Oct. They have about 2 per year.

    http://collectorswest.com/pages/schedule.html

    October 4-5 VANCOUVER, WA Clark County Fairgrounds –
    17402 NE Delfel Road – I-5 Exit #9
    Sat. 9-5, Sun. 9-3 - Adm: $7
    Most gun shows are exempt from these rules because they are structured and controlled events with rules and regulations themselves.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    bcp wrote:

    sailor628 wrote:
    I remember going to the Clark County Fair 2 years ago and they had "No Weapons" signs all over the parking lot so just left mine in locked up in my car before going in. It's not right, but I was with my wife and kids and sometimes you just have to pick your battles. I'll be going today and will probably end up doing the same thing.
    Strange. Gun show is there in Oct. They have about 2 per year.

    http://collectorswest.com/pages/schedule.html

    October 4-5 VANCOUVER, WA Clark County Fairgrounds –
    17402 NE Delfel Road – I-5 Exit #9
    Sat. 9-5, Sun. 9-3 - Adm: $7
    Most gun shows are exempt from these rules because they are structured and controlled events with rules and regulations themselves.
    And I suppose that state law isn't structured and has rules and regulations? Their logic or lack of logic defies explaination. I get the feeling they do it because it is PC.AnythingPC is a good reason not to do it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Phssthpok wrote:
    So I got to thinking about hitting up the fair this weekend. Being the LAC that I am, I decided to check up on any 'restrictions'.

    From the county Website:

    The Clark County Event Center at the Fairgrounds is located just west of the I-5/179th Street interchange near Ridgefield, Washington. The property is owned by Clark County and managed by the Fairgrounds Site Management Group (FSMG). Quincunx manages the Clark County Amphitheater on adjacent property.
    Neither the Event Center website, nor the website for the Fair proper has anything to say about firearms. Now, given state pre-emption and the fact that the grounds are clearly "owned by Clark County" one would think that they would be in the clear to carry.

    However it's the whole 'managed by the Fairgrounds Site Management Group' bit that gives me pause. The Event Center website states:

    Clark County contracts with the Fairgrounds Site Management Group to operate and market the facility.
    (my emphasis)

    Since the grounds are not leased out to the FSMG, then it would stand to reason that a PNSPA vs Sequim situation would not apply. Indeed, they are being paid to run the facility, not payING for use of the grounds. Since one cannot generally delegate/bestow rights, powers or authorities to another that one does not possess themselves, logic would seem to hold that the states preemption would carry over from the County to the FSMG, yes?

    Indeed State law specifically adresses Fairs:

    RCW 70.108.020 Definitions.

    For the purposes of this chapter the following words and phrases shall have the indicated meanings:

    (1) "Outdoor music festival" or "music festival" or "festival" means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance is two thousand persons or more and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer: PROVIDED, That this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people the maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held: PROVIDED, FURTHER, That this definition shall not apply to government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state.
    Can anyone here find fault with my logic?:?
    Is this the same issue folks are seeing with the Skagit County Fairgrounds?

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/14421.html
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  11. #11
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    As I posted on the other thread. Skagit County is for a fact a County,owned and operated fair. The fair manager is hired and paid by the county commissioners and the fair board.

    The question for other fairs is are they owned and managed by the county or a vendor or firm. That seems to be the issue which decides. ???????

  12. #12
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    ghosthunter wrote:
    As I posted on the other thread. Skagit County is for a fact a County,owned and operated fair. The fair manager is hired and paid by the county commissioners and the fair board.

    The question for other fairs is are they owned and managed by the county or a vendor or firm. That seems to be the issue which decides. ???????
    Got it! Thanks
    Im proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    bcp wrote:

    sailor628 wrote:
    I remember going to the Clark County Fair 2 years ago and they had "No Weapons" signs all over the parking lot so just left mine in locked up in my car before going in. It's not right, but I was with my wife and kids and sometimes you just have to pick your battles. I'll be going today and will probably end up doing the same thing.
    Strange. Gun show is there in Oct. They have about 2 per year.

    http://collectorswest.com/pages/schedule.html

    October 4-5 VANCOUVER, WA Clark County Fairgrounds –
    17402 NE Delfel Road – I-5 Exit #9
    Sat. 9-5, Sun. 9-3 - Adm: $7
    Most gun shows are exempt from these rules because they are structured and controlled events with rules and regulations themselves.
    And I suppose that state law isn't structured and has rules and regulations? Their logic or lack of logic defies explaination. I get the feeling they do it because it is PC.AnythingPC is a good reason not to do it.
    That very well could be the reason too.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  14. #14
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    Its a joke! I went yesterday andCC while they searched our stroller and bags. I just smiled while they did a pointless search. My glock 27 was safe with me the whole time yes they do have a no weapons sign. My safety and the safety of my famliycomes first and since I was not breaking the law (just a death trap policy) I CC

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    Good for your glock23! In hindsight that's what I should have done but I left my gun locked in the minivan while my family and I joined the sheeple unarmed. The search at the gate was ridiculous. The kid checking our diaper bag opened 2 out of the like 20 pockets and glanced inside. Pointless. I'll be CC next year.

  16. #16
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    So anyone going to oc at the Spokane county fair??

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    Anyone have an update to this thread.

    Greetings All,

    Moved to WA from AZ about the time of the fair last year and attended the fair for one day.........saw the signs and had our bags checked for weapons.

    Thanks to OC.org for lots of members with great information. Does anyone have an update to this thread?......I was hoping that state preemption was firmly entrenched, but based on this thread it seemed to leave off in limbo land.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    (2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

    (a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

    (b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

    (i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070
    or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

    (ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.
    I don't know if this helps but it's something I didn't see on this thread yet.

    It does say operated not owned. But the other law cited does say owned.

    It's a mixed review.

    If your record is clean then I will donate some money to the paypal or that gun friendly site account that your lawyer sets up to take donations in your defense. I think it would be valid test case.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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