Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Marksmanship: Sight Picture

  1. #1
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    Ok, I've always been told and have always read that to shoot accurately, one must focus on their front sight. I have read and been told that this holds true even when shooting with both eyes open in a "tactical" scenario. What do you guys think?

    I shoot with both eyes open, but I focus on the target. This not only feels natural to me, but my accuracy improved drastically from traditional one-eyed shooting. I understand focusing on the front sight when shooting at distance for accuracy, like with a rifle or for a precision pistol shot. My problem with staring at the front sight for "practical" pistol shooting is that it feels like I'm not paying attention to anything else going on. It's like driving down the highway staring at your hood ornament. You'll be able to keep the car in the lane, BUT you wont be able to see something in the road until you've hit it.

    So how do you guys aim?



  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    A few years ago there was an article in a gun magazine. Since its been a while I may have the exact numbers or a detail wrong. I'm confident on the substance, though.

    A police department interviewed something like 28 officers who had been involved in shootings on duty.

    Something like 20 of the officers had hit their target. The rest missed.

    The amazing piece of information was that none of the miss-ers could remember seeing their sights. All of the hitters could remember seeing their sights.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    For practical shooting I consider thatabout "2 or 3minutes of bad guy" is good enough. That being the case, I use a combination of primarily "metal on meat" (front of gun covers target) and secondary front sight/slide(barrel) alignment if I am shooting from eye level - which is rare for me.

    Due to eyes that will allow either seeing the sight but not the target, or using glasses to see the sight but not the target, I have gone to working on point-/ instinctive-shooting. It works for me. YMMV. I'm not here to debate the issue.

    Repetition so thatI can perform perfectly on demand is my goal. I'm not there yet, but I'm closer than I was yesterday. Dry firing helps, as does working with a coach.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    460

    Post imported post

    I aim both ways, because they both have their place.

    Focusing on the target is also known as "point shooting". It is far faster than trying to line up sights, somewhat less accurate, but at close range (where 99% of all handgun battles take place) CAN BE accurate enough, if it is practiced regularly. For longer ranges, the accuracy of point shooting dorps off considerably.

    Basically, the idea is just to "point" your weapon such that it appears surrounded by the target (from the point of view of a quick glance) and quickly, but SMOOTHLY squeeze the trigger. It's easy to get into a trigger jerk habit by point shooting, espceially if you are trying for speed- you shouldn't be. You should be working mainly for smoothness, and speed will come naturally with practice.

    For longer distance targets, using the sights (and focusing on the front sight is the correct way to line up a sight picture) is going to be far more accurate. As the target is farther away, there is less need for speed.

    HOWEVER, it should be noted that if the target in a self defense situtation is really much farther than 10-15 yards, shooting may not be the best tactical solution, AND distance can bring in to question the justification for the use of deadly force. In other words, if the threat is far enough away that point shooting is too inaccurate (assuming you have practiced it as you should), then it could very well be argued (by a prosecutor) that the threat was not "imminent".


  5. #5
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Alabama, USA
    Posts
    935

    Post imported post

    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    I aim both ways, because they both have their place.

    Focusing on the target is also known as "point shooting". It is far faster than trying to line up sights, somewhat less accurate, but at close range (where 99% of all handgun battles take place) CAN BE accurate enough, if it is practiced regularly. For longer ranges, the accuracy of point shooting dorps off considerably.

    Basically, the idea is just to "point" your weapon such that it appears surrounded by the target (from the point of view of a quick glance) and quickly, but SMOOTHLY squeeze the trigger. It's easy to get into a trigger jerk habit by point shooting, espceially if you are trying for speed- you shouldn't be. You should be working mainly for smoothness, and speed will come naturally with practice.

    For longer distance targets, using the sights (and focusing on the front sight is the correct way to line up a sight picture) is going to be far more accurate. As the target is farther away, there is less need for speed.

