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Thread: My first "OMG A MAN WITH A GUN" call

  1. #1
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    So, the Noblesville police department comes knocking on my door this afternoon. I open the door, my Bersa Thunder .380 on my hip in a Fobus paddle holster, in plain view. 3 of them are standing there in a triangle spread formation. He starts to ask if I am carrying a gun, but doesn't even get the words out. He looks at my hip and says "yep, thats you" He proceeds to ask me a few questions. Do you always walk around with your gun exposed? Do you have a permit? Do you have ID? I happily provide my ID and permit. They call it in. They hand me back my ID and thank me for my time. It went very well. Hopefully they go to whoever called it in (new neighbors up the street) and explain that I was breaking no laws. The funny thing is, I was only in my driveway today cleaning my car! They called it in as "A man with a gun wandering the neighborhood"

    Side note, I found out my birthdate is wrong on my permit, so I gotta go get that fixed. Check your documents people!

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    Glad everything went well.

    Just a note when carrying a firearm on your property you are not required to have or do you have to present your LTCH if you have one. None is needed to carry on your property or on property you have permission from the owner to carry.

    Never had a run in with the police of any kind while OC'ing, but if it was in my yard I won't give them my LTCH. No need to and quite honestly if it's a anti-gun LEO they might try to confiscate it and then you have to work to get it back.

    Never give or volunteer anything you are not required by law to give. Also presents a second dilemma for me on my own property... do I had them my drivers license? State law says I must identify myself, not HOW I do so. Since I'm not operating a motor vehicle police cannot demand I present it. Depending on the situation I may just verbally identify myself.

    Are they pestering me for doing nothing more than carrying a firearm or are they looking for someone whose description I fit? If it's the latter I'll do everything I can to get my identity cleared up so they can move on and find the bad guy.... if it's because I'm grilling some steaks with a gun I'm not going to be Mr "extra cooperative"

    Upon pulling up they should have seen I wasn't doing anything wrong and kept on moving... should they decide to hassle me, I'll only do as required by law, nothing more.

  3. #3
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    Prometheus wrote:
    Glad everything went well.

    Just a note when carrying a firearm on your property you are not required to have or do you have to present your LTCH if you have one. None is needed to carry on your property or on property you have permission from the owner to carry.

    Never had a run in with the police of any kind while OC'ing, but if it was in my yard I won't give them my LTCH. No need to and quite honestly if it's a anti-gun LEO they might try to confiscate it and then you have to work to get it back.

    Never give or volunteer anything you are not required by law to give. Also presents a second dilemma for me on my own property... do I had them my drivers license? State law says I must identify myself, not HOW I do so. Since I'm not operating a motor vehicle police cannot demand I present it. Depending on the situation I may just verbally identify myself.

    Are they pestering me for doing nothing more than carrying a firearm or are they looking for someone whose description I fit? If it's the latter I'll do everything I can to get my identity cleared up so they can move on and find the bad guy.... if it's because I'm grilling some steaks with a gun I'm not going to be Mr "extra cooperative"

    Upon pulling up they should have seen I wasn't doing anything wrong and kept on moving... should they decide to hassle me, I'll only do as required by law, nothing more.
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.

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    stanicus wrote:
    Prometheus wrote:
    Glad everything went well.

    Just a note when carrying a firearm on your property you are not required to have or do you have to present your LTCH if you have one. None is needed to carry on your property or on property you have permission from the owner to carry.

    Never had a run in with the police of any kind while OC'ing, but if it was in my yard I won't give them my LTCH. No need to and quite honestly if it's a anti-gun LEO they might try to confiscate it and then you have to work to get it back.

    Never give or volunteer anything you are not required by law to give. Also presents a second dilemma for me on my own property... do I had them my drivers license? State law says I must identify myself, not HOW I do so. Since I'm not operating a motor vehicle police cannot demand I present it. Depending on the situation I may just verbally identify myself.

    Are they pestering me for doing nothing more than carrying a firearm or are they looking for someone whose description I fit? If it's the latter I'll do everything I can to get my identity cleared up so they can move on and find the bad guy.... if it's because I'm grilling some steaks with a gun I'm not going to be Mr "extra cooperative"

    Upon pulling up they should have seen I wasn't doing anything wrong and kept on moving... should they decide to hassle me, I'll only do as required by law, nothing more.
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
    You were in your home. You comitted no crime. You have no legal duty to show anything to them unless they have a warrant. That you decided to, 'to make things go smoother,' is your decision. And it probably did, but I would have asked why they were on your property. They then would have given you specifics on why and who brought them there. That would have been nice to know.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    I also live in Noblesville, so this is good information for me. Any comments from them about your choice to open carry? How would you rate their professionalism and what not?

