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Thread: Unleashed Dogs

  1. #1
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    Friday night I was going for a walk just because the weather happened to be nice and it was good exercise. I was open carrying at the time. Here in Phoenix and in fact all of Arizona if I'm not mistaken has a leash law. At one point on the walk, I hear a bunch of dogs barking and a bunch of bushes moving but nothing unusual as people keep their dogs tied up all the time so the poor things get bored and have nothing to do other than bark and jump around. What tripped me out though was about two houses past the bushes moving, I hear feet running toward me and as I turn around I see three mid-sized dogs charging right toward me. I immediately pulled the gun out of the holster, quickly turned around and aimed the gun at the center dog. All three dogs immediately came to a stop and then turned around and went back to where they came from. I couldn't see who they actually belonged to. I told a couple of friends about it and they felt that drawing on the dogs was an appropriate action.

    While the dogs don't know what a gun is, they do recognize two things: one that you have a heavy object in your hand that you might hit them with and the fact that you confronted them putting them on the defensive. Instinctually the dogs realize that you are not an easy target as you demonstrated readiness for their attacks and a display of force sothe animals retreated and cancelled their attack. Another problem is if one of the dogs bites you, you have to do one of two things: either find the dog that bit you and have it tested for rabies or go get five rabies shots yourself. They recommended that if one of the dogs were to bite me to open fire on the dog that bit because it is not difficult to find and test a potentially rabid dog if it is dead on the ground in front of you. Second, dogs that go around biting people are public health and safety hazards and animal control will put them down. By drawing or shooting the gun, you are defending yourself against a potentially deadly threat and the owners are already in violation of leash laws. While I don't want to shoot an animal, I don't think I would get in any legal trouble. Animals that chase people do get impounded by animal control and the owners do get fined. Likewise, again, if a dog bites someone generally they get put down. I wish I could have found the owners because I would have had a nice little "chat" with them.

    I had another incident a couple of months back where a pit bull was barking at me in a threatening manner but never actually chased me but it was unleashed. About a year ago I remember a case a few houses down from where my mom lives the police and animal control impounded two pit bulls who had been consistently getting out and chasing people. The owners were fined and I remember seeing the police removing the snaps from their gun holsters "just in case." I really don't understand why there is so damn much stupidity in this world.



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    Well, if the dogs were rabid, you would have known... They will be "foaming at the mouth" similar to what you see on TV (but looks more like spit). Their coat will be a greenish tint and they will act like they were on speed. Also, the rabies shot is a 3 shot series and isn't all that bad. I had to get them for my work in animal control.

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    Most of the time dogs can be bluffed into retreating. Not all of them though. You shouldn't be too quick to shoot if one comes at you. My experience, so far, has been to square off with them and advance towards them (a snarly growl or firm tone of voice helps). I've chased dogs back into their own yards before.

    I did kill a dog once though, but not with a gun. I was walking down the street one day when a dog came running towards me from the other side. I already knew this dog wasn't friendly, which is why I was on the opposite side of the street from his yard. I sttod my ground, and just as he got in range I let go a drop kick that flipped him over. before he could get his legs under him, I jumped up and planted both of my cowboy boot heels square in his rib cage. Then I stepped back to see if he was going to get up and try again. That's when I heard somebody say, "Are you alright sir? Did he bite you?" It was a LEO that just happened to be coming down the street behind me and saw the whole thing. I told him no that I was ok. About that time is when we heard this shrill womans voice scream, "Arrest that man! He killed my dog!" The LEO said NO WAY! I had acted in self defense. The dog picked the fight and lost. The officer took my name for his report and told me I could go. Then he sited the city ordinance on keeping dogs contained and confined within the city, to the woman. I think she got a citation.

    I like dogs, and will use the "Alpha" position on them when I can to avoid a confrontation, but if they press a fight, I don't take prisoners.

