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Thread: Shocking non-knock raid suggests police procedure needs to be reigned in

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    The only good thing about this is that an elected official was involved. This should get a lot more air play and bring this issue forward.

    I hope the mayor pulls his chief o' police in and has a VERY serious chat about his own town's policies.

    Shooting a cowering, retreating lab? That's just plain low-down.

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    Jim675 wrote:
    The only good thing about this is that an elected official was involved. This should get a lot more air play and bring this issue forward.

    I hope the mayor pulls his chief o' police in and has a VERY serious chat about his own town's policies.

    Shooting a cowering, retreating lab? That's just plain low-down.
    It was the Sheriff's Department.....The Sheriff is elected too but I do hope that it opens the eyes of more people. It is getting out of control.

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    Thanks for the move.

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    OUTRAGEOUS!!! Simply put I would be in jail. If those f***ers came into my home without cause (and I was not armed) and shot my dogs, the minute the cuffs were off someone, probably several someones, are getting a beat down. Plain and simple. Absolutely irrational, but honest. THIS HAS TO STOP!

    I guess being MD LEOs feel safe abusing the citizens being that very few are armed. Such a raid certainly falls under the heading of "I would like to see them come to rural MO and try that sh** against a LAC." A no-knock, no announce warrant around here would very easily end up in a firefight. I have talked to a local LEO who is on our local equivalent of a SWAT team about no-knock warrants and he stated to me that they very rarely use that tactic and are damn sure when they do for two reasons 1) the public isn't going to tolerate a mistake and 2) almost everyone has a gun and if they go to the wrong house, and especially if they do not announce, somebody is going to die. Now that was just one LEO's opinion but it makes sense to me.

    If the local public is not loudly outraged by this they deserve to be treated as third world residents. This incident clearly shows that anyone may be next.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Was just watching on CNN, at least it is getting air play and not to favorable to the State Police who conducted the raid. Local police not happy at all they were not notified. Who knows they might have joined in but at least would have had the common sense to say uhhhhh that is the mayors house.

    I don't buy the ever present excuse that we see and hear about all the time. I felt threatened so I shot the dog. Or I am gonna rough you up and slap you in cuffs for our protection/safety. By all means defend yourself if a bad guy points a gun at you. But you don't need to do a hostile takedown ongranny or anyone else for that matter because they don't agree with your questioning.

    This crap really angers me. It also make anyone with a badge look very bad.

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    Note the police after the fact justification that they HAD to barge in because since they were seen somebody might get a "gun."

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    hogleg wrote:
    Was just watching on CNN, at least it is getting air play and not to favorable to the State Police who conducted the raid. Local police not happy at all they were not notified. Who knows they might have joined in but at least would have had the common sense to say uhhhhh that is the mayors house.

    I don't buy the ever present excuse that we see and hear about all the time. I felt threatened so I shot the dog. Or I am gonna rough you up and slap you in cuffs for our protection/safety. By all means defend yourself if a bad guy points a gun at you. But you don't need to do a hostile takedown ongranny or anyone else for that matter because they don't agree with your questioning.

    This crap really angers me. It also make anyone with a badge look very bad.
    Whoa! The new reports I have seen and heard have said it was the Sheriff's dept that conducted the raid. Is that a typo/error or is this new information or misinformation as the case may be?


    Note the police after the fact justification that they HAD to barge in because since they were seen somebody might get a "gun."
    Yeah, and they had to shoot 2 friendly Labs because they barked.

    I hope these LEO are punished. Actually, I can't even express on this forum what I would personally be willing to do to the officers who shot the dogs without running a risk of being banned. What total SOBs!!! I usually have a pretty balanced opinion of LEO but there is nothing to balance here.

    These men shouldn't be cops. They shouldn't even be called men. They are bullies and cowards. These bullies shouldn't be members of any civilized community. These bullies should be stripped naked, tarred, feathered and then horse whipped in the town square and left to rot in the sun. Our ancestors knew better than us what to do with people like them. It is barbarisms such as this that creates scofflaws and outlaws. The next time an LEO wants to know why a law abiding citizen is rude, dismissive or downright hostile to them, point them to this article and to what is happening on their side of the thin blue line.

    This is what happens when the citizenry is unarmed. I don't think they would have pulled this crap in rural VA, KY, WV, PA, MO, etc. because there they wouldn't have to worry that someone might get a gun, they could be assured that somebody and perhaps several somebodies certainly had guns. Because they have a nearly disarmed population in MD, LEO abuses at will. The wolves will eat the sheep if the sheepdogs are defanged.