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    They had no negative or positive comments regarding me open carrying. They just asked if I always walk around with my gun exposed. They were very professional regarding the whole thing. I think my cooperation helped with that. They showed me the same respect I was showing them.

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    In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

    real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.

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    stanicus wrote:
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
    Behaving in a calm, courteous and professional manner? Unpossible! The only way to deal with the police is to be as uncooperative as possible. That's how you gain acceptance and further your cause.

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    Mike wrote:
    In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

    real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
    IC 35-47-2-1
    Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
    Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.



    You can carry CC or OC without a license in your dwelling or on your property, or in your fixed place of business, so in stancus' circumstance, it was not necessarily appropriate for the LEO to request to see his LTCH.

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    OOOH...OOOOOH My police run online.



    Date
    Time
    Address
    Call Type
    Disposition
    Agency
    Inc No

    8/11/2008
    02:05 a.m.
    ****Searay Dr
    Service Call - Neighborhood Ck
    CHECKS OK
    Noblesville Police Department
    2008063965

    8/10/2008
    07:16 p.m.
    ****Searay Dr
    Weapons - Person Carrying
    CHECKS OK
    Noblesville Police Department
    200806****

    7/30/2008
    04:19 p.m.
    *****Searay Dr
    Suspicious - Solicitor
    CHECKS OK
    Noblesville Police Department
    2008060873

    7/27/2008
    09:08 p.m.
    ****Searay Dr
    Service Call - Neighborhood Ck
    DETAIL COMPLETE
    Noblesville Police Department
    2008060091


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    this is the kind of post that i was talking about in my first post on June 3-08 i don't see what the problem is showing someID if asked for it. it seems to me that by refusing to showID or LTCH just gives LE the opinion that we are carrying just to prove the point that we can,I carry to protect myself family and friends or strangers if required, not to rub it in the face of LE or the anti gun crowd that i can.comments from members such as Fog Rider just tend to inflame LE and turn them against lawful carrying and see us as a bunch of gun toting radicals out to give the a hard time. being uncooperative with LE is not the only way to deal with LEall that does is inflame the situation.it seems to me that stanicus did exactly the correct thing to end the incident as quick and easy as possible.

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    Crown Point OCer wrote:
    this is the kind of post that i was talking about in my first post on June 3-08 i don't see what the problem is showing someID if asked for it.
    If I (or any other random person) walked up to you and asked for ID or you LTCH would you produce it in that situation?

    Why not? Joe six pack has the same authority to ask for it as those cops did.

    One of the biggest reasons is to reduce "BHS" Big Head Syndrome. Unfortunately too many cops get too accustomed to hearing "yes'um! anything for you! I love you!" that they do develop BHS and when someone well within their Rights says "No" they freak out.

    How many of us have had a cop get offended or indignant over simply declining a search?

    Same principle... I have no idea if you also consent to searches as well to "speed things along" or to not "give a hard time", but men and women are dying everyday around the globe FOR US to defend OUR RIGHTS and I will not dishonor their sacrifices by giving up those Rights with pathetic and non needed compliance and butt kissing.

    Open carry . Org's motto is 'A Right unexercised is a Right lost". Same goes for providing "papers" with them having REAL and ACTUAL just cause.

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    Crown Point OCer wrote:
    this is the kind of post that i was talking about in my first post on June 3-08 i don't see what the problem is showing someID if asked for it. it seems to me that by refusing to showID or LTCH just gives LE the opinion that we are carrying just to prove the point that we can,I carry to protect myself family and friends or strangers if required, not to rub it in the face of LE or the anti gun crowd that i can.comments from members such as Fog Rider just tend to inflame LE and turn them against lawful carrying and see us as a bunch of gun toting radicals out to give the a hard time. being uncooperative with LE is not the only way to deal with LEall that does is inflame the situation.it seems to me that stanicus did exactly the correct thing to end the incident as quick and easy as possible.
    I understand your position. It comes from the social conditioning that we receive. A good citizen helps the police, the police are our friends. If you get lost, Little Johnny, find the nearest police officer.

    We are taught from a very early age that the police are our saviors.

    Now. You no longer are a child, or a minor. You are an adult. And as an adult, the rules, my friend, have changed.

    I present for your viewing pleasure: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02514885833865

    I am telling you, for your own good, when a police officer comes knocking on your door, it is NEVER a friendly visit. They are not there to be your friend, to help you get back to your mother. They are looking for criminal activity. They don't care how "good" of a person you are, how nice you are. They are looking to find criminal activity. Period.


    EDIT: I don't mean be a rude bastard. You should not be loud and obnoxious. But, at the same time, don't do more than you are required to do by law.

    Check out this thread for more detail: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/15174.html

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    If I (or any other random person) walked up to you and asked for ID or you LTCH would you produce it in that situation?