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    This type of irresponsibility that so many people have with their dogs is downright ridiculous. As much as I like animals, I don't believe that in a civilized society we need dangerous animals chasing people and secondly that any animal that goes around biting people needs to be put down. Some of these dogs are quite lethal. I'd rather not wait until a pit bull takes a bite out of my neck and severs my juglar vein before stopping the threat. As much as I don't want to shoot or even draw a gun in a residential neighborhood and have to be part of an "investigation" if less people put up with this crap, it would decline. If the dog owners had seen me pullmy pistol on their dogs, they may have thought twice about letting them run around. Likewise, these people who think their pit bulls are little angels may get some sense in their heads when they find their dog dead withten gunshot wounds. As far as I'm concerned if any dog that I feel is dangerous is chasing me and does not retreat when I draw (and I will always draw), it will be a dead dog. Not to mention that these stupid owners who let their pets get out create other potential problems such as traffic hazards. How many times have I been driving and a damn dog is standing in the middle of a busy intersection confused and stopping traffic. They can cause accidents because people are trying to avoid them. There is a law in Arizona allowing the use of firearms to "control nuissance wildlife." As far as I'm concerned dogs that run around in public streets unleashed and out of control are "animal control" issues and shooting every one of them might bethe solution. I'm tired of hearing on the news about some elderly person or child being mauled by these things. I WILL take care of it if need be.



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    protector84 wrote:
    . I WILL take care of it if need be.

    Amen to that. Animals are just what they are. Animals. If they are causing problems, get rid of 'em. If owners can't handle the responsibility of owning one, they shouldn't

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    One of the reasons I don't want to kill animals is because animals are not expected to know any better. A human is expected to know right from wrong but an animal is just an animal. However, it is expected to occasionally run into a dangerous animal in the wilderness such as a bear. You shouldn't have the same concern about safety from animals in a city of "civilized" people that you would in the forest which is actually a habitat for four-legged and other creatures. Nobody would tolerate bears coming inside grocery stores and bothering customers yet for some reason people think it is ok to bring their dogs everywhere and then let them get loose, bite someone, and potentially even kill someone.



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    protector84:

    I have two large dogs, a black lab / Rott cross and a yellow Lab / Pit cross, that appear unleashed when they are in my front yard. I have an electronic fence system that keeps them in the yard. (they are so used to it that ifI take their shock collars off and put their harnesses and leashes on they will not even walk out of the perimeter. We have to drive them off property to walk them) Their perimeter goes to within 1 foot of the road edge, and they will bark and charge the line at anything with wheels, and other dogs. Whenever I get asked if they bite, I only respond that they cannot leave the yard. I like the fact that the teens that ride by think that they are scary and have no idea where thay can and cannot go. They are my first line of defense.

    To get to my point, of course be aware of large dogs, but if they do not leave their property and you do not enter their property, a barking dog is not a threat. Generally speaking a barking dog is not usually a threat unless you corner it. Dogs that don't bark are the threat.



    respectfully,

    Pol

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    The dogs that bark constantly at midnight are a pain and I'M the threat

    (or the owners who let them bark all night every night are the pain)

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    I feel you there, XD. Mine are inside at night. hell, they have us well trained: they go in and out at their leisure. :P

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    Our dog is inside as well and is well trained - all I have to do is look at her when she starts barking and she will look at me and back away.

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    Honestly, I will do everything, include getting bit, before firing at a dog. For me to get to the point of no return, my arm had better be getting ripped off. I have to think "what would I want someone else to do if this were my dog." If a dog has a bite on you and is still holding, cover his snout, hit his snout, or go for the eyes. If at that point nothing is working, you may be in trouble. Just how I think of it as...

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    I agree with Bill, You do need to know something about dogs before you start shooting. The one that came after me did not bark at all. He began to snarl at about 10 feet away and was coming on at a dead run. If a dog wants a piece of you it ain't gonna warn you he's coming by barking.

    I look for the tail. if it's wagging when they're barking you shouldn't be concerned. I watch for the other signs Bill mentioned too.

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    I've been bitten twice by dogs, both timesas a kid. The first was when I was about 8. I was riding my bike in the neighborhood, when a neighbor's dog charged me, bit me in the leg with no provocation, then ran away! It was usually kept in the backyard along an alley and we found outkids would tease it through the fence walking to and from school. It got loose, and attacked the first kid it saw.

    The second time I was about 12 and stupidly jumped the neighbor's fence to get my ball that bounced over it. I forgot about the dog. It got me in the butt as I was trying to scramble back over the fence.