    Breaking into innocent law abiding citizen's homes is and should be a dangerous occupation for LE. My give a sh** meter for future deaths of LEOs in such scenarios is dangerously close to breaking.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Was on CNN TV they said "State Police were in charge of the Raid and did not have time to contact local Authorities." But you know how those reporters are. They don't know the difference between a Mailman and a US Marshal.

    They probably ment to say Sheriff or County Police


    Unfortunately that CNN crap is right behind my head all day long. BLAH BLAH BLAH.


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    hogleg wrote:
    Was just watching on CNN, at least it is getting air play and not to favorable to the State Police who conducted the raid. Local police not happy at all they were not notified. Who knows they might have joined in but at least would have had the common sense to say uhhhhh that is the mayors house.

    I don't buy the ever present excuse that we see and hear about all the time. I felt threatened so I shot the dog. Or I am gonna rough you up and slap you in cuffs for our protection/safety. By all means defend yourself if a bad guy points a gun at you. But you don't need to do a hostile takedown ongranny or anyone else for that matter because they don't agree with your questioning.

    This crap really angers me. It also make anyone with a badge look very bad.
    No bashing intended, I just don't feel that assassinating the labs (one a pup) was justified. :X

    Even if the dogs were chihuahua puppies, it still wouldhave beenfor "officer Safety."

    (sarcasm off)


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    And cops wonder why there is such a growing anti-LEO sentiment.

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    Not all. One of my trainer/instructors left our PD and went on to the ICOP. He taught that LEAs depend on an emotional account held by the public for the police and that the account is overdrawn. It would be nice for MPPD Captain S. Gragg to play here. I imagine that there aren't many USN BTs that are quite so well spoken.

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    WTF

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...,4563211.story

    I'm not sure about the facts of this case, but it's pretty sketchy. At the end of the article however, it points out that this sort of thing has happened before, but even worse, the LEOs got the totally wrong house/address or warrent had wrong address or had right address but LEOs didn't bring their GPS and went to wrong house.


    So, for LEO who read this site, I really am curious, does this sort of thing happen a lot? What sort of repercussions will the commanding officer face, if any? Sure people make mistakes, but we expect that our LEO are of a higher caliber of citizen, and that they have the resources to check, double check and triple check this sort of thing to make sure they are “doing the right thing” instead of making careless mistakes. I appreciate that a LEO has a very tough job and has to deal with the scum of the earth, but for something like this to happen, and then to read that it happens more than we think? Does it happen a lot?
    I’m not looking to point fingers or sideline quarterback; I can’t put myself in LEO shoes. But in situations where LEOs have the wrong house altogether, how often does this happen? What is the aftermath? Do homeowners who are subject to the “opps, sorry, we got the wrong house” entitled to a lawsuit or are the LEOs and department exempt?
    Lastly, as a side thought; the response and show of force from the story above you would think that LEO was hunting down a kingpin of a major syndicate. But the mayor?!?! Not to mention this was all over pot! Seriously? If the government’s war on drugs is supposed to make me feel safer, then why the f**k do I feel the exact opposite?

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    This website is interesting. It shouldn't cause one to become paranoid, but it shows that raids like the one you've referenced happen too often.

    http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

    Regards,
    -AR

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    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    This website is interesting. It shouldn't cause one to become paranoid, but it shows that raids like the one you've referenced happen too often.

    http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

    Regards,
    -AR
    Exactly where I was headed, too.

    According to Radley Balko, formerly of Cato Institute, over 40 innocent people have been killed in botched no-knock government home-invasion raids since the War on Drugs got started. 1980's.

    Definitely take some time to research this. Its a real eye-opener.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    This is one of MANY reasons why I believe "no knock warrants" should be outlawed. I'm sorry, but if you can't catch the person without breaking down their door with guns drawn, you need to work on your investigation skills.

    I mean, seriously... do these suspects never go out of their houses? And if they do, do they go out with an entourage of heavily armed bodyguards?

    Just stop the guy on his way out of the driveway while in his car. Block him in and prevent him from going into the house. Is this such a novel concept?

    As an aside, I do watch Dallas SWAT and Detroit SWAT on A&E and enjoy it as a "REAL" reality TV show. I mention this as a nod to the fact that some of the people they deal with are armed and dangerous and that some of the raids are on known crackhouses that they keep returning to. For the former, they can do as I mentioned; for the latter, it shouldn't ever be a problem of hitting the wrong house if you keep going there and are familiar with it.

