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Thread: Stopped by NPD Asst. Chief for OC. ALERT!

  1. #1
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    As referenced in my OC log, last night my 18 year old brother and I were OC'ing with my girlfriend and under 18 brother. Asst. Chief Kingsbury of the NPD stopped us and was of the opinion that handgun possession is illegal by those under 21. I depated the law with him for 12 minutes. During that time Asst. Chief Forsman pulled up and observed the scene. The discussion involved my possession of an Maine Non-Resident CCW and how Asst. Chief Kingsbury didn't like I had it instead of an Idaho CCW.

    One fo the most disturbing things about this whole thing is that Kingsbury stopped us because he doesn't like Open Carry. He's only supposed to uphold the law, not do as he likes.

    I sent an email off to Asst. Chief Kingsbury this morning and will post it at the bottom of this posting. Also any further correspondence with the NPD regarding OC will be posted in this thread.

    Funny thing is, this is the first incident with NPD and OC ever. I've even OC'd into a room filled with 100+ Nampa cops including these Chiefs and no problems occured. My brother who was Open Carrying has talked to a few new Nampa cops and they even knew that OC was legal and not a crime.

    The complete audio recording of the stop is linked at the following:
    http://www.mediafire.com/?fypkfey1p1b
    Please find all the related state laws quoted here.

    Thanks for taking the time to look into this matter.

    All laws were referenced and or copied from the ID law page at: www3.state.id.us

    SECTION 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony.

    TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302. ISSUANCE OF LICENSES TO CARRY CONCEALED WEAPONS.

    Especially important is this clause: "(17) The attorney general is authorized to negotiate reciprocal agreements with other states related to the recognition of licenses to carry concealed weapons. The Idaho state police shall keep a copy and maintain a record of all such agreements, which shall be made available to the public."

    From the Attorney General's website is this statement in relation to out of state permits.

    "Does Idaho recognize concealed weapons permits from other states?"

    "Yes. However, while in Idaho, you must carry the permit on your person at all times when you are carrying a concealed weapon. (Idaho Code Section 18-3302(12)(g))"

    I have misplaced the list that ISP is required to make available of all the reciprocal states at this time. Idaho does have Maine on the list though.

    Regarding the possession and carry of a handgun while under the age of 21. Idaho law is very clear that Open Carry is legal from age 12 to 17 with restrictions and from 18 and older with no restrictions other than the prohibited places mentioned in 18-3302C and 18-3302D.

    TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3302E. POSSESSION OF A WEAPON BY A MINOR. "(1) It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen (18) years to possess or have in possession any weapon, as defined in section 18-3302A, Idaho Code, unless he: (a) Has the written permission of his parent or guardian to possess the weapon; or (b) Is accompanied by his parent or guardian while he has the weapon in his possession. (2) Any minor under the age of twelve (12) years in possession of a weapon shall be accompanied by an adult. (3) Any person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor."

    TITLE 18 CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS CHAPTER 33 FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS 18-3308. SELLING EXPLOSIVES, AMMUNITION OR FIREARMS TO MINORS. "No person, firm, association or corporation shall sell or give to any minor under the age of sixteen (16) years any powder, commonly called gunpowder, of any description, or any dynamite or other explosive, or any shells or fixed ammunition of any kind, except shells loaded for use in shotguns and for use in rifles of twenty-two (22) caliber or smaller, or any firearms of any description, without the written consent of the parents or guardian of such minor first had and obtained. Any person, firm, association or corporation violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor."

    Thank you for returning my permit to me and for treating us in a very respectful and professional manner. It speaks highly of the Nampa Police Department. Also pass on to Asst. Chief Forsman my respect for his professionalism.

    Matt XXXX

  2. #2
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    Link to audio doesn't work.

  3. #3
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    Audio isn't working. You have a transcript yet?

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    Code:
    TITLE  18
    CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
    CHAPTER 33
    FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND
    OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
    18-3302.  ISSUANCE OF LICENSES TO CARRY CONCEALED WEAPONS.
    Code:
    (12) The requirement to secure a license to carry a concealed weapon under
    this section shall not apply to the following persons:


    Any person who has a valid permit from a state or local law
    enforcement agency or court authorizing him to carry a concealed weapon. A
    permit issued in another state will only be considered valid if the permit
    is in the licensee's physical possession.

    the only sticker that i see is if you are under 21..