    I learned at a young age that if you stand completely still, most dogs won't bite. I've been charged at by a few dozen dogs throughout my life (many on private property - I was a delivery guy for awhile), and I could "tell" they weren't going to bite. They slowed their charge at a certain distance, and came up to say "hi" and sniff me.

    Only once as an adult did I have a dog charge me to really attack (at least I was sure of it), and I was with my kids riding bicycles at the time. This was on a bike path that runs behind several houses, with pretty much an open field between the backyards and the bike path. The dog flew out of the neighbor's yard at top speed directly at us barking and snarling. I told the kids "quick, off the bikes!" and told them to stand very still and keep the bike between them and the dog. I'm not sure what kind of a dog it was, it was a pretty big mutt, (60-80 lbs), no recognizable breed. I got between the dog and the kids with my bike and the dog stopped at about10 feet, ears down,growling and snarling while I yelled for the owner repeatedly. Nobody ever came out of the house, and after a minute, I told the kids to start walking SLOWLY keeping the bikes between the dog and us. It stood there growling and barking and didn't follow, then eventually it went back to its yard. I called the city police to report it when I got home, no idea if anything happened after that.

    Had I been carrying at that time, I know I would have drawn on the dog, but would not have shot unless it tried charging me through the bicycle.I know I would have been a lot more confident and felt more secure if I had been armed, and I'm sure dogs can sense that. As it was, I felt and acted calm but I was scared at the same time that the dog was going to attack and I had nothing but hands, feet, and bicycle to protect us.

    Note that I'm not sure how much actual growling and snarling and barking was going on, this was 5 years ago, so I can't remember the exact details. I do not believe for a second this dog was just running to greet us.This dog was charging full bore and hell bent to attack, and I honestly believe if we didn't have bikes to put between usor if we tried to run, we would have gotten bitten.

    I'm willing to give a dog the benefit of the doubt that it's not going to attack, and I'm not going to jump to conclusions just because a dog is running at me. However, if I believe it's intending to attack, I'm not going to wait until the thing is chomping on my leg (or one of my kids) before shooting it, either. Especially if I'm on public property and the owner doesn't have sense or take the responsibility seriously to control their animal.

    Pol Mordreth's telling about his electronic fence reminded me of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pvZWIY_SZE

    ...Now, witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational invisible doggie fence!...
    ...Orygunner...



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    Bill in VA wrote:
    SNIP - good dog info
    +1

    Orygunner: That Emperor gets a job clip was great!
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    I will reiterate some of my points in light of some recent responses. First, I have a right to walk down a public street without being threatened. At least in Arizona, dog owners are required by law to keep their dogs on leashes or otherwise restrained from the general public. In addition, there are noise ordinances prohibiting people disturbing the peace whether it is by playing the music too loud or by allowing their dogs to bark endlessly throughout the night. When you have children or pets, you are responsible for them. It appears that a couple of the statements here reveal a tad bit of arrogancy on the part of dog owners. I have nothing against dogs but I do believe that in a civilized society people have the right to travel down public roads without being threatened by potentially dangerous animals who are not under control. Likewise, people have the right to peace and quiet and there is no excuse for dogs to be barking at night waking people up just because someone is walking by. That person has a right by law to walk down the street. It is not a right to allow a dog to bark to the point where it is a noise disturbance.

    I don't want to shoot animals or people for that matter but if I feel threatened with deadly force as a reasonable person would in the eyes of the law, I do have the right to draw and fire if necessary to preserve my safety and the safety of others. It is hard to say what I would do in every situation because every situation is different. I do believe in making an effort to retreat in any self-defense situation. If dogs are unleashed on someone's property and they are making me nervous, I will cross to the other side of the street. Before firing on a dog that is already advancing toward me in the street, I will likely already be yelling at the dog while slowly backing up. As said earlier, however, dogs that go around biting people are not pets but animal control problems and need to be put down. If a dog bites me in a public street, I will shoot it and call animal control. Yes, that is sad if the family misses the dog and if the child loved it but the owner should have thought about that before neglecting responsibility. Dogs do not have the right to chase people on the streets and definitely cannot go around biting. If I have legitimately retreated, have not been bitten, but am afraid for my life due to a potentially vicious dog still advancing, I will shoot it and call animal control. As to the person who said that he likes how his dogs scare teens walking down the street, at least here in Arizona that is breaking the law. Those teens have a right to walk down the street without being threatened. They don't know if there is a fence or not and the unleashed dogs that are jumping and barking at them are disturbing the peace. If I see that, I will call animal control and even with the fence, it is still a disturbance to the peace because I cannot walk down the street.

