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Thread: First negative OC experience- Staunton

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    So, I moved to Staunton, VA on Monday for school. Today I had a few little errands to run (AbNo and I are going to the range tomorrow, so I needed to ingredients for dinner). I walked all through Martin's without a word or a second glance that I could see, but they didn't have a good price on frozen brocolli, so I went to get it from Food Lion. Next to the Food Lion is a Dollar General. Since I didn't have anything frozen in my car yet, I figured I'd poke around for a few minutes- see if they had any really cheap essentials.

    Once I walked in the door, a manager approached me and told me they didn't allow large handbags in the store and would I leave it outside? I told her I did understand, since I had worked in a store with a major shoplifting problem before (though I was still a little annoyed because the pants I'm wearing only have one very small pocket that only just fits my cell phone). I commented that I thought she had been approaching me about my gun.
    She did a double take and began 'Well... now that I see that you have that.... I mean, I'm sure you're licensed to carry'
    'Actually, Virginia law states that licenses are only needed to conceal, and I'm open carrying.'
    She argued with me that I did need a license, then told me I'd have to lock it in my car for the safety of the store. At that point, I'm quite tired of being treated like a criminal for the audacity to think there might be something I want to purchase at that store. I told her if that was the case, then I'd just take my business elsewhere, and have a nice day.

    I go into Food Lion and do a full lap of the store without a comment, make my purchases, and go out to my car. At that point, a Staunton police cruiser pulls up behind me, blocking me in. My gun is fully displayed on the dashboard. The officer comes to my window and asks for an ID, so I handed him my military dependent ID. He asks to see my gun 'for safety', then says that this manager called him to report that I was being belligerent and attempting to unlawfully conceal a firearm. I laugh and turn out my one tiny pocket and say I wouldn't even attempt to fit my gun in there. Another policeman comes up at this point and asks me where I got the gun. I tell him I got it for my birthday.
    The first cop is looking seriously at my ID and asks what organization I'm a part of. I tell him I'm a Colonel's daughter.

    They run my ID's and my gun and I didn't want to argue since the woman in the store had told them I was belligerent and hostile. I just smiled pleasantly and had a chat with the one while everything was being run, telling him I didn't have a concealed because I had no good place to conceal and that I figured it would be a hassle sometimes. The second cop comes back and I show both of them exactly how my gun was on my hip, and that I wasn't trying to hide anything. The second reminds me to keep my gun prominently displayed in my car, and the first said that I had had it right on the dashboard when he had pulled up. They then both told me to have a nice day, waved as they pulled out, and I came home.

    So yeah, Dollar General in Staunton will treat you like a criminal for attempting to shop there. If it's such a dangerous store that only criminals shop there, then I'm going to make sure to never put myself in such a dangerous situation again.

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    I'd make a formal complaint against the store manager.

    As in goto a magistrate and swear out a warrant or press charges. Shenot only treated you like a criminal, she tried to turn you into one.

    You were falsely accused of a crime. A false report was made to the police.

    FIrst, though, I'm thinking it might be smart to FOIA the 911 call and radio traffic. If you swear out a warrant first, the police will withhold the recordings as part of a current criminal investigation. Get the recordings first, then swear out the warrant.

    Off the cuff, the police seem to have acted within the bounds of the law. All except the ID part. If you were reported as an attempted gun-concealer, that would give police RAS to detain you, I'm thinking. Since the report included belligerent, the police would seem to have the second element of Terry--reasonable suspicion that the detainee is presently dangerous.

    The false accusation from the store manager absolutely cannot be tolerated. Its only by the good graces of the officers that your situation didn't get worse. If you had not persuaded them the accusations were baseless, you could have been in hot water. Also, thank the stars you got honest cops. Dishonest or anti-gun cops like Legba ran into could have made it much worse for you. Also, consider that if the store manager is willing to lie this much, its only one tiny step more for her to say you actually touched the gun or made a threat.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I agree with Citizen; it seems the problem here is the store manager, not the police. In any case: FOIA, FOIA, FOIA!

