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Can you pull the trigger?

GenkiSudo

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Citizen wrote:
GenkiSudo wrote: [the OP]



Your witness testimony distinguishs this fromsimple waste-of-time criticism. I'm very glad you added that.

I'm not sure, however, what point you are trying to convey and why.

I have a first thought, an observation. As many first thoughts, maybe its wrong. Please let me know if I miss on something. My first thought is, why bother writing this?

It doesn'treally offer a way for someone to fortify himself mentally in preparation for a lethal-force encounter. In fact,its implied it may not be possible because you have seen people who trained "their entire adult life" flee. Then, in effect driving home this hopelessness,its suggested the reader thinks about this every time he holsters up.

Rather than raise an uncertainty, and then perpetuate it everytime one holsters up, wouldn't it be better to provide for the new guys references to things they can do for mental preparation to the extent of their abilities. Rather than leave them stuck in a worry? Get them started on it with articlesfrom self-defense instructors about mindset, fighting through fear and pain, never giving up, what to expect as far as the viciousness of a street assault, that sort of thing?

I'm not trying to say thegoals of the post were to short-change the reader. The preceding are my observations about the post.

What were you trying toconvey and why?
I'm not here to write how you should go about killing someone, how you should deal with it after the fact or how to prepare yourself. I wouldn't know how to prepare someone for that aside from relaying what I learned from the military....which is years of indoctrination in combat arms.

As to why bother writing this. I get the feeling that there are folks in the OC community who carry primarily for a political statement, as a showpiece or a talking point over what carrying a weapon really is about. This is to give those folks a bit of reality of the responsibility they wear every day.

You speak as if I'm writing an article for Guns & Ammo....this is a forum where there are relatively few posts that provide what you're asking me to give to my "readers".

In my opinion, the best preparation is knowledge and maybe this will get folks thinking about what they may never have thought of before. And I really wouldn't consider it raising an uncertainty....I think it's pointing out the obvious. If you aren't ready, willing and able to carry out the purpose of what you wear at your side...you probably shouldn't be putting it on in the first place.

As far as resources to give folks....I honestly don't think you can teach that mindset, you either have it or you don't which is why you see type A personalities in spec ops, fire, emergency medicine and most positions in LE. If you aren't born with that type of mindset in the first place, I'm kind of doubtful it can be taught to you.

I've known folks where were in a combat arms MOS that once we were put on alert, they became a conscientious objector or a sudden family emergency popped up that prevented them from deploying. The same thing with folks at the gym....you can train MMA and do great rolling or sparring with someone at practice but set foot in the cage where it's real and you taste that first "real" punch and your training flies out the window.

So in the end I suggest exactly what I said in the original post. Think about what you're wearing and the responsibility it implies....if you aren't able to live up to that responsibility, maybe it's one you shouldn't have.
 

thx997303

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Well, I have thought this over, didn't really need to, but I did.

I would definitely be able to pull the trigger. I have, and though it was a long range shot, I pulled the trigger. Nobody was hurt bad thank the lord.

I came away with a scar on my leg, and still wonder to this day why I was shot in the first place. Never came face to face with the shooter.

Other times I have had to defend myself, and once my wife from a violent party.

Every time, I have tried my hardest to avoid it, but when I was attacked, I fought, and fought hard. And I have prevailed every time.

Hopefully, none of this will ever happen again. But I know how I would react.
 

SLC-Vegan

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I grew up in an NRA house. I've been shooting my entire life. Instead of having a locked gun safe, my dad taught all of the kids where the guns were and how to use them. I have never had to pull the trigger on anyone.
I was in fear of attack once. I was 16 and was alone at home. My parents were in Russia and all of my siblings were at relatives' houses. I heard someone banging around upstairs. I grabbed a 20 gauge and loaded 2 rounds. I came around the corner and saw that it was my brother and his girlfriend BEFORE I pointed the gun at them. I put the gun away. Were it an intruder, I would not have hesitated to fire.

Gun education > gun control

On to the subject at hand, now that I carry a handgun I feel much more safe knowing that I have a trigger to pull. I will make the decision before I pull my gun.
Always make the decision first, before you point the gun at anyone or anything. Don't point it at anyone if you are uncertain whether or not you want them dead.
 

thx997303

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Yeah, that's what I thought. Not fun, lemme tell ya.

Though, I'm not sure how the tree matters that much, or why I remember that detail.
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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Fairfax Co., VA
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GenkiSudo wrote:
Citizen wrote:
GenkiSudo wrote: [the OP]



What were you trying toconvey and why?
1. As to why bother writing this. I get the feeling that there are folks in the OC community who carry primarily for a political statement, as a showpiece or a talking point over what carrying a weapon really is about. This is to give those folks a bit of reality of the responsibility they wear every day.

