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Thread: Randon door to door searches

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    From KIRO 11o news

    In LaceyThurston county sheriffs will be going door to door collecting randon DNA samples to try to matchDNA from a rape case.

    These are Gestapo tactics.Now the have innocent peoples's dna on file.Whats next house to house gun grabs to search for a weapon in a murder case.This has got to stop or it never will.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Where the hell is the ACLU on this one?!

    Not that I (ever) put any faith in them for civil rights and definitely not after they declined to recognize the second amendment as a civil right even after the SCOTUS stated it was.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Yeah really,they should have an attorney going door to door advising people they do have to submit to this.

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    That is BS. If you comply then you are not a suspect. If you don't then you are. Total BS.



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    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Didn't catch this; I hate local news and rarely watch it. KIRO's web site is pretty lame and I didn't find reference to it.

    Anyway, in the OP, something doesn't add up. Is the agency wrong or the city wrong? Lacey is in Thurston, not Pierce.

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    Doesn't sound "random" "door-to-door" to me. Still questionable, though.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "LACEY, Wash. -- [/b]Police are still hunting for the person who attacked a woman when she was walking on a Lacey trail and now police want DNA samples from two dozen people, including those who aren't accused of any crimes.

    Lacey police have identified two dozen persons of interests in the case of a St. Martin’s University student who was attacked and raped in April on a popular trail near campus. Police said the rapist used a stun gun during the attack.

    Police said out of the 170 tips that came in about the case, detectives have narrowed it down to 24 men. They will soon be contacting the men by going to their homes and asking some for voluntary DNA samples.

    “That would be one of the easiest ways to eliminate somebody, would be to get a voluntary DNA sample," said Lt. Jim Mack of the Lacey Police Department.

    Detectives plan on sending the DNA samples to a lab to run tests for a possible match to the DNA from the rapist -- already collected at the crime scene.

    "I think if it helps narrow it down and help find the guy who raped the girl, I'm all for it you know," said Kylie Nelson of Lacey.

    Despite their progress, police said they can still use the public's help. Anyone with information should call 911.

    http://www.kirotv.com/news/17115896/detail.html

  7. #7
    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Oh, great - finally find the little search box and sort by date:

    LACEY, Wash. -- Police are still hunting for the person who attacked a woman when she was walking on a Lacey trail and now police want DNA samples from two dozen people, including those who aren't accused of any crimes.Lacey police have identified two dozen persons of interests in the case of a St. Martin’s University student who was attacked and raped in April on a popular trail near campus. Police said the rapist used a stun gun during the attack.Police said out of the 170 tips that came in about the case, detectives have narrowed it down to 24 men. They will soon be contacting the men by going to their homes and asking some for voluntary DNA samples. “That would be one of the easiest ways to eliminate somebody, would be to get a voluntary DNA sample," said Lt. Jim Mack of the Lacey Police Department. Detectives plan on sending the DNA samples to a lab to run tests for a possible match to the DNA from the rapist -- already collected at the crime scene."I think if it helps narrow it down and help find the guy who raped the girl, I'm all for it you know," said Kylie Nelson of Lacey. Despite their progress, police said they can still use the public's help. Anyone with information should call 911.

    ETA:
    [line]Oh yeah, and the appropriate response (and my prior posts will bear me out on this), "Uh, No, goodbye"

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Sorry Thurston, Even so that does not set right with me.I think it is deffinatley crossing the the line.I just caught the end of this story and heard door to door searches.I don,t like the idea of samples to as they say eliminate someone.They have a sketch ,description etc..Don,t be taking samples from innocent people randomly .focus on catching the the right guy.Absolute incompetence if they have to harass innocent folks.Which could ruin someones reputation.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    bcp wrote:
    Doesn't sound "random" "door-to-door" to me. Still questionable, though.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "LACEY, Wash. -- [/b]Police are still hunting for the person who attacked a woman when she was walking on a Lacey trail and now police want DNA samples from two dozen people, including those who aren't accused of any crimes.

    Lacey police have identified two dozen persons of interests in the case of a St. Martin’s University student who was attacked and raped in April on a popular trail near campus. Police said the rapist used a stun gun during the attack.

    Police said out of the 170 tips that came in about the case, detectives have narrowed it down to 24 men. They will soon be contacting the men by going to their homes and asking some for voluntary DNA samples.

    “That would be one of the easiest ways to eliminate somebody, would be to get a voluntary DNA sample," said Lt. Jim Mack of the Lacey Police Department.

    Detectives plan on sending the DNA samples to a lab to run tests for a possible match to the DNA from the rapist -- already collected at the crime scene.

    "I think if it helps narrow it down and help find the guy who raped the girl, I'm all for it you know," said Kylie Nelson of Lacey.