    Why not? Joe six pack has the same authority to ask for it as those cops did.

    One of the biggest reasons is to reduce "BHS" Big Head Syndrome. Unfortunately too many cops get too accustomed to hearing "yes'um! anything for you! I love you!" that they do develop BHS and when someone well within their Rights says "No" they freak out.

    How many of us have had a cop get offended or indignant over simply declining a search?

    Same principle... I have no idea if you also consent to searches as well to "speed things along" or to not "give a hard time", but men and women are dying everyday around the globe FOR US to defend OUR RIGHTS and I will not dishonor their sacrifices by giving up those Rights with pathetic and non needed compliance and butt kissing.

    Open carry . Org's motto is 'A Right unexercised is a Right lost". Same goes for providing "papers" with them having REAL and ACTUAL just cause.
    OTOH they did not make an issue of him retaining his weapon, if he had gone the route of telling them that he did not have to hand over his documents, they would likely have demanded to hold his weapon till the encounter was over.



    if the officers are treating me with courtesy, and respect, I will reciprocate. most officers are just trying to do there jobs, and rarely get a full picture of what prompted the 911 call.

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    Phoenixphire wrote:

    I understand your position. It comes from the social conditioning that we receive. A good citizen helps the police, the police are our friends. If you get lost, Little Johnny, find the nearest police officer.

    We are taught from a very early age that the police are our saviors.

    Now. You no longer are a child, or a minor. You are an adult. And as an adult, the rules, my friend, have changed.

    I present for your viewing pleasure: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02514885833865

    I am telling you, for your own good, when a police officer comes knocking on your door, it is NEVER a friendly visit. They are not there to be your friend, to help you get back to your mother. They are looking for criminal activity. They don't care how "good" of a person you are, how nice you are. They are looking to find criminal activity. Period.


    EDIT: I don't mean be a rude bastard. You should not be loud and obnoxious. But, at the same time, don't do more than you are required to do by law.

    Check out this thread for more detail: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/15174.html
    If I were to go into this situation with an attitude and refused to show my ID, the situation would have escalated. Right or wrong, I probably would have been lying on the ground getting tazed while screaming "AM I BEING DETAINED?" Sure you can go to the extreme of telling the cops to f@ck off and "I don't have to show you ID" or you can be one of the "Am I being detained" people. There really should be a place in between that is reasonable for all people involved. The law is hazy on if I was required to show my ID on my own property, but it did me no harm. Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver’s license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5. Now, that being said, I was committing no crime, but someone did call 911 and file a report, so it falls somewhere in the middle. Why can't there be some middle ground? Not all cops are bad and the enemy. Some of them enjoy their jobs and are actually doing it to make a difference. its not my job to make their job harder.

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    stanicus wrote:
    Phoenixphire wrote:
    SNIP
    If I were to go into this situation with an attitude and refused to show my ID, the situation would have escalated. Right or wrong, I probably would have been lying on the ground getting tazed while screaming "AM I BEING DETAINED?" Sure you can go to the extreme of telling the cops to f@ck off and "I don't have to show you ID" or you can be one of the "Am I being detained" people. There really should be a place in between that is reasonable for all people involved. The law is hazy on if I was required to show my ID on my own property, but it did me no harm. Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver’s license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5. Now, that being said, I was committing no crime, but someone did call 911 and file a report, so it falls somewhere in the middle. Why can't there be some middle ground? Not all cops are bad and the enemy. Some of them enjoy their jobs and are actually doing it to make a difference. its not my job to make their job harder.
    Well, I can tell by your response that:

    A) you did not watch the video.
    OR
    B) you did not fully understand the video.

    I know the Indiana Law on providing identification. This is only applicable in a "Terry" stop. They must have reasonable suspicion to perform a Terry stop. In this case, there was none.

    I am not saying what you did is "wrong".

    What I AM saying is that you opened yourself up to a threat, and did so unnecessarily.

    Also, at no point did I say you should tell the officer to go f- himself. Nowhere did I say that one should be rude, or make their day difficult. If you would have taken the time to read the referenced thread, you would have seen that I advocate the opposite.

    You should be respectful, polite, and silent.

    Doing anything else puts yourself at unnecessary risk.

    Watch the danged video. It might be the best investment of 30 minutes in your life.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02514885833865

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    Mike wrote:
    In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

    real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
    But not in your house or yard????
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    stanicus wrote:
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
    Ah, well good to know you are so cooperative. I'm sure that's in the record, makes it easier when they come for your guns.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    stanicus wrote:
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
    Ah, well good to know you are so cooperative. I'm sure that's in the record, makes it easier when they come for your guns.
    Paranoid much?

