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Thread: Can you pull the trigger?

  1. #1
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    No need to post a reply if you don't want to. I realize 99% of your first reaction is to say, "without a second thought" but sit back and digest this for a bit.

    I don't know you, your background, your familiarity with weapons or how well you keep your nerves.

    What I do know is I've seen men who spent years training to do one thing....kill the enemy before they kill you or your buddy. I've seen men in a combat zone, who are expecting to be shot at and yet....when that FIRST moment arrives, I've seen those same men do what I never thought they'd do and that's pick flight over fight.

    Now I'm not taking anything away from those few individuals....all I'm saying is this: It's nice to be Joe Schmo who works as an IT tech answering phones and playing Halo all day. But, God forbid, if you are ever in that position where you are on the receiving end of someone else weapon or you have a moment to react before another citizen loses their life....can you pull the trigger? Can you do what some folks who trained their entire adult life couldn't?

    I realize that this is the age of the FPS, Rambo, The Matrix and countless other shooting things all day without a care in the world....but if there are folks here who have been in that situation they'll probably agree....the real world shoot 'em up is different than the movies.

    Now I'm not talking about after.....I've never lost a second of sleep for what I've done and would do it again without another thought....but at that instance when yours, your childs or a strangers life is in your hands, could you do it?

    Like I said...there's really no need to respond if you don't want to since I doubt someone would actually post that they think they might hesitate or run. Just a little something to chew on and think about every time you put that on your hip....when you boil it all down, it's much more than just a political statement you're wearing.



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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    ...It's nice to be Joe Schmo who works as an IT tech answering phones and playing Halo all day...
    Are you stalking me?

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    I'm pretty sure I'm much more likely to be able to pull the trigger if I have a trigger on me, than if I don't.

    I also happen to think "running away" if that is possible, is a perfectly valid outcome to a conflict or potential conflict. I'm not a member of the military, nor a police man. Other than myself or my family I have no legal or sworn obligation to protect anyone. I have no direct, personal obligation to stop or detain any criminal. Indeed, society has made clear that it prefer I not attempt to do so.

    For me, and ANY decent, moral person, pulling the trigger is a last, desperate option that is honorable avoided by almost any method possible including running away, ignoring taunts and insults, and otherwise defusing a situation BEFORE deadly force is needed.

    Now, if there is no other option, I DO intend to go home safely to my family each night even if it means that a criminal effectively commits "suicide by armed citizen." But I do all I can to maintain and use other options. Don't you? Respond to THAT question, if you like.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
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    I never understand why someone asks me this question.

    I have been asked many times, mostly by rabid brain-dead liberals who (while they have the requisite audience of anti-American leftist morons egging them on) try to "corner me" into admitting that I would not pull the trigger in a situation where I had drawn my weapon. I always laugh at these fools, because they fail to understand that the decision about whether or not to neutralize the threat that is about to thrust a knife into my mother's throat or shoot my friend or myself was made prior to drawing my weapon.

    Do you pull out your pots and pans and take out your various food items from the refrigerator BEFORE you have decided to make a meal? NOPE! You take out the pots and pans because the decision to cook a meal has been made, and you draw your weapon because the decision to deliver its payload has already been made.

    When you go to step on a cockroach, do you hesitate and think about whether there are little cockroach babies off in the corner wondering of dad or mom will make it home tonight, or do you just step on it because the value of it's life was determined the moment you spotted it? Do you worry about the repercussions of squashing that cockroach under the sole of your shoe?

    I suppose some people might hesitate, as thoughts of the sorrow they might feel at having taken another human life might torment them, but sorry guys n' gals. If the sub-creature is threatening a life or MY life, it is immediately deemed to be NOT HUMAN and there would be no remorse felt by me whatsoever.

    Others would wrestle with the "eternal damnation" thing, having been spoon-fed religion and told that God tells us not to "kill." Sorry again, but until King James (Does "The King James VERSION" ring a bell?) decided to rewrite the Bible, the original comandment was THOU SHALT DO NO MURDER. He very lazily replaced the word "murder" with the word "kill" and changed the whole meaning of the comandment. God did not tell us not to kill. The Bible even tells us "To everything there is a season ... a time to KILL ..."

    http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/3-3.htm

    The moment a threat is determined, I am assessing the situation and deciding whether it will be necessary to neutralize that threat. Once the weapon is drawn, the decision to neutralize has been made, and there is no sense in second-guessing my conclusion about the need for deadly force. In other words, I don't draw a weapon to stall for time. I draw a weapon to deliver a round directly into my target, pure and simple. The purpose of a gun is not to brandish it or hope that the sight of it will diffuse the situation. The purpose of a gun is to fire a bullet, and neutralize a threat. If you are not going to neutralize the threat, leave your weapon in the holster. Pulling it out without employing it will only make the situation worse.