  5. #5
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    here is case law about OCing in idaho....


    (Supreme Court of Idaho. Nov. 15, 1902.)
    BEARING ARMS--CONSTITUTIONAL LAW--CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPONS.
    1. The act of the territorial legislature approved February 4, 1889, which prohibits private persons from carrying deadly weapons within the limits or confines of any city, town, or village in Idaho, contravenes the provisions of the second amendment to the federal constitution and the provisions of section 11, art. 1, of the constitution of Idaho, and is void.
    2. While it is undoubtedly within the power of the legislature to prohibit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons, and such regulation is a proper exercise of police power, yet the legislature does not possess the power to prohibit the carrying of firearms, as the right to do so is guarantied to the citizen both by our federal and state constitutions.
    (Syllabus by the Court.)
    Application of L. D. Brickey for a writ of habeas corpus. Writ granted, and petitioner discharged.
    S. S. Denning, for petitioner. Miles S. Johnson, Co. Atty., for the State.
    QUARLES, C. J. The petitioner applies to this court for a writ of habeas corpus, and in the petition sets forth and shows that he is unlawfully imprisoned, confined, and restrained of his liberty by A. W. Kroutinger, sheriff of Nez Perce county, at the county jail in the county of Nez Perce; in the state of Idaho; that he is so imprisoned under a commitment which issued out of the justice's court of West Lewiston precinct, in the county of Nez Perce, in a criminal action wherein petitioner was convicted upon the charge of carrying a deadly weapon, to wit, a loaded revolver, within the limits and confines of the city of Lewiston, contrary to the provisions of the act of the territory of Idaho approved February 4, 1889 (Sess. Laws 1889, p. 27); and, in accordance with the prayer of said petition, the writ was issued, and return thereto duly made by the said sheriff. From the petition and return it appears that the only offense charged against the petitioner, of which he has been convicted, and is now restrained of his liberty, is that he carried a deadly weapon within the limits of the city of Lewiston, in contravention of the said act of February 4, 1889. The second amendment to the federal constitution is in the following language: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." The language of section 11, art. 1, Const. Idaho, is as follows: "The people have the right to bear arms for their security and defense, but the legislature shall regulate the exercise of this right by law." Under these constitutional provisions, the legislature has no power to prohibit a citizen from bearing arms in any portion of the state of Idaho, whether within or without the corporate limits of cities, towns, and villages. The legislature may, as expressly provided in our state constitution, regulate the exercise of this right, but may not prohibit it. A statute prohibiting the carrying of concealed deadly weapons would be a proper exercise of the police power of the state. But the statute in question does not prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed, which is of itself a pernicious practice, but prohibits the carrying of them in any manner in cities, towns, and villages. We are compelled to hold this statute void. The statute being void, the said justice's court had no jurisdiction of the subject-matter of the action, and the said judgment of conviction, and the commitment which issued thereon, and the detention of the petitioner under said commitment and judgment of conviction, are illegal and void.(p.610)
    The said judgment being void, habeas corpus will lie, and the prisoner should be discharged from custody, and it is so ordered.
    SULLIVAN and STOCKS LAGER, JJ., concur.


  6. #6
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    i would suggest carrying a copy the laws with u when u oc..
    I do.. and have never had a problem that couldnt be solved by reading thru the laws.

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    Big time win here!

    Sorry about the audio link being down. I'm retrying the link right now.


    Matt,

    Thank you for the information. First of all, you are absolutely correct regarding the carrying of a handgun while under 21 years of age. As I stated last night, people still view open carry with a little concern in a neighborhood. Just be cautious and cognizant of that fact. While it is very important that you train in order to shoot the handgun, it is just as important that you train to retain the handgun, should a person with ill will try to take it from you and thus use it for evil purposes. I would just reiterate that if you carry the handgun in the public you would be less of a target of a bad person, if that handgun was legally concealed.