    Why is there no middle ground? Did I have to show him my ID? Maybe I didn't but when someone steals my lawnmower and I actually need to file a police report to get reimbursed from the insurance company. The police would remember whether the citizen with a gun or the @sshole with the gun lives there.

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    Venator wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

    real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
    But not in your house or yard????

    A 911 call was made. How do they know I really live there and am not holding someone hostage? If I said no and shut my door, they would have broken it down and tazed me. Sure they would have been in the wrong and I could have raised a big stink. Or i could act the way I did and things could go smooth. Hmmmmmm what seems a little less waste of my time? Which one would leave me with less urine stains on my pants and tazer burn marks on my shirt?

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    stanicus wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    stanicus wrote:
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
    Ah, well good to know you are so cooperative. I'm sure that's in the record, makes it easier when they come for your guns.
    Paranoid much?

    Why is there no middle ground? Did I have to show him my ID? Maybe I didn't but when someone steals my lawnmower and I actually need to file a police report to get reimbursed from the insurance company. The police would remember whether the citizen with a gun or the @sshole with the gun lives there.

    Now who's paranoid.

    Look do what you want, it's just that the police are going in a very dangerous direction in this county and the people are just letting them.

    This all hit home when I was looking for some clipart of LEO last month and instead of finding the kindly officer helping a small child or the image of an LEO helping out a motorist, the majority of the clipart was of officers in SWAT and military gear brandishing military arms. It just struck me as WOW when did this happen. It scares the S**t out of me. What is happening to this country? Just my observation. So I choose to stand up to authority, perhaps it's my age, but I remember better times. There....done bitching for a while.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    stanicus wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

    real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
    But not in your house or yard????

    A 911 call was made. How do they know I really live there and am not holding someone hostage? If I said no and shut my door, they would have broken it down and tazed me. Sure they would have been in the wrong and I could have raised a big stink. Or i could act the way I did and things could go smooth. Hmmmmmm what seems a little less waste of my time? Which one would leave me with less urine stains on my pants and tazer burn marks on my shirt?
    Of course all speculation. They would need probable cause or a warrant, but hey whatever you feel you had to do.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Stanicus...


    It isn't that wanting to be co-operative with others is a bad thing. And no one is say that all the people that wear the uniform are bad people out to get you.

    The concern is that many people submit over willingly to authority. Then, when that authority is used against THEM later, they wonder why.

    The shock on their face is always the same, as the situation becomes "I was always a good citizen, I don't commit crimes, etc." They are surprised that the individuals in power would use that power against THEM.

    Where the disconnect happens is people in power tend to not care about the ones they exercise the power over. Why should they? They are in power.

    It is much like an ant, just before you step on it, saying "Why me? I never bit you!" The ant is no threat to you, so why would you care? It is just an ant.

    Again, I am not saying that all police are this way, or even a majority are. But there is a significant number of people that go into law enforcement to gain authority, power. They are the ones who make things up, or try to enforce their own opinions as law.

    The point is: Be careful thinking of police as "your friend", who you want to help as much as you can. Just because you have been on "their side" multiple times before, doesn't mean they will reciprocate. They tolerate you. Irritate them, and they will turn on you.

    It sounds like a dark, gloomy way of viewing things. But the point is, if you don't act with caution, you might find yourself wishing you had just a bit more cynicism when it comes to those in authority.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
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    Jun 2008
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    Boy, this thread didn't go where I thought it would.

    Thanks to the OP for posting it. Shame on those who crapped in it.

    I'm with the "don't provide anything not asked" camp, but to be stand-offish with police officers... especially when you've got your ducks in a row... is just asking to be further inconvenienced.

    John

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfax County, Virginia
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    Venator wrote:
    stanicus wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    stanicus wrote:
    I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
    Ah, well good to know you are so cooperative.* I'm sure that's in the record, makes it easier when they come for your guns.
    Paranoid much?

    Why is there no middle ground? Did I have to show him my ID? Maybe I didn't but when someone steals my lawnmower and I actually need to file a police report to get reimbursed from the insurance company. The police would remember whether the citizen with a gun or the @sshole with the gun lives there.

    Now who's paranoid.*

    Look do what you want, it's just that the police are going in a very dangerous direction in this county and the people are just letting them.

    This all hit home when I was looking for some clipart of LEO last month and instead of finding the kindly officer helping a small child or the image of an LEO helping out a motorist, the majority of the clipart was of officers in SWAT and military gear brandishing military arms.* It just struck me as WOW when did this happen.* It scares the S**t out of me.* What is happening to this country?* Just my observation.* So I choose to stand up to authority, perhaps it's my age, but I remember better times.* There....done bitching for a while.
    It's not your age. I, for one, am more afraid of this than any other danger we, as Americans, face.

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