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    I never understand why someone asks me this question.
    I think the reason why the question is asked is that the military has done studies, during WW2, Korea, Vietnam that showed that only about 20% of the troops could actually site down a barrel at another person and pull the trigger. Others were just 'spraying and praying'--if that.

    There are civilian stats I've read of where CCW instructors have students that freeze up when asked to shoot at human silouettetargets. These folks just can't pull the trigger. There's a lot folks that just aren't hardwired for violence. I read a medical report just a few days ago that scientists are pretty sure that they have found the gene for violence, and how that person with the gene is raised has a lot to do with whether they wind up criminals or cops/soldiers etc. The point is that some of this ability to pull the trigger is genetic so to ask 'can you pull the trigger' is a good question for folks to ponder.

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    No need to post a reply if you don't want to. I realize 99% of your first reaction is to say, "without a second thought" but sit back and digest this for a bit.

    I don't know you, your background, your familiarity with weapons or how well you keep your nerves.

    What I do know is I've seen men who spent years training to do one thing....kill the enemy before they kill you or your buddy. I've seen men in a combat zone, who are expecting to be shot at and yet....when that FIRST moment arrives, I've seen those same men do what I never thought they'd do and that's pick flight over fight.

    Now I'm not taking anything away from those few individuals....all I'm saying is this: It's nice to be Joe Schmo who works as an IT tech answering phones and playing Halo all day. But, God forbid, if you are ever in that position where you are on the receiving end of someone else weapon or you have a moment to react before another citizen loses their life....can you pull the trigger? Can you do what some folks who trained their entire adult life couldn't?

    I realize that this is the age of the FPS, Rambo, The Matrix and countless other shooting things all day without a care in the world....but if there are folks here who have been in that situation they'll probably agree....the real world shoot 'em up is different than the movies.

    Now I'm not talking about after.....I've never lost a second of sleep for what I've done and would do it again without another thought....but at that instance when yours, your childs or a strangers life is in your hands, could you do it?

    Like I said...there's really no need to respond if you don't want to since I doubt someone would actually post that they think they might hesitate or run. Just a little something to chew on and think about every time you put that on your hip....when you boil it all down, it's much more than just a political statement you're wearing.

    The book by REX GROSSMAN
    ON KILLING

    Explains alot of that.




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    I would say yes, I will pull the trigger. I may pukeand shake like crazy when it is done from being nervious. BUt if someone is in my house while my family is there sleeping, they are not going to wake me up to shake my hand. If a guy gets out his car in road rage with a bat pissed off at me, draw it back to hit me in the head it would kill me. I can't let it happen.

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    Would you pull the trigger?

    hmmmmmm -------------very interesting.

    No, I would just curl up into a little ball and beg for my life.

    GIVE ME A FRIEKIN' BREAK HERE.

    I do not think anybody here is carying for the heck of it!

    We carry for that- "GOD FORBID" incident that WE ALL HOPE AND PRAY WILL NEVER COME!

    I think the only time we will really need to look close at this question, is when we read about an armed citizen failing to protect his/herself.

    The gentleman in SLC the other day, did not have too much trouble making theDECISION.

    I wasn't there, so it's difficult to judge-- but I sure as hell am going to "SEE" a weapon, before I shoot somebody!!-- Unless we have a "hands on" situation, where control of my gun is a situation-- then you're a dead man-no matter what!

    If I'm in a confrontation with you, therevery well could already be a potential, for a "fear for my life"--- with that said, I'm not shooting cause you are reaching into your back pocket!

    Imagine if a LEO confronted this guy and shot him for reaching into his backpack??---

    ???????????????????????????????? wasn't there-- Can't be the JUDGE!

    This is always a tough topic--

    If you DO carry, and feel that you could NOT "do the deed"- then, in my opinion, you place innocent people in danger! Your inabilty to use it, could very well cause you to lose it!!!

    CHew on that one! :?



    .45

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    People freeze in panic situations. It is good to know you aren't one of them (I guess). :shock:

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    People freeze in panic situations...
    I wonder if the legality of the situation plays a major role.

