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Thread: Update: Next meeting on South Jordan Toy Gun ban

  1. #1
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    The following is forwarded from Janalee Tobias.

    In addition to questioning the need for this ban at all, I also think that a Class B misdemeanor for a first offense is way overkill.

    Charles

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Janalee Tobias [mailto:gunflowers@comcast.net]
    Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 10:30 AM


    Friends, here's the latest version of the toy gun ban in So. Jordan City. This is ridiculous. No more fun gun games in the park or streets...only on private property. And if a stray plastic pellet gets in your neighbor's yard or in a public area, it's a Class C Misdemeanor--and could be upgraded to a Class B Misdemeanor. And if someone gets nervous if you display a toy gun gun in public it's a Class B Misdemeanor. Today's Salt Lake Tribune Article follows this update.

    If you have time, feel free to send an e-mail, phone call, or attend the meeting tomorrow night.

    The city council vote on this is tomorrow night, August 5 at 6 p.m., So. Jordan City offices, 1600 W. Towne Center Drive. Here's the link to the Agenda.

    http://www.sjc.utah.gov/pdf/councilagenda.pdf

    It appears the City Council will approve this in a summary action vote unless enough people protest this.

    Here's the link to the e-mail contact for city council:

    citycouncilcontact@sjc.utah.gov

    Here's the link to city council phone numbers:

    http://www.sjc.utah.gov/contactofficials.asp

    Regards, Janalee

    ORDINANCE NO. 2008-10

    AN ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 9 (SOUTH JORDAN PUBLIC PEACE, MORALS AND WELFARE), OF THE SOUTH JORDAN MUNICIPAL CODE, PERTAINING TO DISCHARGE OF WEAPONS OTHER THAN FIREARMS IN SOUTH JORDAN CITY.

    WHEREAS, South Jordan City has experienced an increase in law enforcement responses to situations involving the display and use of air guns and other similar toy devices within its City limits;

    WHEREAS, the public use of these devices can cause criminal property damage to homes and businesses and alarm South Jordan residents, visitors and business leaders;

    WHEREAS, the public use of these devises, in the absence of safety regulations, may result in harm or injury to South Jordan residents or visitors;

    WHEREAS, the realistic appearance of many of these devices creates a potential for law enforcement officials, residents, or business leaders to mistake the display and use of these devices as a criminal action thereby resulting in the potential for a deadly force confrontation;

    WHEREAS, the City Council is concerned about the safety and welfare of its citizens;

    WHEREAS, the City Council desires to amend the Public Peace, Morals and Welfare Code adding and enacting this ordinance as proposed; and

    WHEREAS, the City Council has found and determined that the proposed amendment to the Public Peace, Morals and Welfare Code, Title 9, will support the best interests of the City and will promote the public health, safety, and welfare.

    NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT ORDAINED BY THE SOUTH JORDAN CITY COUNCIL AS FOLLOWS:

    SECTION 1. Enactment. Section 100, Chapter 08, in Title 9, of the South Jordan Municipal Code is hereby enacted as follows:

    9.08.100: DISCHARGE OF WEAPONS OTHER THAN FIREARMS:

    A. Air gun defined: As used in this section, the words “air gun” mean and include the following: air gun, air pistol, air rifle, paintball gun, B.B. gun, blow gun, toy gun or device of any kind or nature when so designed, contrived, or modified, can propel, by air, compressed air, gas, electricity or spring-loaded plunger, any pellet, bean, pea, B.B. (metal or plastic), paint ball, rock or other hard substance a distance greater than twenty-five feet.

    B. It is unlawful within the City limits when on public property, in public rights-of-ways or on property open to the public for any person to draw or exhibit any air gun (i) in such a manner that a reasonable person would feel threatened by such a display, or (ii) with the intent to intimidate another person.

    C. It is unlawful for any person to discharge any air gun within the City limits when on public property, in public rights-of-ways or on property open to the public.