    If yu go that route, don't post any other details until you get that ball rolling. If the manager did indeed make a false accusation, it may be revealed in the 911 call.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    I agree with Citizen; it seems the problem here is the store manager, not the police. In any case: FOIA, FOIA, FOIA!

    If yu go that route, don't post any other details until you get that ball rolling. If the manager did indeed make a false accusation, it may be revealed in the 911 call.
    In fact, if you go that route, delete the OP and ask Mike or John to delete the thread.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The problem was definitely the manager, not the police. They were quite friendly and respectful. I'm planning on calling Dollar General's corporate office tomorrow and making a complaint. Unfortunately, I didn't get a good look at the woman's name tag.

    If she had just called the police, I might have understood that she was just being overzealous. It's the police telling me that they had heard I was attempting to conceal and that I was being belligerent... I smiled pleasantly the whole time, so they saw quite clearly that I was not at all belligerent. Practically the only way I could have been more friendly would have been to offer them some of the chocolate candy I had bought for tomorrow.

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    Kudos for keeping a level head and staying polite the whole time. How's that saying go about an Armed Society?

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    So, in order to protect people from her, are yougoing to press charges against the manager?

    Realize, too, that if she is willing to falsely report you, she is also quite possibly willing to falsely report an innocent adult or youth for shoplifting.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I don't really know how to go about pressing charges (especially since I can't remember her name). I figured the complaint to corporate would be a start.

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    Kendo_Bunny wrote:
    I don't really know how to go about pressing charges (especially since I can't remember her name). I figured the complaint to corporate would be a start.
    You or a friend go back to the store and ask her name. Or, when you are ready, you could ask the police for it.

    Then you look up the address for the nearest magistrate.

    Then you go to the magistrate and make your complaint under raised-hand oath. If he/she agrees there is probable cause a crime was committed, they will make out a warrant.

    Eventually, you will receive a subpoena to testify. In this case, I'm guessing petit court (lesser offenses).
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    I'd make a formal complaint against the store manager.

    As in goto a magistrate and swear out a warrant or press charges. Shenot only treated you like a criminal, she tried to turn you into one.

    You were falsely accused of a crime. A false report was made to the police.

    This is not what a "false report to police" charge is. You would be laughed at if you went to the Magistrate to seek that warrant.

    You dealt with someone who didnt know what the law was, acted stupidly and asked you to take your gun outside. No crime was committed along the lines of making a false report to police.


    ETA - there is no such thing as "petit court"
    James Reynolds

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    It sounds like you may be considering not pressing charges.

    While I urge you to press charges, I won't criticize you if you don't. Much.

    If you decide not to press charges, I do recommend letting the manager and the home office know in no uncertain terms that it is only your grace that has averted thetrouble and expense of the manager being charged. Be sure to mention the expense of a legal defense to the manager. That is about the only thing that will keep someone like this from lyinglike this again. Obviously personal integrity won't.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'd make a formal complaint against the store manager.

    As in go*to a magistrate and swear out a warrant or press charges.** She*not only treated you like a criminal, she tried to turn you into one.*

    You were falsely accused of a crime.* A false report was made to the police.
    This is not what a "false report to police" charge is. You would be laughed at if you went to the Magistrate to seek that warrant.

    You dealt with someone who didnt know what the law was, acted stupidly and asked you to take your gun outside. No crime was committed along the lines of making a false report to police.
    If she had just asked me to take my gun outside, this wouldn't even be an issue. It's that she told the police I was attempting to conceal a weapon without a license and that I was being belligerent.

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'd make a formal complaint against the store manager.

    As in goto a magistrate and swear out a warrant or press charges. Shenot only treated you like a criminal, she tried to turn you into one.

    You were falsely accused of a crime. A false report was made to the police.
    This is not what a "false report to police" charge is. You would be laughed at if you went to the Magistrate to seek that warrant.

    You dealt with someone who didnt know what the law was, acted stupidly and asked you to take your gun outside. No crime was committed along the lines of making a false report to police.

    I respectfully disagree. Based on the OP, the entire discussion was about OC. The manager clearly felt that it needed to be licensed nonetheless. The manager even said, "Now that I see you have that..." (emphasis added)

    A concealed weapon isa Class 1 misdemeanor in VA on firstconviction. Up to 1 year in jail and ($250?) fine. Class 6 and 5 felonies for second and third offenses. This is not a light matter. See 18.2-308.A; link below.