    While I agree with your statement regarding “speed of draw”, the speed does not do you any good if a bad person is able to target you prior to his “attack”. You may be a better help if that assailant is not able to target you early on.

    Please be careful and safe while carrying. I would also encourage you to obtain an Idaho permit to carry concealed so that there will be no confusion regarding the Maine permit. I have to tell you, while it does seem to be legal and valid, it just draws suspicion to police officers that an Idaho resident, who has not even visited, let alone lived, in another state has a concealed weapons permit from a state other than Idaho.

    In closing, please remain careful and vigilant while you are carrying a sidearm. Craig Kingsbury

    By the way I've lived in another state and visited many states. So he is totally off basis in his statment about the CCW Permit.
    This appears to be a very positive result. Now I think i'm going to work on the OC/CC Law pamphlet for ID.

    The link for the audio will be changed in the first post and also posted here now. The new link requires you to download the audio file before you can download it. The file is 5.38 MBs so it shouldn't be to bad.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?fypkfey1p1b









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    bourneshooter wrote:
    Big time win here!

    Sorry about the audio link being down. I'm retrying the link right now.


    Matt,

    Thank you for the information. First of all, you are absolutely correct regarding the carrying of a handgun while under 21 years of age. As I stated last night, people still view open carry with a little concern in a neighborhood. Just be cautious and cognizant of that fact. While it is very important that you train in order to shoot the handgun, it is just as important that you train to retain the handgun, should a person with ill will try to take it from you and thus use it for evil purposes. I would just reiterate that if you carry the handgun in the public you would be less of a target of a bad person, if that handgun was legally concealed.

    While I agree with your statement regarding “speed of draw”, the speed does not do you any good if a bad person is able to target you prior to his “attack”. You may be a better help if that assailant is not able to target you early on.

    Please be careful and safe while carrying. I would also encourage you to obtain an Idaho permit to carry concealed so that there will be no confusion regarding the Maine permit. I have to tell you, while it does seem to be legal and valid, it just draws suspicion to police officers that an Idaho resident, who has not even visited, let alone lived, in another state has a concealed weapons permit from a state other than Idaho.

    In closing, please remain careful and vigilant while you are carrying a sidearm. Craig Kingsbury

    By the way I've lived in another state and visited many states. So he is totally off basis in his statment about the CCW Permit.
    This appears to be a very positive result. Now I think i'm going to work on the OC/CC Law pamphlet for ID.

    The link for the audio will be changed in the first post and also posted here now. The new link requires you to download the audio file before you can download it. The file is 5.38 MBs so it shouldn't be to bad.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?fypkfey1p1b







    The audio is very disturbing. And the the above e-mail even more so.

    Officer Kingsbury has no right to have suspicion of you for owning an out of state permit nor did he have the right to detain you. Hopefully NPD will do better in the future now that the the Assistant Chief of Police (a 20 year veteran according to him) finally knows what the basic gun laws in Idaho are.

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    Wow, he confiscated your license so he could "research" its legality?

    Chastised you for having an attitude? (Which I didn't see)

    Used department time to debate the merits of OC vs CC and how he prefers that people CC. (Was he stating department opinion?)

    Illegally detained you and misrepresented the law to you?

    "I'm not hassling you or anything.." Sure sure.

    We SERIOUSLY need to all do something about this, I suggest attending the next City Council meeting. We should all at least write letters to them about this. I might be willing to let most of it go, but confiscating your license without cause so that he can "research" it goes WAY over the line. And you thanked them for being professional in your letter???

    "We're sorry, but your license (driver's, handgun, etc) appears to be from another state. I'm taking this with me (he has no authority to do, its the property of Maine) because I THINK it MIGHT be against the law...not sure, but hey, better to sieze your property without a warrent and THEN see if its legal.

    I'm just glad he didn't take your gun.

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    IndianaBoy79 wrote:
    Wow, he confiscated your license so he could "research" its legality?

    Chastised you for having an attitude? (Which I didn't see)

    Used department time to debate the merits of OC vs CC and how he prefers that people CC. (Was he stating department opinion?)