    Again, take responsibility for your actions. If you cannot control your kids, pets, whoever, don't have them.



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    Lookout, Bill in VA! Someone shoots your dog, you shoot them, next thing you know, the Hatfields & McCoys are at it again.

    Seriously, I can understand being upset if someone shot your dog, but if your dog was actually attacking someone in public, and they shot your dog in self-defense, would you still retaliate?

    This does raise an ethical question. The chances of dying from a dog bite are extremely slim, especially if you're an average adult and there's only one dog. Is it really justified to use deadly force against an attacking dog?

    Note I said attacking. Not just charging, or running to greet, or even nipping a little. If a person believes the dog is truly attacking them, or if an attack actually starts (it bites the person), are they justified to use deadly force?

    Personally, I don't care how much Fluffy (or Bruno) is loved by his family, if he's intent on biting me and I have no other way to avoid him, his life is not worth my unpreforated skin. Whether I shoot or give a well-placed kick, the dog's life is not my concern at that point. The dog's family should have thought about that before being careless to let him off his leash.

    Oh, and I don't think we have a right to be safe, or a right to peace and quiet any more than we have a right to be happy. We do have the right to take whatever steps to pursue those ends, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others.

    ...Orygunner...

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    Bill in VA wrote: (snip)
    As far as "rights" show me where in the US Consitution you have a right to go anywhere. Your "right" to walk down the street and to have a quiet nightis the same "right" that dog owners have.You seem to have a hard time understanding what "rights" are. You do not have a "right" to walk down the street, nor do you have a "right" to a quiet, bark-free night.If it troubles you that much, buy a set of ear plugs. You have that "right" too.
    Doesn't this fall under the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

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    If my dog gets loose and attacks someone and is seriously hurt or killed, I will be heartbroken about the situation on many levels.

    If my dog is not and does not hurt anyone and they seriously hurt or kill my dog, I hope they have made their peace with their maker because that is their next stop regardless of the means I have handy.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Bill in VA wrote:
    Protector84, if you've got something to say to me about being a dog owner, say it. Don't bandy words.

    As far as "rights" show me where in the US Consitution you have a right to go anywhere. Your "right" to walk down the street and to have a quiet nightis the same "right" that dog owners have.You seem to have a hard time understanding what "rights" are. You do not have a "right" to walk down the street, nor do you have a "right" to a quiet, bark-free night.If it troubles you that much, buy a set of ear plugs. You have that "right" too.

    Barking dogs? Yes, dogs bark. Children scream and and holler when they play. Children ocassionally run off of their parents' property just like dogs run off of their masters' property. There's even less excuse for poorly-behaved children because you at least reason with them. Ever try to reason with an animal? Did you ever consider that perhaps a dog's barking is not just a greeting, but also a way to warn his master? I encourage my dogs to bark when they hear the doorbell, someone's in the yard, etc...

    You'd also do well consider your comments about being threatened with deadly force by a dog versus your "right" to draw and shoot. There are thousands of dog bites per year, but damned few deaths attributed to dog bites. Based on that logic, it would appear a dog bite is not a threat of "deadly force." I don't know you, but you strike me as some kid with a holster on his hip and a chip on his shoulder and waaaay too much testosterone. One final hint for you about canine behavior, run away from a dog and he will chase you.

    That said, should anybody shoot my dog in a public street, I will shoot back. No threat, just a promise.
    I think you're way off base here....That's why virtually all municipalities have ordinances in effect to cover this. If your dog is coninuously barking after a certain hour you "usually" are in violation of some sort of law. You're attitude seems to me to be "screw everyone else, it's my dog and he'll bark if he wants to". That's not the approach I think anyone should take... It's about respect for others, I am a dog owner and if my dog is continuously barking even during the day I say something to him. If it's at night he comes in immediately... Just common courtesy. Not trying to ruffle feathers, JMHO.