    I'll elaborate. (Situation) Im in a convenient store buying ice cream and over-hear the clerk getting 'held-up'. now, i'm OC/CC (lets say), and I can tell this gentleman is about to start perusing the isles looking for customers/whitenesses. Now, In my head - my wheels might be spinning and trying to figure out is i am LEGALLY allowed to shoot this guy or am i going to get prosecuted or.... BANG - the dude sees me in the ice-cream section pondering about the law, I'm dead...

    Seems like soldiers KNOW whats going to happen when they defend themselves, right? Civilians are open to prosecution.

    ...i mean, I don't KNOW, i have never been in that situation before. Just lookin for thoughts.



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    33itmefs wrote:
    Again, another OP asks a simple question, wanting to get to know you guys and feel like hes part of something and some of you react with smartass remarks. The "oh poor me a liberal asked me a question" remarks or the "no I carry it for fun" crap. Why dont you guys grow up? Just a bit. I know the people you associate with must think your juvenile antics are just hilarious as all get out, but how about talking like a big boy.
    +1

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    33itmefs wrote:
    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    People freeze in panic situations...
    I wonder if the legality of the situation plays a major role.

    I'll elaborate. (Situation) Im in a convenient store buying ice cream and over-hear the clerk getting 'held-up'. now, i'm OC/CC (lets say), and I can tell this gentleman is about to start perusing the isles looking for customers/whitenesses. Now, In my head - my wheels might be spinning and trying to figure out is i am LEGALLY allowed to shoot this guy or am i going to get prosecuted or.... BANG - the dude sees me in the ice-cream section pondering about the law, I'm dead...

    Seems like soldiers KNOW whats going to happen when they defend themselves, right? Civilians are open to prosecution.

    ...i mean, I don't KNOW, i have never been in that situation before. Just lookin for thoughts.

    Huh, thats an interesting thought, never thought of that aspect. You are right, I shoot a bad guy in war, Im pretty much justified. But you are right, I HAVE done that type of thing before too..... I think it does play a role, only way to know is to be one of those guys that can look at a situation, assess it, see the clear plan to safety and impliment it within a fraction of a second(as your sites fix on his/her chest) Very interesting thought.
    Maybe that should play a major role in handgun ownership and/or carry (CC or OC). OR maybe *DING* that what you meant by certain ppl should be allow to carry and some shouldn't.

    If you cant act, you shouldn't pretend your able to? Whoa...I'm chewin on that...

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    family home evening was last night-- guess the topic willhave to wait til next week!

    .45

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    Again I suggest Rex Grossman book, On killing.

    I thought it was well written and thought provoking.
    The book explains in detail some issues some have regarding killing.

    I found it interesting that the closer the enemy was the harder it was to act,(Exlained in the book).

    May I suggest we put our ego aside and really think about it, Read a book or talk to someone who has been there and done that.

    I think we all could learn some things about ourselves.

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    The book goes into detail about the affect on humans being in combat.
    How some will freeze, some go bezerk.
    Training helps but its not a sure thing.
    certain parts of the book detail how its easyier to plink people off at a distance.
    The closer you are the more human that person appears. This causes difficulty
    with most people. some deal with it better than others.
    I don't say that most wont act. Some wont, The book discusses alot of the issues. It is more complex than most think.


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    GenkiSudo wrote: [the OP]



    Your witness testimony distinguishs this fromsimple waste-of-time criticism. I'm very glad you added that.

    I'm not sure, however, what point you are trying to convey and why.

    I have a first thought, an observation. As many first thoughts, maybe its wrong. Please let me know if I miss on something. My first thought is, why bother writing this?

    It doesn'treally offer a way for someone to fortify himself mentally in preparation for a lethal-force encounter. In fact,its implied it may not be possible because you have seen people who trained "their entire adult life" flee. Then, in effect driving home this hopelessness,its suggested the reader thinks about this every time he holsters up.

    Rather than raise an uncertainty, and then perpetuate it everytime one holsters up, wouldn't it be better to provide for the new guys references to things they can do for mental preparation to the extent of their abilities. Rather than leave them stuck in a worry? Get them started on it with articlesfrom self-defense instructors about mindset, fighting through fear and pain, never giving up, what to expect as far as the viciousness of a street assault, that sort of thing?

    I'm not trying to say thegoals of the post were to short-change the reader. The preceding are my observations about the post.