    HOWEVER, it should be noted that if the target in a self defense situtation is really much farther than 10-15 yards, shooting may not be the best tactical solution, AND distance can bring in to question the justification for the use of deadly force. In other words, if the threat is far enough away that point shooting is too inaccurate (assuming you have practiced it as you should), then it could very well be argued (by a prosecutor) that the threat was not "imminent".
    +1...good post Slayer

    Here http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm is a VERY good article on point shooting.
    To my thinking, if the target is too far to PS, I need a rifle.....:celebrate



  6. #6
    State Researcher dng's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    1,290

    Post imported post

    DreQo wrote:
    Ok, I've always been told and have always read that to shoot accurately, one must focus on their front sight. I have read and been told that this holds true even when shooting with both eyes open in a "tactical" scenario. What do you guys think?

    I shoot with both eyes open, but I focus on the target. This not only feels natural to me, but my accuracy improved drastically from traditional one-eyed shooting. I understand focusing on the front sight when shooting at distance for accuracy, like with a rifle or for a precision pistol shot. My problem with staring at the front sight for "practical" pistol shooting is that it feels like I'm not paying attention to anything else going on. It's like driving down the highway staring at your hood ornament. You'll be able to keep the car in the lane, BUT you wont be able to see something in the road until you've hit it.

    So how do you guys aim?

    Focus on the front sight. As soon as you start focusing on the target more than the sight, your groupings will fall apart. Bring the sights up to your eyes(Don't drop your head to the sights), locate the target, aim for center mass, focus on the front sight, aline with rear sights, and smooth trigger pull. If you really want to have some fun, load a couple dummy rounds in with a full magazine, and you will see how much you anticipate the recoil. Also, have someone stand beside you and pull the trigger; you just focus on the sight and target. You'll be amazed what a tight grouping you'll shoot when you are only focus on that sight. Then just learn the smooth trigger pull, and you'll be shooting like a pro.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lake Charles Area, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    1,723

    Post imported post

    I agree with slayer.

    They are just two different styles of shooting.

    Natrual Point of aim shooting doesn't require you to focus on the sites.

    Target shooting or pin point placement does.

    You can be accurate with both though, just one more than the other.

    In the Corps when we drilled CQB training, my Natrual Point of aim allowed me to double tap within 5'' in the chest, at around 40m. WIthout ever looking down the sites. Just throwing up and shooting. It was my muscle memory that allowed my Natrual point of aim, to make this happen.

    I DO NOT have this yet with my XDM. But it's coming around.

    The other day i was watching one of those famous pistoleer's hip shooting golf balls, right out of the draw, from 10 to 15 ft away. That's Natrual Point of Aim, and that comes with LOTS of Practice.







  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    uTAH-life member: NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, ,
    Posts
    291

    Post imported post

    Point shooting at defensive distances with handguns(30ish feet or closer) does work. HOWEVER: Focusing on the front sight like you should WILL be more acurate.



    The kicker? Guess what your mind will SCREAM at you to do when the ballon goes up? Yep, focus on the target. The ONLY way to overcome that instinct/reaction is totrain. Often.



    The only firearm that you should focus on the target with? A shotgun that you're shooting a load of shot out of. If you are using slugs, thenit's right back to the front sight.


    EDIT: Grammar

  9. #9
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    Ok, here's another problem. When I focus on the target, I see two sets of sights that are far enough apart that you can tell which is which. I have always instinctively moved to the correct set, and don't even really see the other set.

    When I focus on the front sight, I see two targets. Again, not a big deal as I instinctively aim for the correct one. I also see two rear sights, however, and they are very close together. The left side of the incorrect rear sight is directly in the middle of the correct rear sight, making the image very cluttered. All of this clears up when you close one eye, of course. This is why I find it so hard to shoot both eyes open, focused on the front sight during close quarters firing.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    uTAH-life member: NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, ,
    Posts
    291

    Post imported post

    It just takes practice. Keep after it, and your brain will figure it out. Right now your brain is still running on a preset notion that you should have one eye closed.