    Oh, and in watching those shows, it's amazing how few arrests they actually make when they serve no-knock warrants. I'd wager 50% or more of the people they are after (at least on the show) are either not in the residence or can't be charged with a crime (even in the crack houses) and are set free.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    deepdiver wrote:
    I hope these LEO are punished. Actually, I can't even express on this forum what I would personally be willing to do to the officers who shot the dogs without running a risk of being banned. What total SOBs!!! I usually have a pretty balanced opinion of LEO but there is nothing to balance here.

    These men shouldn't be cops. They shouldn't even be called men. They are bullies and cowards. These bullies shouldn't be members of any civilized community. These bullies should be stripped naked, tarred, feathered and then horse whipped in the town square and left to rot in the sun. Our ancestors knew better than us what to do with people like them. It is barbarisms such as this that creates scofflaws and outlaws. The next time an LEO wants to know why a law abiding citizen is rude, dismissive or downright hostile to them, point them to this article and to what is happening on their side of the thin blue line.

    This is what happens when the citizenry is unarmed. I don't think they would have pulled this crap in rural VA, KY, WV, PA, MO, etc. because there they wouldn't have to worry that someone might get a gun, they could be assured that somebody and perhaps several somebodies certainly had guns. Because they have a nearly disarmed population in MD, LEO abuses at will. The wolves will eat the sheep if the sheepdogs are defanged.

    Breaking into innocent law abiding citizen's homes is and should be a dangerous occupation for LE. My give a sh** meter for future deaths of LEOs in such scenarios is dangerously close to breaking.
    +1

    My sentiments exactly.

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    Thanks for that link A.R. although reading some of the stories just makes you feel more depressed about this "war" our government hides behind, ya know? When are they going to figure out that it is not the drugs that is the problem, but the lack of education and failed program like this no child left behind bulls**t.

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    I'm surprised more people don't end up injured or dead from bursting into residences without announcement.

    And as far as the farkwit who thinks it's no big deal to assassinate someone's black labs in the name of 'safety', I hope he gets all he deserves in this life. This drug "war" sure has produced some *******.

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    Flanders007 wrote:
    Thanks for that link A.R. although reading some of the stories just makes you feel more depressed about this "war" our government hides behind, ya know?...
    You're welcome, but I would encourage you not to get depressed. It is a big problem, but one that can be fixed, in my opinion.

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    Ok, agreed A.R. maybe I shouldn't get so depressed about it. I should work hard to change it right? Well I hate to say it, but money talks, and I'm broke. The only way you can get ahead polictically is to raise more money than the "other guy."

    Are you going to help me start a collection?

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    A few things I found out after reading Randy Balko.

    There warrant was NOT a no knock warrant. I will say this again:

    There was no "no knock" warrant. There was a knock and announce warrant issued, and these cowboys just decided to take it to the next step. It is just some junkies or low level dealers inside, right? They won't complaint if we roll up the 4th amendment a little...besides, we have them with the drugs inside, slam dunk!

    I am actually glad this happened to the mayor. I hope it keep happens to elected officials, because nothing is going to change until it does. Far too many people figure it isn't their problem since they don't do drugs, or that only happens in the inner city, or whatever. They never think it can happen to them.

    This reminds me of that other case where the cops shot the family dog. The family got 9k for that one in a civil suit.

    It is laughable that anyone would even have a serious talk with anyone about this. People need to go to jail, lose some assets and future income over this. This was a 100% illegal raid, period. They overstepped what the warrant allowed them to.

    I think it is silly that the mayor would even talk to the cops about this for 2 hours in his house. I personally would have lost the ability to say anything other than "lawyer...lawyer...lawyer..."

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    codename_47 wrote:
    I think it is silly that the mayor would even talk to the cops about this for 2 hours in his house. I personally would have lost the ability to say anything other than "lawyer...lawyer...lawyer..."
    I think I'd be saying something completely different...I'd give an example but have been warned by Mike already...

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    just_a_car wrote:
    This is one of MANY reasons why I believe "no knock warrants" should be outlawed. I'm sorry, but if you can't catch the person without breaking down their door with guns drawn, you need to work on your investigation skills.
    +1

    It also curtails due process.

    I've said this before, but as gun owners, this is one of the battles we should be fighting first and foremost.

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    The "War on Drugs" is nothing but an assault on our freedoms.

    It infringes the right to due process, warrants, and the 2nd amendment - as well as the right to do with your body what you please.

    It is for this "silly" idea that we should legislate morality, but we are doing so at the cost of our freedom.

    Anyone who supports this supposed war on drugs is an idiot.

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