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First negative OC experience- Staunton

peter nap

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Proshooter is right and while it is one thing to go on about small details in law in General, it is another to tell this person to Go to a Magistrate and make a fool of his/her self.

If you go over what you've written in this thread, you may notice that in this instance, you are on the verge of the unlawful practice of law. I don't give a damn about that but Mike might might get upset if the Bar crawls up his ass.
 

Virginiaplanter

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§ 18.2-461. Falsely summoning or giving false reports to law-enforcement officials.
It shall be unlawful for any person (i) to knowingly give a false report as to the commission of any crime to any law-enforcement official with intent to mislead, or (ii) without just cause and with intent to interfere with the operations of any law-enforcement official, to call or summon any law-enforcement official by telephone or other means, including engagement or activation of an automatic emergency alarm. Violation of the provisions of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.
(Code 1950, § 18.1-401; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1996, cc. 753, 815.)
 

Citizen

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ProShooter wrote:
A false accusation was made. That is different than making a false report to police...
I guess I just don't see how you are arriving at the idea this was an innocent call on the manager's part.

She clearly had a personal objection to the firearm. "Keep it in the car for store safety," or some such.

Also, the officer's questions focused on CC.

The viewer has to read something into the facts to arrive at the idea the manager was not intending to make a false accusation. The facts, so far, taken without alteration, or reading anything into them, clearly add up to a false accusation.

Here is what I found in the VA Code:

§ 18.2-461. Falsely summoning or giving false reports to law-enforcement officials.

It shall be unlawful for any person (i) to knowingly give a false report as to the commission of any crime to any law-enforcement official with intent to mislead, or (ii) without just cause and with intent to interfere with the operations of any law-enforcement official, to call or summon any law-enforcement official by telephone or other means, including engagement or activation of an automatic emergency alarm. Violation of the provisions of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-401; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1996, cc. 753, 815.)

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-461
 

Citizen

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peter nap wrote:
If you go over what you've written in this thread, you may notice that in this instance, you are on the verge of the unlawful practice of law. I don't give a damn about that but Mike might might get upset if the Bar crawls up his ass.
Thanks for the warning.
 

Citizen

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peter nap wrote:
Proshooter is right and while it is one thing to go on about small details in law in General, it is another to tell this person to Go to a Magistrate and make a fool of his/her self.

How does one make a fool of themselves in this case?

There are an awful lot of people who think carrying a concealed handgun is a crime. In that the OP did not attempt to conceal the gun while in the store, I find it inescapable thatthe manager'sreport was justthat--an attempt to falsely report a crime.

We're not talking about someone reporting a loud stereo because they are incorrectly sure it is illegal. We're talking about someone falsely reporting something they are correctly sure is illegal.
 

peter nap

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Citizen wrote:
peter nap wrote:
Proshooter is right and while it is one thing to go on about small details in law in General, it is another to tell this person to Go to a Magistrate and make a fool of his/her self.
How does one make a fool of themselves in this case?
It's easy, just follow your advice!
 

Citizen

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peter nap wrote:
Citizen wrote:
peter nap wrote:
Proshooter is right and while it is one thing to go on about small details in law in General, it is another to tell this person to Go to a Magistrate and make a fool of his/her self.
How does one make a fool of themselves in this case?
It's easy, just follow your advice!

I'm sorry, Peter. That answer doesn't provide enough information for someone to come to an informed conclusion.

I'm quite happy to learn the workings of the legal system. I may not like them. I may not enjoy being wrong and having to retract or eat crow; but I'd rather know.

I don't really care what it is; I just want to know what it is. Then I'll figure out whether I care.
 

Virginiaplanter

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Kimberlein v. Commonwealth, Va. App. ( 2005).

Pursuant to Code § 18.2-461(i), it is a Class 1 misdemeanor “to knowingly give a false
report as to the commission of any crime to any law-enforcement official with intent to mislead.”

Admitting he made the call to the police regarding the gray Camaro, appellant contends he did not do so with the intent to mislead the police...


“Intent is a state of mind that may be proved by an accused’s acts
or by his statements and that may be shown by circumstantial
evidence.” The specific intent to commit [a crime] may be inferred
from the conduct of the accused if such intent flows naturally from
the conduct proven. Where the conduct of the accused under the
circumstances involved points with reasonable certainty to a
specific intent to commit [the crime], the intent element is
established. Wilson v. Commonwealth, 249 Va. 95, 101, 452 S.E.2d 669, 673-74 (1995) (citations omitted)....

...Appellant was verbally abusive to Furlong and tried to prevent her from driving to his residence. Once they reached appellant’s residence, appellant told Furlong he would “get her back.” Appellant immediately called the police. He reported two women had shot at his residence from a gray Camaro and that the women possessed cocaine. Stopped by the police within minutes of appellant’s call, Furlong and her passenger possessed neither firearms nor drugs.

Viewed in the light most favorable to the Commonwealth, the evidence proved appellant,
following through on his threat to retaliate against Furlong, made a false report of shots fired by two women in a gray Camaro. Appellant’s words and actions evince his intent to mislead the police and cause them to stop Furlong’s vehicle. Thus, the evidence was sufficient to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that appellant was guilty of the charged offense.
 

peter nap

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Citizen wrote:
peter nap wrote:
Citizen wrote:
peter nap wrote:
I'm sorry, Peter. That answer doesn't provide enough information for someone to come to an informed conclusion.