  11. #11
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Etzenricht, Germany
    Posts
    1,598

    Post imported post

    Front sight! Front Sight! Front Sight! I'll say it again.....FRONT SIGHT!!!!!!
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    460

    Post imported post

    Wow, Dustin. 40 meters with point shooting is pretty darned impressive! I'm up to about 15 feet (5 yards) with that kind of accuracy myself, but will continue to work on it.
    One other thing about point shooting. Focusing on the target in a self defense situation helps you to get a better take on the overall situation. You will more easily notice someone else in the vicinity of the target than if you are focused on your sights. You will also more easily see if and when the target's behavior changes. For example, if he suddenly decides to give up, drop his weapon and put his hands up, and you are focused on your front sight, you could easily miss that. However, it's likely some witness won't. Of course, focusing on the target is no guarantee that you will see it either, but like everything else, it's all about probabilities. You stand a better chance of noticing things like that if you are looking at the target.

    There's more to a self defense situation than just being able to hit the target with your shot. Much of it is situational awareness. Focusing on the target rather than on your gun will allow you to stay more aware of everything that is happening.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,715

    Post imported post

    DreQo wrote:
    Ok, here's another problem. When I focus on the target, I see two sets of sights that are far enough apart that you can tell which is which. I have always instinctively moved to the correct set, and don't even really see the other set.

    When I focus on the front sight, I see two targets. Again, not a big deal as I instinctively aim for the correct one. I also see two rear sights, however, and they are very close together. The left side of the incorrect rear sight is directly in the middle of the correct rear sight, making the image very cluttered. All of this clears up when you close one eye, of course. This is why I find it so hard to shoot both eyes open, focused on the front sight during close quarters firing.


    I have this exact same problem which is why I never even started shooting with both eyes open. In a tactical situation I'm able to simply point the gun while focusing on the target and be reasonably accurate, but for precision shooting I have always and will always close my left eye. I was on rifle team for six years and always shot better with an eye closed.

  14. #14
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Etzenricht, Germany
    Posts
    1,598

    Post imported post

    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    Wow, Dustin. 40 meters with point shooting is pretty darned impressive!
    No offence intended, but I have to call BS on this. You MIGHT get a lucky shot into a 5 inch ring once or twice, but not on a consistant basis. If you are point shooting with a handgun at someone at 130 FEET all you are doing is making noise and are recklessly throwing rounds into an area where an innocent bystander could be hit. YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY ROUND YOU FIRE! Not using your sights at that distance is irresponsible and foolhardy!

    I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone here but I think my creds are pretty damnsolid and I've shot with others on this board that can attest to my experience and shooting ability. There are times when point shooting is a necessity but point shooting should not be your primary method of engagement.

    If possible ALWAYS index the front sightpost on your target before you engage!


    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lake Charles Area, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    1,723

    Post imported post

    Ok at first I was quite offended but then I realized that I did not explain myself correctly.


    When I metioned the CQB training in the Corps, I meant with my rifle.

    By no way am I that accurate with a Pistol. I did qual double expert by the time I got out, but that's only up to 25m.

    Our DB tap training range started at 40m and ended at 5m with 4 set's of "Failure to Stop Drills".

    Once again with a RIFLE not the garbage 92 SF's they issued us. The point I was making is that I wans't able to do that until my 2nd year of shooting. Which was somewhere around 15,000 to 20,000 rounds down range later, through the same M16A4.

    What I'm mainly trying to drive home, is that Point Shooting accuracy ONLY comes from LOTS of Range time, which in return produces Outstanding Muscle Memory.

    The Muscle Memory is the end product that your looking for.