2. In my opinion, the best preparation is knowledge and maybe this will get folks thinking about what they may never have thought of before. And I really wouldn't consider it raising an uncertainty....I think it's pointing out the obvious. If you aren't ready, willing and able to carry out the purpose of what you wear at your side...you probably shouldn't be putting it on in the first place.

( I snipped the last post)



1. I understand.

2. I disagree that a person should not possess the means to self-defense if he is in doubt about his preparednessto use it. I believe everyone deserves the chance.Just because one has self-doubts does not mean those doubts won't resolve in the moment of crisis. Necessity can do wonders. I'm speaking from personal experience.

I think a civilianlethal-force confrontation is a little different from a military one. In a military situation, a leg case may have an opportunity to run. In a citizen-criminal encounter, running is even advised if it can be done safely. But, if it can't, if the bad guy is in your face, I think all but the most fragile souls will fight rather than succumb without resistance. Freezing for a moment in shock would vary from one person to the next. I think Jeff Cooper's color codes were intended to help overcome this, since he said an average person can't easily go from inattention to energetic defense in the little time available, if there is any time.

So, maybe thehardier, tougher souls have a better chance at prevailing. I don'tthinkself-doubt should automatically doom those who aren't.
 

Loneviking

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Apr 11, 2008
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As far as resources to give folks....I honestly don't think you can teach that mindset, you either have it or you don't which is why you see type A personalities in spec ops, fire, emergency medicine and most positions in LE. If you aren't born with that type of mindset in the first place, I'm kind of doubtful it can be taught to you.
That's pretty much what I've seen as well. Twenty five years in emergency medicine and I've trained quite a few 'newbies'. Some just can't hack the blood, guts and gore---which is O.K., they can be used up on the floors or in home care. What is sad is when they don't fit and continue to try, which is what seems to also happen to combat soldiers who shouldn't be there because they aren't wired for it. These folks seem to have the mental problems and ulcers.

That's not to say that someone who isn't wired naturally for this can't (or won't) act, but it seems to explain why they may have to be pushed farther before acting and have more problems with the aftermath.

I find it interesting that I can usually identify those who have also spent many years in emergency medicine, LE, or as combat soldiers. We wind up with an attitude and a sense of humor that often horrifies folks outside of these fields---it's our way of coping with what we have to see and deal with.

Well, I'm rambling and probably not making much sense. Time to head to bed...
 

Francis Marion

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ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
Seems like soldiers KNOW whats going to happen when they defend themselves, right? Civilians are open to prosecution.
Soldiers are NOT free from prosecution; remember the Haditha Marines? Have you heard of these: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/07/the-judicial-wa.html

Grossman's book shows the difficulties faced by those who's job it is to kill. He also illustrates the great advances our military has taken to increase the number willing to kill. Many of these techniques have also been implimented by law enforcement and civilians as well.

I break down OC into two parts, CARRY is for defense, OPEN is political and deterent.
 

bigmike

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youscareme wrote:
GenkiSudo wrote:
No need to post a reply if you don't want to. I realize 99% of your first reaction is to say, "without a second thought" but sit back and digest this for a bit.

I don't know you, your background, your familiarity with weapons or how well you keep your nerves.

What I do know is I've seen men who spent years training to do one thing....kill the enemy before they kill you or your buddy. I've seen men in a combat zone, who are expecting to be shot at and yet....when that FIRST moment arrives, I've seen those same men do what I never thought they'd do and that's pick flight over fight.

Now I'm not taking anything away from those few individuals....all I'm saying is this: It's nice to be Joe Schmo who works as an IT tech answering phones and playing Halo all day. But, God forbid, if you are ever in that position where you are on the receiving end of someone else weapon or you have a moment to react before another citizen loses their life....can you pull the trigger? Can you do what some folks who trained their entire adult life couldn't?

I realize that this is the age of the FPS, Rambo, The Matrix and countless other shooting things all day without a care in the world....but if there are folks here who have been in that situation they'll probably agree....the real world shoot 'em up is different than the movies.

Now I'm not talking about after.....I've never lost a second of sleep for what I've done and would do it again without another thought....but at that instance when yours, your childs or a strangers life is in your hands, could you do it?

Like I said...there's really no need to respond if you don't want to since I doubt someone would actually post that they think they might hesitate or run. Just a little something to chew on and think about every time you put that on your hip....when you boil it all down, it's much more than just a political statement you're wearing.
The book by REX GROSSMAN
ON KILLING

Explains alot of that.



I know I'm new here, this is my first post, however, the Author is LT. Col. Dave Grossman. Not Rex
 
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