    For now, we're assuming the cop gave an accurate representation of what the 911 caller said. The proof will be in the 911 call and radio traffic recordings, either way.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
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    Citizen wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'd make a formal complaint against the store manager.

    As in goto a magistrate and swear out a warrant or press charges. Shenot only treated you like a criminal, she tried to turn you into one.

    You were falsely accused of a crime. A false report was made to the police.
    This is not what a "false report to police" charge is. You would be laughed at if you went to the Magistrate to seek that warrant.

    You dealt with someone who didnt know what the law was, acted stupidly and asked you to take your gun outside. No crime was committed along the lines of making a false report to police.

    I respectfully disagree. Based on the OP, the entire discussion was about OC. The manager clearly felt that it needed to be licensed nonetheless. The manager even said, "Now that I see you have that..." (emphasis added)

    A concealed weapon isa Class 1 misdemeanor in VA on firstconviction. Up to 1 year in jail and ($250?) fine. Class 6 and 5 felonies for second and third offenses. This is not a light matter.

    For now, we're assuming the cop gave an accurate representation of what the 911 caller said. The proof will be in the 911 call and radio traffic recordings, either way.

    Citizen - please tell me what your background and training and/or knowledge is to justify your answer.

    No crime was committed. The manager thought thata license to carry a firearm was needed. The OP said that no license was needed. The manager more than likely made a complaint that there was (in their eyes)an irate person in their store illegally carrying a firearm because due to their lack of knowledge, they didnt know that you can open carry without a permit.

    That is still not "Making a false report to police"

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'd make a formal complaint against the store manager.

    As in goto a magistrate and swear out a warrant or press charges. Shenot only treated you like a criminal, she tried to turn you into one.

    You were falsely accused of a crime. A false report was made to the police.
    This is not what a "false report to police" charge is. You would be laughed at if you went to the Magistrate to seek that warrant.

    You dealt with someone who didnt know what the law was, acted stupidly and asked you to take your gun outside. No crime was committed along the lines of making a false report to police.

    A concealed weapon isa Class 1 misdemeanor in VA on firstconviction (correct). Up to 1 year in jail and ($250?) fine (incorrect - The penalty is up to 12 months in jail and/or up to a $2500 fine or any combination of those 2).
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Citizen - please tell me what your background and training and/or knowledge is to justify your answer.

    No crime was committed. The manager thought thata license to carry a firearm was needed. The OP said that no license was needed. The manager more than likely made a complaint that there was (in their eyes)an irate person in their store illegally carrying a firearm because due to their lack of knowledge, they didnt know that you can open carry without a permit.

    That is still not "Making a false report to police"
    Special backround is not needed to evaluate facts and law on their face. Would you really accept my opinion if I said I was an attorney or retired judge? (rhetorical question)

    The officertoldthe OPer during the stop that the manager reported anattempt to unlawfully conceal a handgun. That's the report. It wasn't reported as an illegally carried handgun. It was reported as an attempt to illegally conceal a handgun.

    If it turns out the managerwas just confused or said something else entirely based on the 911 call tapes, so be it. I'm guessing KendoBunny would be able to figure that out.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    ProShooter wrote:
    That is still not "Making a false report to police"

    OK.I'm not in this case trying to be lawyerly or use correct legal terminology.

    Call it making a false accusation.

    Thank you for clarifying the fine on a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
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    I give up. I tried. Please go to the Magistrate and swear out a warrant.
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter wrote:
    I give up. I tried. Please go to the Magistrate and swear out a warrant.

    Rather than make acynical comment, why not address the statements.

    I'm a big boy. So is Tomahawk.

    Based on the information in the OP, why was there not a false accusation or report or whatever you want to call it?

    1. It is my understanding that a false accusation was made.

    2. It is my understandinga false accusationis chargeable.

    3. It is definitely my understanding that OCers have been arrested for less.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
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    Citizen wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I give up. I tried. Please go to the Magistrate and swear out a warrant.