    D. It is unlawful for an adult, parent or guardian to knowingly allow a minor to display or discharge any air gun within the City limits when on public property, in public rights-of-ways or on property open to the public, contrary to the provisions of this section.

    E. It is unlawful to discharge an air gun on private property in a manner that results in a projectile entering public property, public rights-of-ways, property open to the public, or the private property of a non-consenting third party who has not given prior written permission for the projectiles to enter his or her property.

    F. No person shall shoot or discharge any air gun while on private property owned by a nonparticipating third-party without the third-party property owner’s prior written permission.

    G. The provisions of subsections B., C., and D. of this section shall not apply when a
    person is possessing or using an air gun on a gun range or course, operated or conducted by the City, or any school, educational institution, business or other group, pursuant to rules and regulations promulgated by the City and all applicable state and federal laws.

    H. Penalty:

    (i.) Police officer discretion may be exercised by issuing a “warning” for a violation of this section.

    (ii.) A violation of this section, except for subsection B., shall be punishable a class C misdemeanor.

    (iii.) Any subsequent violation of this section shall be enhanced to be punishable as a class B misdemeanor.

    (iv.) A violation of subsection B. of this section shall be punishable as a class B misdemeanor.

    PASSED AND ADOPTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL OF SOUTH JORDAN CITY, STATE OF UTAH, ON THIS________ DAY OF_______________, 2008 BY THE FOLLOWING VOTE:

    YES NO ABSTAIN ABSENT


    Aleta A. Taylor ___ ___ ____ ____
    Larry Short ___ ___ ____ ____
    Kathie L. Johnson ___ ___ ____ ____
    Brian C. Butters ___ ___ ____ ____
    Leona Winger ___ ___ ____ ____


    ____________________________________
    W. Kent Money, Mayor


    ATTEST: __________________________
    Anna M. West, City Recorder
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    ...citycouncilcontact@sjc.utah.gov...
    This is going to include Airsoft as well as paint ball!? Ridiculous. Seeing as how these type of sprts are normally played in a remote area, right?

    Do you feel an email would suffice or should we be showing up to this thing? ( I'm new to the whole, "Standing up for my rights" thing.) No, really...

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    Already fired-off e-mails on Monday after receiving an e-mail alert.

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    Who is going? I would love to come and will try my damndest to be there. I will be OCing if I do go, and during the comment period I will say something like:

    "While the need for this law in the first place is questionable at best, the punishments spelled out for first-time offenders is beyond ridiculous. Basically I can carry a real gun on my hip, in the open perfectly legally, but if I were to replace it with one of my airsoft pistols, I would be guilty of a Class B Midemeanor. That is completely absurd and I think that at the very minimum the punishments for first time offenders needs a dramatic reduction, but ideally, this overly restricted law needs to never again see the light of day."

    How will they view a non South Jordan Resident speaking?

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    This is a sticky issue. No one is really taking the time to say this here, so I will.

    We can carry a gun openly, and legally, because law enforcement is aware that it is a dangerous weapon and how to act accordingly to that perceived threat (for the most part).

    What they are trying to do is remove all doubt that what a person is carrying is real.

    If an officer shoots someone, and more importantly shoots a kid, because he sees a "weapon" that he thinks is real, the outrage against that officer would be enormous.

    I don't know WHERE the balance is, but the truth of the matter is that it is easy to remove the orange tip or cover it on many airsoft guns that kids can then run around with.

    I understand that this ban umbrellas more than even I think it should, but this is one of the reasons that I can see they would enact it.

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    They are trying to legislate common sense in the interest of "public safety", which is a sure way for the government to obtain more and more power over their subjects...

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    easy to remove the orange tip or cover it on many airsoft guns that kids can then run around with.
    I agree that these are easy to hide, however, the only reason someone would want to remove the orange tip would be to make it appear to be a "real" gun. IMO if someone does this it should be treated as such by any responding officer.