    Illegally detained you and misrepresented the law to you?

    "I'm not hassling you or anything.." Sure sure.

    We SERIOUSLY need to all do something about this, I suggest attending the next City Council meeting. We should all at least write letters to them about this. I might be willing to let most of it go, but confiscating your license without cause so that he can "research" it goes WAY over the line. And you thanked them for being professional in your letter???

    "We're sorry, but your license (driver's, handgun, etc) appears to be from another state. I'm taking this with me (he has no authority to do, its the property of Maine) because I THINK it MIGHT be against the law...not sure, but hey, better to sieze your property without a warrent and THEN see if its legal.

    I'm just glad he didn't take your gun.
    There is alot wrong with this situation. Asst. Chief Kingsbury said alot of things that he had no right to say as an Police officer, not to mention do many things he shouldn't have.

    If he would have taken my CCW Permit with him, I would have had a heyday with that. You bet bad publicity and jobs would have been on the line.

    If the gun had been confiscated, war would have been declared. What type? Unknown.

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    I'm missing what city this was in. NPD??? Nampa, just saw it. Where exactly is that?
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Oh, he didn't end up taking the license with him? Thats good at least.

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    Email sent.

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    I can't listen to the audio. It downloads as a text file on my mac.

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    E-mail sent to NPD.

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    Wow...a very good read...



    If you are still having issues with the audio clip, upload it to my server and I would be glad to host it.

    http://www.alieninnovations.com/upload.html

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    Are you going to file a complaint against him?

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    I certainly hope you are, an officer who doesnt know the law needs to be educated and if you think hes going to do that on your own you are mistaken.

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    Dave The Welder wrote:
    Are you going to file a complaint against him?
    Hubby_MC wrote:
    I certainly hope you are, an officer who doesnt know the law needs to be educated and if you think hes going to do that on your own you are mistaken.
    No. If you read the second post, you saw that he admitted to my being in the right on the law when he was in error. There is no need to file a complaint against the Asst. Chief. He treated my professionally and recognized my knowledge of the law and his error.



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    You and I have different opinions of professional. Any detainment at all on his part was beyond the scope of his duty. By stopping you at all, he trespassed outside the bounds of his profession...ie, unprofessional.

    By continuing on and threatening to confiscate property that was legally in your possession, under the mere suspicion that it MIGHT be illigal for you, he again crossed another line that seriously breeches the oath of his profession.

    By raising his voice at you and telling you how he "didn't like your attitude" when you were treating him with nothing but respect....again, unprofessional.

    Just because you didn't end up laid out on the road, have your gun confiscated, or face any charges, doesn't mean the situation was a "good" one. It just means it is better than some.

    By filing a complaint, you are initiating offical action. It doesn't mean that you want the officer fired, suspended, etc. It just means that you are putting something on official record about what happened, and it gives them the means to act on it. Without a complaint, it'll likely be forgotten by next week. If you were doing something illigal that night, don't you think they would have initiated some hefty paperwork against you? This isn't about getting even, or venting anger against the Chief; it's about preventing things like this from happening to other people.

    Now, all that said....it was your encounter. Saint and I have already written emails giving our opinion on the matter. Whatever action (or non-action) you decide to take, I'll back.

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    My curiosity is if you were OCing, why did you even show him your maine permit?
    your drivers license or your ID card is your OPEN CARRY PERMIT......

    i cant stress enough to gun owners that they give up way too much information.
    i would have showed my open carry permit (Drivers license).
    then answered a few of his questions then asked if i could be on my way.
    just remember that keeping your mouth shut is not the same as being deceptive or even less then truthful.





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    Hiredgun30 wrote:
    My curiosity is if you were OCing, why did you even show him your maine permit?
    your drivers license or your ID card is your OPEN CARRY PERMIT.....
    That may be true in other states, but in Idaho you aren't even required to show your license or ID card. You can OC without ID; the burden of proof is on THEM to prove your not old enough, the guns not legally owned, etc.

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    my point was that showing a idaho drivers license or ID card would have been a better alternative, a maine permit has nothing to do with OCing in idaho.
    ONLY that it is a form of Out of state identification.




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