    Rather than make acynical comment, why not address the statements.

    I'm a big boy. So is Tomahawk.

    Based on the information in the OP, why was there not a false accusation or report or whatever you want to call it?

    1. It is my understanding that a false accusation was made.

    2. It is my understandinga false accusationis chargeable.

    3. It is definitely my understanding that OCers have been arrested for less.

    A false accusation was made. That is different than making a false report to police.

    Let's say that you were a wife and your husband came home drunk. He beat you up and you called police. when the police arrived, you told them that your husband beat you up, and you had a bruise to show for it. Hubby gets arrested for domestic assault.

    Fast forward to the court date. Hubby has been rotting in jail and his income is what you need to live on. You get up on the witness stand and testify that your husband did not beat you up, but that you merely fell down the stairs. Now, you are either lying to the judge (perjury) or you lied to the police officer and reported a crime that you now say did not occur. That is making a false report to police.

    Someone reporting what they think is a crime and being wrong because no crime was actually committed is not the same as knowingly making a false report. Also, civilians throw words around like "carry a gun" and "concealing a gun" and do not understand the legal meaning of what they are saying. Its like when you said that the penalty for a Class 1 misdemeanor is one year in jail. Its not, its 12 months. Under Va law, 12 months and one year are 2 different things, but to the average person, 12 months is a year.

    OC'ers have been arrested for less, but circumstances vary from case to case.


    If the OP feels that a crime was committed, then I urge them to seek a warrant. That's what Magistrates and Judges get paid for.
    James Reynolds

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    Proshooter is right and while it is one thing to go on about small details in law in General, it is another to tell this person to Go to a Magistrate and make a fool of his/her self.

    If you go over what you've written in this thread, you may notice that in this instance, you are on the verge of the unlawful practice of law. I don't give a damn about that but Mike might might get upset if the Bar crawls up his ass.

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    § 18.2-461. Falsely summoning or giving false reports to law-enforcement officials.
    It shall be unlawful for any person (i) to knowingly give a false report as to the commission of any crime to any law-enforcement official with intent to mislead, or (ii) without just cause and with intent to interfere with the operations of any law-enforcement official, to call or summon any law-enforcement official by telephone or other means, including engagement or activation of an automatic emergency alarm. Violation of the provisions of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    (Code 1950, § 18.1-401; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1996, cc. 753, 815.)

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    ProShooter wrote:
    A false accusation was made. That is different than making a false report to police...
    I guess I just don't see how you are arriving at the idea this was an innocent call on the manager's part.

    She clearly had a personal objection to the firearm. "Keep it in the car for store safety," or some such.

    Also, the officer's questions focused on CC.

    The viewer has to read something into the facts to arrive at the idea the manager was not intending to make a false accusation. The facts, so far, taken without alteration, or reading anything into them, clearly add up to a false accusation.

    Here is what I found in the VA Code:

    § 18.2-461. Falsely summoning or giving false reports to law-enforcement officials.

    It shall be unlawful for any person (i) to knowingly give a false report as to the commission of any crime to any law-enforcement official with intent to mislead, or (ii) without just cause and with intent to interfere with the operations of any law-enforcement official, to call or summon any law-enforcement official by telephone or other means, including engagement or activation of an automatic emergency alarm. Violation of the provisions of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-401; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1996, cc. 753, 815.)

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-461
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    peter nap wrote:
    If you go over what you've written in this thread, you may notice that in this instance, you are on the verge of the unlawful practice of law. I don't give a damn about that but Mike might might get upset if the Bar crawls up his ass.
    Thanks for the warning.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    peter nap wrote:
    Proshooter is right and while it is one thing to go on about small details in law in General, it is another to tell this person to Go to a Magistrate and make a fool of his/her self.
    How does one make a fool of themselves in this case?

    There are an awful lot of people who think carrying a concealed handgun is a crime. In that the OP did not attempt to conceal the gun while in the store, I find it inescapable thatthe manager'sreport was justthat--an attempt to falsely report a crime.

    We're not talking about someone reporting a loud stereo because they are incorrectly sure it is illegal. We're talking about someone falsely reporting something they are correctly sure is illegal.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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