    Despite their progress, police said they can still use the public's help. Anyone with information should call 911.

    http://www.kirotv.com/news/17115896/detail.html
    Lets take that reasoning further.There is GUN murder in your neighborhood.To rule you out as a possible suspect ,we will need to collect all of your firearms.I know that sounds simplistic because tey can deterime caliber etc..But I believe we're not to far from that being a methodology in the appearence of solving a crime and also determining who has what and where.AND I would bet a months retirement you would never see you weapon again.Think of how damaging to ones reputation ,police showing up, taking a dna sample for a rape.Even though you are innocent that stigma will set firmly in the minds of your neighbors ,employers family ,everyone.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    I knew of the DNA database, but never really got into the details; you know important things like any RCW that authorizes it, history and directly related to this event - what do they do with the samples obtained from someone innocent.

    The RCW is Chapter 43.41 and starts at 43.41.752 through 43.41.759. It basically allows for the creation, authority/requirement to collect, sharing with the FBI database. It's kind of written all over the place. in that range, but a couple of things caught my attention - perhaps some LEO's on board could enlighten. Particularly since I'm coming at this from the stand-point that I don't think a sex offender DNA db is bad, no including convicted felons. Problem is the list seems to reach pretty far - to the point of throwing out a net and see how many fish you can catch. I know, if it was my daughter, etc. etc. Off track...

    Anyway from 43.43.754:
    DNA identification system — Biological samples — Collection, use, testing — Scope and application of section.

    (4) Any biological sample taken pursuant to RCW 43.43.752 through 43.43.758 may be retained by the forensic laboratory services bureau, and shall be used solely for the purpose of providing DNA or other tests for identification analysis and prosecution of a criminal offense or for the identification of human remains or missing persons. Nothing in this section prohibits the submission of results derived from the biological samples to the federal bureau of investigation combined DNA index system.


    Okay, that's all well and good; you have to wade through each of those RCW's. Nothing really special there; so I came back here to see if I could figure out what was bothering me.

    In 43.43.758:
    DNA identification system — Local law enforcement systems — Limitations.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, no local law enforcement agency may establish or operate a DNA identification system before July 1, 1990, and unless:

    (a) The equipment of the local system is compatible with that of the state system under RCW 43.43.752;

    (b) The local system is equipped to receive and answer inquiries from the Washington state patrol DNA identification system and transmit data to the Washington state patrol DNA identification system; and

    (c) The procedure and rules for the collection, analysis, storage, expungement, and use of DNA identification data do not conflict with procedures and rules applicable to the state patrol DNA identification system.

    (2) Nothing in this section shall prohibit a local law enforcement agency from performing DNA identification analysis in individual cases to assist law enforcement officials and prosecutors in the preparation and use of DNA evidence for presentation in court.

    So, where does my heartburn come from... Searching the RCW's, 758 is the only one that mentions expungement (c). Local agencies must.. well you can read it yourself. Back to 754 (4), "may be retained"... and shall be used soley blah blah blah. Nothing indicates that a voluntary sample taken from an innocent person is going to be destroyed or the record of it expunged. Only that it's use is limited to the blah blah blah part. As long as it is ultimately used for one of the provision (now or down the road, say 20 years), then it may be retained.

    I am definitely not an expert, so - please, LEO or just someone without dried out contacts and a better understanding of this, let me know where I veered off course.

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    bcp wrote:
    Doesn't sound "random" "door-to-door" to me. Still questionable, though.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    They will soon be contacting the men by going to their homes and asking some for voluntary DNA samples.
    Attention getting misleading headline. Simple answer would be kiss off

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    I have 3 daughters and if something ever happened to them I would want to do everthing I could to find out who did it.It still makes me nervous ,the authority to go around collecting random dna samples and unless I missed it I didn, see anything either in the RCW you posted about samples being destroyed.I have no problem with collecting a sample from 1 legitimate suspect if they have other corrborating evidence.Like you said throwing a net out to see what they catch in my mind is not ok.If they were doing their job they would have 1 legitimate suspect.I also agree with the convicted sex offender data base .But these are people already convicted.What they are doing out of jail anyway is is anotherthing.

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    I think some are blowing this way out of proportion. They are not going door-to-door and taking DNA. They are visiting persons of interest and requesting DNA. There is a big difference between the two. You have the right to tell them to pound sound and terminate the contact because it is not a detainment.

    Will this raise you on thier radar? More than likely it will to a degree, but for crying out loud this is how they catch the bad guy sometimes. Do I like the tactic? Not at all but as long as they keep it on a voluntary basis then do it because no one is forced into submitting DNA.

    As far as the database goes yes they do retain DNA patterns in it for everyone they collect it on. Should they restrict it to only sex offenders? Hell no, do you think that is the only crime where DNA left at the scene. There are murder cases and serial robbery cases solved through DNA evidence. Should it be harder to catch these guys if they are convicted felons because we don't have a sample of thier DNA because thier last felony was not a sex crime? Again, Hell no, they are convicted felons.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Police said out of the 170 tips that came in about the case, detectives have narrowed it down to 24 men. They will soon be contacting the men by going to their homes and asking some for voluntary DNA samples.
    I'm not sure how you get random searches from them having narrowed it down to 24 men from 170 tips. Sounds like they have 24 actual suspects based on some evidence and are just going from there.


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    Definitely not "random" or "door-to-door," but I wouldn't submit to anything without a warrant and my lawyer present.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    They made it sound more random leading into the story.24 is to random for me when looking for one.just bothers me.I wouldn,t submit to it either.

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    Well TV news is a bit sensationalist.

    Still having narrowed it down to 24 suspects is not "random"

    I wouldn't submit DNA info myself.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    I,ll concede your point to an extent.24 is less random. Still it would really refry my beans if they came around to meknowing I had nothing to do with it.The mediadoes get sensationalist and sometimes I need to remember that.It wouldn,t bother me as much if it were narrowed down to 2or3 legitimate suspects.

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    So, we've gone from "police are demanding DNA from random people" to "police are polity requesting DNA samples from 24 suspects". Sounds like sensationalism to me.



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    I figured something wasn't kosher last night about the reporting when I couldn't find any breaking news on The Olympian's website about this... Mind not that I am in the LEAST BIT biased towards that particular media outlet...:P

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    FogRider wrote:
    So, we've gone from "police are demanding DNA from random people" to "police are polity requesting DNA samples from 24 suspects". Sounds like sensationalism to me.

    And that is the ultimate issue here. Sometimes I think the media wants people to believe that we are living in a police state but I know deep down that they will spin the headline in which ever direction they think will sell the news.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    FogRider wrote:
    So, we've gone from "police are demanding DNA from random people" to "police are polity requesting DNA samples from 24 suspects". Sounds like sensationalism to me.

    And that is the ultimate issue here. Sometimes I think the media wants people to believe that we are living in a police state but I know deep down that they will spin the headline in which ever direction they think will sell the news.
    I don't really think with this sort of issue the media actually cares one way or the other. But a sensational headline "sells" better than an article about a completely legal act by the cops. With TV, they lead with what has film, rather than what is truly important.

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    I am a littel confused with all the talk about the headlines. Was the headlines talking about random door-to-door searches on TV, newspaper or just the OP's interpretation of what was said. I though the OP said that he only caught the end of the story and was posting from that. Are there any links to posts about the infamous headlines or have I misunderstood it.

    So far it appears to me that the OP only heard part of the story and assumed something that was different that the actual case. Inquiring minds want to know.

    The headlines in the linked story is:
    Police Investigating 24 People In Lacey Rape
    Nothing sensational about that.



  24. #24

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    ...Police said out of the 170 tips that came in about the case, detectives have narrowed it down to 24 men. They will soon be contacting the men by going to their homes and asking some for voluntary DNA samples.

    “That would be one of the easiest ways to eliminate somebody, would be to get a voluntary DNA sample," said Lt. Jim Mack of the Lacey Police Department.

    Detectives plan on sending the DNA samples to a lab to run tests for a possible match to the DNA from the rapist -- already collected at the crime scene.

    "I think if it helps narrow it down and help find the guy who raped the girl, I'm all for it you know," said Kylie Nelson of Lacey...
    They always try to sell the "This will eliminate you as a suspect" angle. Fact is, they aren't looking to eliminate anyone, they are looking to identify someone. Any eliminations are just a side effect. By asking for your DNA, they are essentially telling you that you are a suspect. I am sorry (well actually I am not...) but at the point you are considering me a suspect of something I am NOT going to help you in doing your job to gather evidence.

    If you wish to consider my lack of "cooperation" suspicious, knock yourself out and try to put enough evidence together to justify a warrant to collect the DNA. Until then go away.

    Fact is there are times when victims lie, or relationships fall apart and someone becomes vengeful, or evidence is planted. It may be a very small minority of cases, but it only takes one to royaly screw up a person's life.

    Duke University ring a bell with anyone? I personally know a guy who had consensual sex with a woman who he caught afterwardstrying to inseminate herself with thecontents of his condom after she dug it out of the trash. Had she succeeded, she could have named him as her babies daddy and gone after him for child support.

    Yes, they have a legal right to retain your DNA and add it to the database. THAT is what I have problem with. I have no problem with a database being mantained of anyone CONVICTED of a violent or sexual crime. When they start cataloging every identifiable DNA sample they come across, I think they have gone too far.

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    Regular Member Shy_Panda's Avatar
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    Must be nice to not already have your DNA on file.

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