    Sorry for the confusion, and yes your right on about rasing the BS flag on that one, had I been talking about using a pistol :what:

  16. #16
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Etzenricht, Germany
    Posts
    1,598

    Post imported post

    Thanks for the clarification. BS flag lowered!
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lake Charles Area, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    1,723

    Post imported post

    ODA 226 wrote:
    Thanks for the clarification. BS flag lowered!
    Here, add this one to your favorites.

    http://www.citizens21.com/~civicryda.../BS%20Flag.gif



    I know your loving that :P



  18. #18
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Alabama, USA
    Posts
    935

    Post imported post

    ODA 226 wrote:
    There are times when point shooting is a necessity but point shooting should not be your primary method of engagement.

    If possible ALWAYS index the front sightpost on your target before you engage!
    I'd have to disagree if you are talking typical SD encounters. Since almost all SD shootings occur at less than 25ft and MOST at less than 10, if you take the time to utilize sights, the BG will likely accomplish his intended goal...to reach/shoot you.
    Think about it like this....it takes just barely over 2 seconds for a BG to reach you from 25ft, barely over 1 second at 10.....can you draw your pistol, raise it to eye level and fire 2 "sighted" shots in 2 seconds?
    I do agree though, IF POSSIBLE, index the front sight....it's just not likely you'll have time in a "real world" SD encounter....

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    uTAH-life member: NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, ,
    Posts
    291

    Post imported post

    Comp-tech, not calling you out or anything, but read more carefully ODA 226s post-



    He said to index the front sight. He didnot say obtain a good/proper sight picture. Therein is the critical detail.

    So you're both correct.

  20. #20
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Alabama, USA
    Posts
    935

    Post imported post

    41 Magnum wrote:
    Comp-tech, not calling you out or anything, but read more carefully ODA 226s post-



    He said to index the front sight. He didnot say obtain a good/proper sight picture. Therein is the critical detail.

    So you're both correct.
    No offense taken....my point is simply that, in a REAL WORLD SD situation, you likely won't even have time to remember that a pistol HAS sights, let alone use them....most often, you won't even have time to get your weapon from holster to eye level.
    Therefor point shooting should be practiced so that it WILL be your primary/instinctive method of engagement in a SD situation...remeber, most SD shootings happen at 10ft or less.
    Sure, if the BG is 30ft away, mouthing off and draws on you...draw,index and fire...just don't try it at 10ft...it may cost you your life....

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Western, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    308

    Post imported post

    41 Magnum wrote:
    He said to index the front sight. He didnot say obtain a good/proper sight picture. Therein is the critical detail.
    Sight alignment is different from sight picture. Yes, you should have your sights aligned, however with a correct sight picture, the rear sight& target are blurred as opposed to the front sight being clear.

    Trigger control is another important issue. As long as the trigger is pressed straight back, the sight picture will not be effected.

    Sight picture and trigger control go together like Chinese food and chocolate pudding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

  22. #22
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    catass wrote:
    41 Magnum wrote:
    He said to index the front sight. He didnot say obtain a good/proper sight picture. Therein is the critical detail.
    Sight alignment is different from sight picture. Yes, you should have your sights aligned, however with a correct sight picture, the rear sight& target are blurred as opposed to the front sight being clear.

    Trigger control is another important issue. As long as the trigger is pressed straight back, the sight picture will not be effected.

    Sight picture and trigger control go together like Chinese food and chocolate pudding.
    I dunno if that's the best simile. I pictured them both at the same time, on the same plate, all swirled together....:?

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Western, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    308

    Post imported post

    DreQo wrote:
    catass wrote:
    41 Magnum wrote:
    He said to index the front sight. He didnot say obtain a good/proper sight picture. Therein is the critical detail.
    Sight alignment is different from sight picture. Yes, you should have your sights aligned, however with a correct sight picture, the rear sight& target are blurred as opposed to the front sight being clear.

    Trigger control is another important issue. As long as the trigger is pressed straight back, the sight picture will not be effected.

    Sight picture and trigger control go together like Chinese food and chocolate pudding.
    I dunno if that's the best simile. I pictured them both at the same time, on the same plate, all swirled together....:?
    How about peanutbutter and ladies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •