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My first "OMG A MAN WITH A GUN" call

stanicus

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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So, the Noblesville police department comes knocking on my door this afternoon. I open the door, my Bersa Thunder .380 on my hip in a Fobus paddle holster, in plain view. 3 of them are standing there in a triangle spread formation. He starts to ask if I am carrying a gun, but doesn't even get the words out. He looks at my hip and says "yep, thats you" He proceeds to ask me a few questions. Do you always walk around with your gun exposed? Do you have a permit? Do you have ID? I happily provide my ID and permit. They call it in. They hand me back my ID and thank me for my time. It went very well. Hopefully they go to whoever called it in (new neighbors up the street) and explain that I was breaking no laws. The funny thing is, I was only in my driveway today cleaning my car! They called it in as "A man with a gun wandering the neighborhood"

Side note, I found out my birthdate is wrong on my permit, so I gotta go get that fixed. Check your documents people!
 

Prometheus

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Nov 4, 2007
Messages
248
Location
NW Indiana, Indiana, USA
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Glad everything went well.

Just a note when carrying a firearm on your property you are not required to have or do you have to present your LTCH if you have one. None is needed to carry on your property or on property you have permission from the owner to carry.

Never had a run in with the police of any kind while OC'ing, but if it was in my yard I won't give them my LTCH. No need to and quite honestly if it's a anti-gun LEO they might try to confiscate it and then you have to work to get it back.

Never give or volunteer anything you are not required by law to give. Also presents a second dilemma for me on my own property... do I had them my drivers license? State law says I must identify myself, not HOW I do so. Since I'm not operating a motor vehicle police cannot demand I present it. Depending on the situation I may just verbally identify myself.

Are they pestering me for doing nothing more than carrying a firearm or are they looking for someone whose description I fit? If it's the latter I'll do everything I can to get my identity cleared up so they can move on and find the bad guy.... if it's because I'm grilling some steaks with a gun I'm not going to be Mr "extra cooperative"

Upon pulling up they should have seen I wasn't doing anything wrong and kept on moving... should they decide to hassle me, I'll only do as required by law, nothing more.
 

stanicus

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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Prometheus wrote:
Glad everything went well.

Just a note when carrying a firearm on your property you are not required to have or do you have to present your LTCH if you have one. None is needed to carry on your property or on property you have permission from the owner to carry.

Never had a run in with the police of any kind while OC'ing, but if it was in my yard I won't give them my LTCH. No need to and quite honestly if it's a anti-gun LEO they might try to confiscate it and then you have to work to get it back.

Never give or volunteer anything you are not required by law to give. Also presents a second dilemma for me on my own property... do I had them my drivers license? State law says I must identify myself, not HOW I do so. Since I'm not operating a motor vehicle police cannot demand I present it. Depending on the situation I may just verbally identify myself.

Are they pestering me for doing nothing more than carrying a firearm or are they looking for someone whose description I fit? If it's the latter I'll do everything I can to get my identity cleared up so they can move on and find the bad guy.... if it's because I'm grilling some steaks with a gun I'm not going to be Mr "extra cooperative"

Upon pulling up they should have seen I wasn't doing anything wrong and kept on moving... should they decide to hassle me, I'll only do as required by law, nothing more.
I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
 

Gunslinger

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Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
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stanicus wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
Glad everything went well.

Just a note when carrying a firearm on your property you are not required to have or do you have to present your LTCH if you have one. None is needed to carry on your property or on property you have permission from the owner to carry.

Never had a run in with the police of any kind while OC'ing, but if it was in my yard I won't give them my LTCH. No need to and quite honestly if it's a anti-gun LEO they might try to confiscate it and then you have to work to get it back.

Never give or volunteer anything you are not required by law to give. Also presents a second dilemma for me on my own property... do I had them my drivers license? State law says I must identify myself, not HOW I do so. Since I'm not operating a motor vehicle police cannot demand I present it. Depending on the situation I may just verbally identify myself.

Are they pestering me for doing nothing more than carrying a firearm or are they looking for someone whose description I fit? If it's the latter I'll do everything I can to get my identity cleared up so they can move on and find the bad guy.... if it's because I'm grilling some steaks with a gun I'm not going to be Mr "extra cooperative"

Upon pulling up they should have seen I wasn't doing anything wrong and kept on moving... should they decide to hassle me, I'll only do as required by law, nothing more.
I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
You were in your home. You comitted no crime. You have no legal duty to show anything to them unless they have a warrant. That you decided to, 'to make things go smoother,' is your decision. And it probably did, but I would have asked why they were on your property. They then would have given you specifics on why and who brought them there. That would have been nice to know.
 

indyguy

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Jul 7, 2008
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I also live in Noblesville, so this is good information for me. Any comments from them about your choice to open carry? How would you rate their professionalism and what not?
 

stanicus

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Mar 12, 2008
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Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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They had no negative or positive comments regarding me open carrying. They just asked if I always walk around with my gun exposed. They were very professional regarding the whole thing. I think my cooperation helped with that. They showed me the same respect I was showing them.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
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May 13, 2006
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Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
 

FogRider

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Joined
Jul 23, 2007
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1,412
Location
Centennial, Colorado, USA
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stanicus wrote:
I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
Behaving in a calm, courteous and professional manner? Unpossible! The only way to deal with the police is to be as uncooperative as possible. That's how you gain acceptance and further your cause.
 

Skippy

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Jul 7, 2007
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133
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Indianapolis, ,
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Mike wrote:
In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.



You can carry CC or OC without a license in your dwelling or on your property, or in your fixed place of business, so in stancus' circumstance, it was not necessarily appropriate for the LEO to request to see his LTCH.
 

stanicus

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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OOOH...OOOOOH My police run online.



Date
movedown.jpg

Time
Address
Call Type
Disposition
Agency
Inc No

8/11/2008
02:05 a.m.
****Searay Dr
Service Call - Neighborhood Ck
CHECKS OK
Noblesville Police Department
2008063965

8/10/2008
07:16 p.m.
****Searay Dr
Weapons - Person Carrying
CHECKS OK
Noblesville Police Department
200806****

7/30/2008
04:19 p.m.
*****Searay Dr
Suspicious - Solicitor
CHECKS OK
Noblesville Police Department
2008060873

7/27/2008
09:08 p.m.
****Searay Dr
Service Call - Neighborhood Ck
DETAIL COMPLETE
Noblesville Police Department
2008060091
 

Crown Point OCer

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Jun 3, 2008
Messages
6
Location
Crown Point, Indiana, USA
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this is the kind of post that i was talking about in my first post on June 3-08 i don't see what the problem is showing someID if asked for it. it seems to me that by refusing to showID or LTCH just gives LE the opinion that we are carrying just to prove the point that we can,I carry to protect myself family and friends or strangers if required, not to rub it in the face of LE or the anti gun crowd that i can.comments from members such as Fog Rider just tend to inflame LE and turn them against lawful carrying and see us as a bunch of gun toting radicals out to give the a hard time. being uncooperative with LE is not the only way to deal with LEall that does is inflame the situation.it seems to me that stanicus did exactly the correct thing to end the incident as quick and easy as possible.
 

Prometheus

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Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
248
Location
NW Indiana, Indiana, USA
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Crown Point OCer wrote:
this is the kind of post that i was talking about in my first post on June 3-08 i don't see what the problem is showing someID if asked for it.
If I (or any other random person) walked up to you and asked for ID or you LTCH would you produce it in that situation?

Why not? Joe six pack has the same authority to ask for it as those cops did.

One of the biggest reasons is to reduce "BHS" Big Head Syndrome. Unfortunately too many cops get too accustomed to hearing "yes'um! anything for you! I love you!" that they do develop BHS and when someone well within their Rights says "No" they freak out.

How many of us have had a cop get offended or indignant over simply declining a search?

Same principle... I have no idea if you also consent to searches as well to "speed things along" or to not "give a hard time", but men and women are dying everyday around the globe FOR US to defend OUR RIGHTS and I will not dishonor their sacrifices by giving up those Rights with pathetic and non needed compliance and butt kissing.

Open carry . Org's motto is 'A Right unexercised is a Right lost". Same goes for providing "papers" with them having REAL and ACTUAL just cause.
 

Phoenixphire

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
396
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
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Crown Point OCer wrote:
this is the kind of post that i was talking about in my first post on June 3-08 i don't see what the problem is showing someID if asked for it. it seems to me that by refusing to showID or LTCH just gives LE the opinion that we are carrying just to prove the point that we can,I carry to protect myself family and friends or strangers if required, not to rub it in the face of LE or the anti gun crowd that i can.comments from members such as Fog Rider just tend to inflame LE and turn them against lawful carrying and see us as a bunch of gun toting radicals out to give the a hard time. being uncooperative with LE is not the only way to deal with LEall that does is inflame the situation.it seems to me that stanicus did exactly the correct thing to end the incident as quick and easy as possible.

I understand your position. It comes from the social conditioning that we receive. A good citizen helps the police, the police are our friends. If you get lost, Little Johnny, find the nearest police officer.

We are taught from a very early age that the police are our saviors.

Now. You no longer are a child, or a minor. You are an adult. And as an adult, the rules, my friend, have changed.

I present for your viewing pleasure: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

I am telling you, for your own good, when a police officer comes knocking on your door, it is NEVER a friendly visit. They are not there to be your friend, to help you get back to your mother. They are looking for criminal activity. They don't care how "good" of a person you are, how nice you are. They are looking to find criminal activity. Period.


EDIT: I don't mean be a rude bastard. You should not be loud and obnoxious. But, at the same time, don't do more than you are required to do by law.

Check out this thread for more detail: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/15174.html
 

emclean

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Messages
10
Location
porter co., Indiana, USA
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If I (or any other random person) walked up to you and asked for ID or you LTCH would you produce it in that situation?

Why not? Joe six pack has the same authority to ask for it as those cops did.

One of the biggest reasons is to reduce "BHS" Big Head Syndrome. Unfortunately too many cops get too accustomed to hearing "yes'um! anything for you! I love you!" that they do develop BHS and when someone well within their Rights says "No" they freak out.

How many of us have had a cop get offended or indignant over simply declining a search?

Same principle... I have no idea if you also consent to searches as well to "speed things along" or to not "give a hard time", but men and women are dying everyday around the globe FOR US to defend OUR RIGHTS and I will not dishonor their sacrifices by giving up those Rights with pathetic and non needed compliance and butt kissing.

Open carry . Org's motto is 'A Right unexercised is a Right lost". Same goes for providing "papers" with them having REAL and ACTUAL just cause.
OTOH they did not make an issue of him retaining his weapon, if he had gone the route of telling them that he did not have to hand over his documents, they would likely have demanded to hold his weapon till the encounter was over.



if the officers are treating me with courtesy, and respect, I will reciprocate. most officers are just trying to do there jobs, and rarely get a full picture of what prompted the 911 call.
 

stanicus

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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Phoenixphire wrote:


I understand your position. It comes from the social conditioning that we receive. A good citizen helps the police, the police are our friends. If you get lost, Little Johnny, find the nearest police officer.

We are taught from a very early age that the police are our saviors.

Now. You no longer are a child, or a minor. You are an adult. And as an adult, the rules, my friend, have changed.

I present for your viewing pleasure: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

I am telling you, for your own good, when a police officer comes knocking on your door, it is NEVER a friendly visit. They are not there to be your friend, to help you get back to your mother. They are looking for criminal activity. They don't care how "good" of a person you are, how nice you are. They are looking to find criminal activity. Period.


EDIT: I don't mean be a rude bastard. You should not be loud and obnoxious. But, at the same time, don't do more than you are required to do by law.

Check out this thread for more detail: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/15174.html
If I were to go into this situation with an attitude and refused to show my ID, the situation would have escalated. Right or wrong, I probably would have been lying on the ground getting tazed while screaming "AM I BEING DETAINED?" Sure you can go to the extreme of telling the cops to f@ck off and "I don't have to show you ID" or you can be one of the "Am I being detained" people. There really should be a place in between that is reasonable for all people involved. The law is hazy on if I was required to show my ID on my own property, but it did me no harm. Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver’s license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5. Now, that being said, I was committing no crime, but someone did call 911 and file a report, so it falls somewhere in the middle. Why can't there be some middle ground? Not all cops are bad and the enemy. Some of them enjoy their jobs and are actually doing it to make a difference. its not my job to make their job harder.
 

Phoenixphire

Campaign Veteran
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Jun 10, 2008
Messages
396
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
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stanicus wrote:
Phoenixphire wrote:
If I were to go into this situation with an attitude and refused to show my ID, the situation would have escalated. Right or wrong, I probably would have been lying on the ground getting tazed while screaming "AM I BEING DETAINED?" Sure you can go to the extreme of telling the cops to f@ck off and "I don't have to show you ID" or you can be one of the "Am I being detained" people. There really should be a place in between that is reasonable for all people involved. The law is hazy on if I was required to show my ID on my own property, but it did me no harm. Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver’s license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5. Now, that being said, I was committing no crime, but someone did call 911 and file a report, so it falls somewhere in the middle. Why can't there be some middle ground? Not all cops are bad and the enemy. Some of them enjoy their jobs and are actually doing it to make a difference. its not my job to make their job harder.
Well, I can tell by your response that:

A) you did not watch the video.
OR
B) you did not fully understand the video.

I know the Indiana Law on providing identification. This is only applicable in a "Terry" stop. They must have reasonable suspicion to perform a Terry stop. In this case, there was none.

I am not saying what you did is "wrong".

What I AM saying is that you opened yourself up to a threat, and did so unnecessarily.

Also, at no point did I say you should tell the officer to go f- himself. Nowhere did I say that one should be rude, or make their day difficult. If you would have taken the time to read the referenced thread, you would have seen that I advocate the opposite.

You should be respectful, polite, and silent.

Doing anything else puts yourself at unnecessary risk.

Watch the danged video. It might be the best investment of 30 minutes in your life.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Mike wrote:
In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
But not in your house or yard????
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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stanicus wrote:
I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
Ah, well good to know you are so cooperative. I'm sure that's in the record, makes it easier when they come for your guns.
 

stanicus

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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Venator wrote:
stanicus wrote:
I know that its not required to hand over ID or LTCH, but I figure that it makes things go smoother. Although I wouldn't allow them to take my firearm, but I don't want to start anything with the cops. I was calm and professional and they were too. It made for a much easier event. I can't say that I agree with the "Am I being detained!" folks. Although its their right, it puts the LEO on edge and makes you seem confrontational.
Ah, well good to know you are so cooperative. I'm sure that's in the record, makes it easier when they come for your guns.

Paranoid much?

Why is there no middle ground? Did I have to show him my ID? Maybe I didn't but when someone steals my lawnmower and I actually need to file a police report to get reimbursed from the insurance company. The police would remember whether the citizen with a gun or the @sshole with the gun lives there.
 

stanicus

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Mar 12, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Noblesville, Indiana, USA
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Venator wrote:
Mike wrote:
In IN a permit is required to OC - so since the police were responding to a report of a man with a gun in public - kinda does make sense to show the pemit else they just might stake out your house till the next time you carry.

real problem here is that IN requires pemrit to OC.
But not in your house or yard????

A 911 call was made. How do they know I really live there and am not holding someone hostage? If I said no and shut my door, they would have broken it down and tazed me. Sure they would have been in the wrong and I could have raised a big stink. Or i could act the way I did and things could go smooth. Hmmmmmm what seems a little less waste of my time? Which one would leave me with less urine stains on my pants and tazer burn marks on my shirt?
 
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