I'm quite happy to learn the workings of the legal system. I may not like them. I may not enjoy being wrong and having to retract or eat crow; but I'd rather know.

I don't really care what it is; I just want to know what it is. Then I'll figure out whether I care.


Pro shooter's already gone over it. The simple fact is that IF a false report was made, it's the officers affair. Kendo Bunny may have a civil case depending on exactly was told 911. Something none of us know....but not a criminal case.

Now if she/he goes to a magistrate, especially one in Staunton where they are famous for being unpleasant, he/she will come out without failing any criminal charges and a big dose of hurt feelings.
 

Citizen

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peter nap wrote:
SNIP Pro shooter's already gone over it. The simple fact is that IF a false report was made, it's the officers affair. Kendo Bunny may have a civil case depending on exactly was told 911. Something none of us know....but not a criminal case.

OK. Thank you for the response.

I have different information.

I've been to a magistrate several times swearing out warrants for criminal matters.

Are you saying only the recipient of the criminal offense, in this case the police, can press charges? Where a mugging victim who learned her assailant's identity could ask for the warrant as the direct victim?
 

ProShooter

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peter nap wrote:
Citizen wrote:
peter nap wrote:
Citizen wrote:
peter nap wrote:
I'm sorry, Peter. That answer doesn't provide enough information for someone to come to an informed conclusion.

I'm quite happy to learn the workings of the legal system. I may not like them. I may not enjoy being wrong and having to retract or eat crow; but I'd rather know.

I don't really care what it is; I just want to know what it is. Then I'll figure out whether I care.


Pro shooter's already gone over it. The simple fact is that IF a false report was made, it's the officers affair. Kendo Bunny may have a civil case depending on exactly was told 911. Something none of us know....but not a criminal case.

Now if she/he goes to a magistrate, especially one in Staunton where they are famous for being unpleasant, he/she will come out without failing any criminal charges and a big dose of hurt feelings.


Peter - you are wasting your breath brother, let them seek a warrant if they feel that a crime was committed.
 

Citizen

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ProShooter wrote:
Peter - you are wasting your breath brother, let them seek a warrant if they feel that a crime was committed.
We're asking questions, and getting answers that seem to be leading somewhere, thank you very much.
 

Kendo_Bunny

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At the moment, I'm just planning on reporting the manager's actions to her corporate offices. The police were kind of giving me the vibe that she called a lot and they didn't really take her seriously. That is dangerous for her store's safety.
 

Citizen

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ProShooter wrote:
Let me ask you this...

If a false report crime was committed, why didnt the police act on that and arrest the manager right then and there?

No, I won't let you ask, or rather I won't pay attention to it.

Mainly because you're being argumentative rather than providing helpful information from which all of us can learn.

See my next post. I just bypassed you.

Please in the future provide useful information that helps the forum learn.
 

ProShooter

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Fine, dont answer my question. Wont bother my steak dinner tonight one bit.

I did provide information to help the forum learn. You continued to argue with me thata crime was committed. Read up and you'll see the helpful information that was presented.

If the OP feels that a crime was committed, please feel free to seek a warrant. I'm not a lawyer, just a guy with 12 years of law enforcement experience. If you dont believe me, please do what you feel is correct.
 

Citizen

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OK, folks.

I had a brilliant idea. Why not call a magistrate?

So I did.

Here is the report. I personally attest this report is substantially accurate.

The magistratesaidthat in theory a person could apply for a warrant. Shethought it unlikely one would be granted.Whether a magistrate issues the warranthas to do with the severity of the situation arising from the false accusation. The magistrate said that if it went to trial and it was discovered that it was a false accusation, then a warrant might come into play.Generally, if no arrestbased on the false accusationoccurs,magistrates would not issuea warrant. I asked about this carefully, and the magistrate confirmed, its the importanceof the matter and the cut off point is whether an arrestoccursbased on the false accusation.

Its my understanding that magistrateshave some latitude. Also, I'm not sure how any given magistrate would treat the matter, nor how well the magistrate I spoke to understood the lay of the ground across the state.

But it was clear that themagistrate with who I spoke felt most magistrates would not issue a warrant under the circumstances discussed in this thread.

So, KendoBunny. Don't try for a warrant. Its not likely one would be issued.
 

peter nap

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Citizen wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
Let me ask you this...

If a false report crime was committed, why didnt the police act on that and arrest the manager right then and there?

No, I won't let you ask, or rather I won't pay attention to it.

Mainly because you're being argumentative rather than providing helpful information from which all of us can learn.

See my next post. I just bypassed you.

Please in the future provide useful information that helps the forum learn.

Come on Guys. Citizen, I was the one making smart ass comments. Please accept my apologies.

Proshooter was just telling it like he sees it, based on experience. I happen to agree with him. It wasn't a call to meet at high noon though.

If we start ignoring each other every time we disagree, no one will be speaking on Lobby day.
 
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