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Thread: Casual Concealment?

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    I have read on THR about people practising "casual concealment" in states that have a solid tradition of open carry. It seems that this is common in the Southwest especially, but I was wondering what people think about it for MI. For example, what if I carry my 1911 cross draw under an open button-down shirt, so that from the front it is visible, but it can't be seen from the back? Of course, I do have a CPL so that concern does not come into play. Is this legal? Could it be seen as threatening if I am checking out at a store and the clerk suddenly sees my gun half-concealed? The reason why I ask is that while I often carry concealed, my wardrobe does not lend itself well to full OC. I seldom tuck in shirts, so it kind of looks goofy when I have my shirt hiked up on one side to expose my 1911 in its holster. I actually am about to go for a walk with my wife with my shirt hiked over the holster, which is what brought up this topic.

    Thanks for the replies,

    -Rob

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    I have read on THR about people practising "casual concealment" in states that have a solid tradition of open carry. It seems that this is common in the Southwest especially, but I was wondering what people think about it for MI. For example, what if I carry my 1911 cross draw under an open button-down shirt, so that from the front it is visible, but it can't be seen from the back? Of course, I do have a CPL so that concern does not come into play. Is this legal? Could it be seen as threatening if I am checking out at a store and the clerk suddenly sees my gun half-concealed? The reason why I ask is that while I often carry concealed, my wardrobe does not lend itself well to full OC. I seldom tuck in shirts, so it kind of looks goofy when I have my shirt hiked up on one side to expose my 1911 in its holster. I actually am about to go for a walk with my wife with my shirt hiked over the holster, which is what brought up this topic.

    Thanks for the replies,

    -Rob
    IMO, although legal, I wouldrecommend to be completelyCC or completely OC. If your shirt hikes up while bending over or reaching for the top shelf atthe store, for example, it's really not a big concern. There are members here who hike their untucked (SP) shirt over the holster, quite regularly.

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    Guilty of hiking my shirt up and over, or rephrase positive on the hike over !

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    Search the phrase "Virginia tuck" on here.



    It's quite common in these parts. Basically it's carrying with an IWB holster and no cover garment.



    DocV

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    A search on both this forum and google turned up nothing on "Virginia Tuck".

    -Rob

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    I have read on THR about people practising "casual concealment" in states that have a solid tradition of open carry. It seems that this is common in the Southwest especially, but I was wondering what people think about it for MI. For example, what if I carry my 1911 cross draw under an open button-down shirt, so that from the front it is visible, but it can't be seen from the back? Of course, I do have a CPL so that concern does not come into play. Is this legal? Could it be seen as threatening if I am checking out at a store and the clerk suddenly sees my gun half-concealed? The reason why I ask is that while I often carry concealed, my wardrobe does not lend itself well to full OC. I seldom tuck in shirts, so it kind of looks goofy when I have my shirt hiked up on one side to expose my 1911 in its holster. I actually am about to go for a walk with my wife with my shirt hiked over the holster, which is what brought up this topic.

    Thanks for the replies,

    -Rob
    With a CPL you are covered (pun intended). You can have it partially or fully concealed or fully open or fully concealed. Not a problem with a CPL. Big problem without a CPL. I often pull my shirt up and tuck behind my holster to OC. I don't tuck in my shirt because I'm fat and I think I'm fooling people by wearing my shirts on the outside. But I notice others that OC that way as well.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Brian: now we just went over this. You are not fat, just big boned and robust! But I do agree, I often "hike up" to oc. More so with my windbreaker or jacket in spring/fall weather other wise my shirts are always tucked in anyway.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    robust... I like that!

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    I'm built along ample lines and generous proportions.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I'm just hung like:what:



    a dunlop:P



    or a goodyear:shock:

    more the wife cooks the larger i plump up



    when i open carry it still looks concealed


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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    when i open carry it still looks concealed


    That's called extra protective personal retention :celebrate

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    Venator - Have you talked to someone about that or can you point me to some info on it? Not that I don't trust you, it is just that it is a pretty serious thing to be wrong about. I enjoy carrying concealed (at work it is don't ask/don't tell), and I don't want to have my permit suspended.

    Thanks for the reply.

    -Rob

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    Venator - Have you talked to someone about that or can you point me to some info on it? Not that I don't trust you, it is just that it is a pretty serious thing to be wrong about. I enjoy carrying concealed (at work it is don't ask/don't tell), and I don't want to have my permit suspended.

    Thanks for the reply.

    -Rob

    Not sure what you are questioning. If you are asking can you OC with a CPL, then the answer is yes you can. Almost all of us have CPL's and we OC. You do not have to conceal your handgun with a CPL. The CPL allows us TO CONCEAL if we want to. Those that don't have a CPL MUST OC.

    IF you read the info page you will see all of the references in law and legal opinions on OC. There is no law against OC, so any person that can lawfully own a handgun can OC, including those with CPLs. You may be gun shy (pun intended) because of the propaganda the CPL instructors tell you about OC, but rest assured they are wrong.