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    ainokea wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    easy to remove the orange tip or cover it on many airsoft guns that kids can then run around with.
    I agree that these are easy to hide, however, the only reason someone would want to remove the orange tip would be to make it appear to be a "real" gun. IMO if someone does this it should be treated as such by any responding officer.
    Kids do it all the time. There are kids who advocate it on youtube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quYVV09QKvU

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    The kid in this vid makes that gun look VERY real, so i can understand WHY they are trying to pass the law, but : ScottyT wrote:
    They are trying to legislate common sense in the interest of "public safety", which is a sure way for the government to obtain more and more power over their subjects...
    This is the ultimate point.

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    Most people who play airsoft on a scale larger than in your backyard (like me) remove the orange tips. It is perfectly legal and the tip can give away your poistion a lot easier than people realize. Of course people who play on that scale aren't stupid enough to go waving them around in public.

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    ScottyT wrote:
    Most people who play airsoft on a scale larger than in your backyard (like me) remove the orange tips. It is perfectly legal and the tip can give away your poistion a lot easier than people realize. Of course people who play on that scale aren't stupid enough to go waving them around in public.
    I was under the impression it was not legal because you are modifying a toy gun to make it look real.

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    The orange tip requirement is only for buying/selling/transporting (for sale purposes). Kind of like the "Do Not Remove" tags on matresses, the end user can do whatever he wants. There are no laws against toys that look like real guns.

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    ScottyT wrote:
    Most people who play airsoft on a scale larger than in your backyard (like me) remove the orange tips. It is perfectly legal and the tip can give away your poistion a lot easier than people realize. Of course people who play on that scale aren't stupid enough to go waving them around in public.
    That is my point exactly. If you do remove the orange tip and are waving it around or threatening people in public and the cops show up any person with some intelligence would comply with the police. Drop the weapon and put your hands up. If you don't comply then your are a threat and should be treated as such.

    If I were aLEO I wouldn't assume a gun with orange rings was a toy either. Any smart BG could paint the tip of their real gun orange and get the upper hand on aresponding LEO.

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    I absolutely agree with the above. If you point a realistic replica at a cop, you need to be shot. Talk about bleaching the gene pool...

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    ainokea wrote:
    ScottyT wrote:
    Most people who play airsoft on a scale larger than in your backyard (like me) remove the orange tips. It is perfectly legal and the tip can give away your poistion a lot easier than people realize. Of course people who play on that scale aren't stupid enough to go waving them around in public.
    .....If you do remove the orange tip and are waving it around or threatening people....If you don't comply then your are a threat and should be treated as such...
    +1

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    I guess what I was trying to say is, imagine your child doing this and not complying exactly how the officer directed him/her to do.... and things don't end happily.

    One reason that I could see that they are trying to remove the confusion that toy guns bring to the table.

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    Well, I will be teaching my daughter to never point anything that even remotely looks like a firearm, at anyone at anytime.

    So I would hope it would be a non-issue.

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    One reason that I could see that they are trying to remove the confusion that toy guns bring to the table.
    I guess it will give LEO cause to shoot anyone holding anything that looks like a gun because it must be a real gun.

    The other part of this law I fail to understand is that as a little boy I remember running up and down the street with friends playing Cops and Robbers and shooting toy guns at each other all day long. Does this mean we are going to start charging 8 year old kids with misdemeanors?

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    Like I said, it umbrellas more than I agree with.

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    Hmmmmm....not sure what to think about this, I'm kind of split.

    On one hand, I'm not sure if everyone realizes what really happens when we get a man with a gun call. Those calls are taken very seriously until they can be confirmed and what that usually means is every unit assigned to that area goes on that call. What does that mean for our domestic in progress? Well that domestic might just end up sitting there giving Mr. Sam Sneed the time to beat the **** out of his wife and kids some more before leaving the scene. That suspicious vehicle call....well it was really a stolen car or some folks casing a house and by the time we're able to respond they've done what they need to do and are no longer there.