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    Protector84, if you've got something to say to me about being a dog owner, say it. Don't bandy words.

    As far as "rights" show me where in the US Consitution you have a right to go anywhere. Your "right" to walk down the street and to have a quiet nightis the same "right" that dog owners have.You seem to have a hard time understanding what "rights" are. You do not have a "right" to walk down the street, nor do you have a "right" to a quiet, bark-free night.If it troubles you that much, buy a set of ear plugs. You have that "right" too.
    Bill, I'm afraid you seem quite out of line here. Maybe there isn't anything in the U.S. Constitution that specifically says a right to walk down a street in peace and quiet but there are other laws that protect that right. Perhaps every state, county, and municipality is different but the truth is in most areas of the country, people do have a legal right to reasonable safety when moving from point A to point B and people do have the legal right to reasonable peace and quiet. Like I said, here in Arizona, you are violating the law if your dogs are in the public street unleashed, if they bite people, if they bark or threaten in a way that disturbs the peace. I have witnessed animal control ticketing a neighbor for consistently letting his dogs get out. A neighbor went for a walk every morning for exercise and consistently the other neighbor's dogs kept getting out and threatening him. He reported it to the police once and I guess at that point nothing had happened. One morning the dogs got out and one of them bit him. He called the cops, they issued citations to the owners and both dogs were impounded and I don't believe they were ever returned. It may be of your opinion that you and your dogs are God and can do whatever you want and screw everyone else, but that is not true in the eyes of the law.

    I will say again, that it is a right by law here in Phoenix to walk down any public street any day or night for whatever reason. There is no curfew here for adults, you do not have to show your papers, or have a valid reason to be on any public road at any time. The same is not true about dogs unleashed, threatening people, and disturbing the peace.


    Barking dogs? Yes, dogs bark. Children scream and and holler when they play. Children ocassionally run off of their parents' property just like dogs run off of their masters' property. There's even less excuse for poorly-behaved children because you at least reason with them. Ever try to reason with an animal? Did you ever consider that perhaps a dog's barking is not just a greeting, but also a way to warn his master? I encourage my dogs to bark when they hear the doorbell, someone's in the yard, etc...
    You are missing the point. I don't care about dogs barking a little bit or children screaming a little bit. If it is midnight and kids or dogs are making excessive noise for prolonged periods of time, that is illegal according to city ordinance and police will issue citations. Likewise, it is at least a city ordinance if not a state law that dogs be kept under control. If kids or dogs accidently get out, that is the risk you as a parent or owner run but the law stays the same. If a kid "accidently" falls in the swimming pool and drowns, you are going to prison for criminal negligence. The same applies if your dog gets out and mauls someone to death. You will go to prison.
    You'd also do well consider your comments about being threatened with deadly force by a dog versus your "right" to draw and shoot. There are thousands of dog bites per year, but damned few deaths attributed to dog bites. Based on that logic, it would appear a dog bite is not a threat of "deadly force." I don't know you, but you strike me as some kid with a holster on his hip and a chip on his shoulder and waaaay too much testosterone. One final hint for you about canine behavior, run away from a dog and he will chase you.
    Your personal attacks against me are inappropriate and against the rules of the forum and if they continue, I am reporting you to the moderator.


    That said, should anybody shoot my dog in a public street, I will shoot back. No threat, just a promise.
    I take all such threats very seriously and if you don't retract your statement, I will report you to the police.



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    protector84 wrote:
    SNIP Maybe there isn't anything in the U.S. Constitution that specifically says a right to walk down a street in peace and quiet ...
    9th Amendment:

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I think that there are some here that are looking for any excuse to kill a dog. IMHO, many of the stories posted here show that some immediately draw their weapons if they feel intimidated by the dog and prior to any real attack.

    Someone shot and killed my dog while he was in my fenced-in yard. While he was a very large Sarplaninac, he was not a threat to anyone.

    Use the same amount of discretion in drawing on a dog as you would with a human being. Anything less is criminal.
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