    Having said all that, my spin is if someone sees a gun that was concealed (shirt rides high for a moment) they may think you are up to no good and call the police more quickly than if you were OCing in the first place. If you are obviously OCing then the thought process is, well that guy must be okay, because he is blazingly OCing and has nothing to hide. So my advice is, while it is legal to accidentally expose your gun while CCing, the perception might be different than if straight OCing. So either conceal well, or properly OC. Just my thoughts on this.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I should have been more clear. What I was asking about was how the exposure of a gun is interpreted legally. If I am only casually concealing it and I lean over a service counter to pick up my change, can that be interpreted as making some sort of calculated exposure of my gun meant to intimidate? I am originally from Detroit and have seen that done before, expressly to intimidate, and wasn't sure if it is an issue that is clear cut or can be argued based on the state of mind of the person who sees the gun. Clear as mud, right? I think that I will end up going fully one way or the other since I don't want a cop or concerned citizen to see the grip of my 1911 hanging out of the front of my shirt while I am getting coffee and start freaking out.

    -Rob

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    The issue is "intent".

    A prosecutor would have a hard time proving intent in your example of reaching to get your change.

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    I should have been more clear. What I was asking about was how the exposure of a gun is interpreted legally. If I am only casually concealing it and I lean over a service counter to pick up my change, can that be interpreted as making some sort of calculated exposure of my gun meant to intimidate? I am originally from Detroit and have seen that done before, expressly to intimidate, and wasn't sure if it is an issue that is clear cut or can be argued based on the state of mind of the person who sees the gun. Clear as mud, right? I think that I will end up going fully one way or the other since I don't want a cop or concerned citizen to see the grip of my 1911 hanging out of the front of my shirt while I am getting coffee and start freaking out.

    -Rob
    Well if the exposure was meant to intimidate, say if someone was giving you some crap and you drew back your coat to show them your gun, an argument for brandishing could be made.

    I was referring to an accidental exposure. If you want to inform all who see you that you are prepared to defend yourself, then OC may be the way to go. A gun in a holsteris not considered brandishing.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Roger that. I thought that the CPL covers me. I probably will go with the casual concelament sometime in the near future to see how that goes. It isn't that I want to do it per se, but that I like wearing open button-down shirts year round.

    -Rob

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    I do like the idea of casual carry. I can't see anything wrong with it, although appearing to hide a gun is the kind of thing that would set off suspicion. The main idea is good, though. Instead of open or conceal carry, just carry. OWB holster with tight shirt kinda over the top part may be how I end up carrying the most.

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    A search on both this forum and google turned up nothing on "Virginia Tuck".

    -Rob
    Rob,

    Here you go. The Virginia tuck or Virginia carried is discussed:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...=Virginia+tuck

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...=Virginia+tuck



  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Way back, when I first got my CPL, I did some checking, and I was also told by my instructor (a very wise man) that OC is legal in Michigan, although he suggested against it, for the reason that many local PD's don't know it is.

    But he told me, if my pistol were to be exposed, I did not have to worry. I was still legal. So, from the day I got my CPL, I practiced what would probably be called "casual CC." And in general, hardly anyone ever noticed.

    Only 2 people did that I recall. One guy said nothing, just stared a lot. I think he was trying to decide if I was an off duty cop or something. The other guy just said, "your gun is showing." To which I said, "Imagine that." And went about my business.

    Oh, there was the time when I went into the Quiznos in East Lansing during a MSU LEO convention, otherwise known as "lunch," and got quizzed by a couple of MSUPD officers as to whether or not I had a CPL.

    So, I'd say yeah, you're safe to "casual conceal." Based on my experiences.

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    Update: It appears that casual concealment won't even be an issue, since the first time I OC'd around town this week hardly anybody even noticed I had a 5" 1911 in cross-draw, no cover. Hurray for our rushed society, where nobody even noticed it was there. Seriously, no glances, no acknowledgment. I am really surprised. If causally concealed I am sure that 99% of people wouldn't notice.

    -Rob

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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    Update: It appears that casual concealment won't even be an issue, since the first time I OC'd around town this week hardly anybody even noticed I had a 5" 1911 in cross-draw, no cover. Hurray for our rushed society, where nobody even noticed it was there. Seriously, no glances, no acknowledgment. I am really surprised. If causally concealed I am sure that 99% of people wouldn't notice.

    -Rob
    Welcome to the OC world.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    Update: It appears that casual concealment won't even be an issue, since the first time I OC'd around town this week hardly anybody even noticed I had a 5" 1911 in cross-draw, no cover. Hurray for our rushed society, where nobody even noticed it was there. Seriously, no glances, no acknowledgment. I am really surprised. If causally concealed I am sure that 99% of people wouldn't notice.

    -Rob
    Most people won't/don't notice, unless you make sure they do. At least that has been my Oc experience so far. When i OC it is no different than carryig my cell phone hanging from my hip.

  24. #24
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    Rob Washeleski wrote:
    Update: It appears that casual concealment won't even be an issue, since the first time I OC'd around town this week hardly anybody even noticed I had a 5" 1911 in cross-draw, no cover. Hurray for our rushed society, where nobody even noticed it was there. Seriously, no glances, no acknowledgment. I am really surprised. If causally concealed I am sure that 99% of people wouldn't notice.

    -Rob
    We've been saying this for a long time, not sure why people don't believe us.

    The general public are for the most part, oblivious.

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