    In the end....the calls that we get that turn out to be paintball or airsoft guns are a waste of limited resources. We could be doing much better with our time....not saying that there are always other priority calls holding in queue when we get a man with a gun call, but it happens often.

    On the other hand....do we really have to micromanage people and impose such a harsh punishment?

    I dunno....personally I think if parents would play a more active role in their childrens upbringing we wouldn't have as many issues as we do today. Hell....I remember being able to walk the street at all hours, have laser tag wars at 1am and huge fights with real swords in the streets and not once the police were called. Of course....we didn't lock our doors at night back then either :P

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    .....the calls that we get that turn out to be paintball or airsoft guns are a waste of limited resources...On the other hand....do we really have to micromanage people and impose such a harsh punishment?.....

    ... Hell....I remember being able to walk the street at all hours,...and not once the police were called. ...
    I suppose it all depends on whether or not "Times" have really changed that much? Is this 'time' a bit less safe or trust worthy?

    Is this a Q for a different thread?

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    GenkiSudo wrote:
    .....the calls that we get that turn out to be paintball or airsoft guns are a waste of limited resources...On the other hand....do we really have to micromanage people and impose such a harsh punishment?.....

    ... Hell....I remember being able to walk the street at all hours,...and not once the police were called. ...
    I suppose it all depends on whether or not "Times" have really changed that much? Is this 'time' a bit less safe or trust worthy?

    Is this a Q for a different thread?
    I think times have changed. Things are more dangerous but I think the biggest change is due to liberalism.

    We have become a country of (for lack of a better term) pussies who can't deal with things or accept responsibility. I'm glad my Grandfather isn't alive because the latest generations are so far removed from "the greatest generation" that laws like this have to be passed in the first place.

    My child is obese....I'll sue McDonalds. I spilled hot coffee in my lap.....I'll sue McDonalds. My child is acting up.....I'll call the police to discipline them (several times a day I might add). My child was hurt at recess....let's get rid of dodgeball and sue the school.

    We have become a dumbed down version of what we once were. We are a bunch of liberal wimps who absolutely REFUSE to take responsibility for our own actions or those dependant upon us.

    So no....I think your question fits perfectly in this thread because it's the times we live in now that has led to laws like this and the actions of everyone around us.


    /rantover

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    GenkiSudo wrote:
    .....the calls that we get that turn out to be paintball or airsoft guns are a waste of limited resources...On the other hand....do we really have to micromanage people and impose such a harsh punishment?.....

    ... Hell....I remember being able to walk the street at all hours,...and not once the police were called. ...
    I suppose it all depends on whether or not "Times" have really changed that much? Is this 'time' a bit less safe or trust worthy?

    Is this a Q for a different thread?
    I think times have changed. Things are more dangerous but I think the biggest change is due to liberalism.

    We have become a country of (for lack of a better term) pussies who can't deal with things or accept responsibility. I'm glad my Grandfather isn't alive because the latest generations are so far removed from "the greatest generation" that laws like this have to be passed in the first place.

    My child is obese....I'll sue McDonalds. I spilled hot coffee in my lap.....I'll sue McDonalds. My child is acting up.....I'll call the police to discipline them (several times a day I might add). My child was hurt at recess....let's get rid of dodgeball and sue the school.

    We have become a dumbed down version of what we once were. We are a bunch of liberal wimps who absolutely REFUSE to take responsibility for our own actions or those dependant upon us.

    So no....I think your question fits perfectly in this thread because it's the times we live in now that has led to laws like this and the actions of everyone around us.


    /rantover
    Wow. I couldn't find a single point you made that i can disagree with.

    I can not decide what is worse: The notion that this is the way we/society actually are, or the fact that we have this potential. I wonder if civilization has 'peaked', so to speak; in terms of common decency and/or maturity.

    -That may be going too far.

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    Wow, I agree with that so much.

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