    What were you trying toconvey and why?





    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    GenkiSudo wrote: [the OP]



    Your witness testimony distinguishs this fromsimple waste-of-time criticism. I'm very glad you added that.

    I'm not sure, however, what point you are trying to convey and why.

    I have a first thought, an observation. As many first thoughts, maybe its wrong. Please let me know if I miss on something. My first thought is, why bother writing this?

    It doesn'treally offer a way for someone to fortify himself mentally in preparation for a lethal-force encounter. In fact,its implied it may not be possible because you have seen people who trained "their entire adult life" flee. Then, in effect driving home this hopelessness,its suggested the reader thinks about this every time he holsters up.

    Rather than raise an uncertainty, and then perpetuate it everytime one holsters up, wouldn't it be better to provide for the new guys references to things they can do for mental preparation to the extent of their abilities. Rather than leave them stuck in a worry? Get them started on it with articlesfrom self-defense instructors about mindset, fighting through fear and pain, never giving up, what to expect as far as the viciousness of a street assault, that sort of thing?

    I'm not trying to say thegoals of the post were to short-change the reader. The preceding are my observations about the post.

    What were you trying toconvey and why?




    I'm not here to write how you should go about killing someone, how you should deal with it after the fact or how to prepare yourself. I wouldn't know how to prepare someone for that aside from relaying what I learned from the military....which is years of indoctrination in combat arms.

    As to why bother writing this. I get the feeling that there are folks in the OC community who carry primarily for a political statement, as a showpiece or a talking point over what carrying a weapon really is about. This is to give those folks a bit of reality of the responsibility they wear every day.

    You speak as if I'm writing an article for Guns & Ammo....this is a forum where there are relatively few posts that provide what you're asking me to give to my "readers".

    In my opinion, the best preparation is knowledge and maybe this will get folks thinking about what they may never have thought of before. And I really wouldn't consider it raising an uncertainty....I think it's pointing out the obvious. If you aren't ready, willing and able to carry out the purpose of what you wear at your side...you probably shouldn't be putting it on in the first place.

    As far as resources to give folks....I honestly don't think you can teach that mindset, you either have it or you don't which is why you see type A personalities in spec ops, fire, emergency medicine and most positions in LE. If you aren't born with that type of mindset in the first place, I'm kind of doubtful it can be taught to you.

    I've known folks where were in a combat arms MOS that once we were put on alert, they became a conscientious objector or a sudden family emergency popped up that prevented them from deploying. The same thing with folks at the gym....you can train MMA and do great rolling or sparring with someone at practice but set foot in the cage where it's real and you taste that first "real" punch and your training flies out the window.

    So in the end I suggest exactly what I said in the original post. Think about what you're wearing and the responsibility it implies....if you aren't able to live up to that responsibility, maybe it's one you shouldn't have.

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    Well, I have thought this over, didn't really need to, but I did.

    I would definitely be able to pull the trigger. I have, and though it was a long range shot, I pulled the trigger. Nobody was hurt bad thank the lord.

    I came away with a scar on my leg, and still wonder to this day why I was shot in the first place. Never came face to face with the shooter.

    Other times I have had to defend myself, and once my wife from a violent party.

    Every time, I have tried my hardest to avoid it, but when I was attacked, I fought, and fought hard. And I have prevailed every time.

    Hopefully, none of this will ever happen again. But I know how I would react.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    ....I pulled the trigger....I came away with a scar on my leg...
    Whoa. Is there a story here? Dang man. Glad you came outta that one.

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    I grew up in an NRA house. I've been shooting my entire life. Instead of having a locked gun safe, my dad taught all of the kids where the guns were and how to use them. I have never had to pull the trigger on anyone.
    I was in fear of attack once. I was 16 and was alone at home. My parents were in Russia and all of my siblings were at relatives' houses. I heard someone banging around upstairs. I grabbed a 20 gauge and loaded 2 rounds. I came around the corner and saw that it was my brother and his girlfriend BEFORE I pointed the gun at them. I put the gun away. Were it an intruder, I would not have hesitated to fire.

    Gun education > gun control

    On to the subject at hand, now that I carry a handgun I feel much more safe knowing that I have a trigger to pull. I will make the decision before I pull my gun.
    Always make the decision first, before you point the gun at anyone or anything. Don't point it at anyone if you are uncertain whether or not you want them dead.

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    SLC-Vegan wrote

    Gun education > gun control

    Amen.

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