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Thread: ARIZONA: CAUTION RE: BG BODYARMOR

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    Those in the Valley area should take note of the increasing appearance of BG in Body Armor!

    This is being downplayed in the media for obvious reasons. Recently there have been a rash of apparently unrelated Home Invaisons, however, the common factor is the use of body armor.

    A WORD TO THE WISE MY, TWO TO THE CHEST, ONE TO THE HEAD, FRIENDS.

    ALEC 411



    P.S. Forewarned is Forearmed!

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    I saw that mentioned in a story today.

    http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=930152

    Homeowner wounded in shootout, invader killed
    August 11th, 2008 @ 8:07am
    by Jim Cross/KTAR


    An alleged home invader was killed and a homeowner left fighting for his life after a shootout at a west Valley home Sunday night.

    The homeowner, whose name was not released, shot and killed one of the suspects, but he also was shot and was taken to the hospital with a collapsed lung.

    ----

    Neighbors said the suspects were wearing full body armor and armed with AK-47 assault rifles. Police have not confirmed that.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Get nailed dead center with a .45acp 'n you're gonna go someplace other than the direction you intended. BO or not. 2nd shot will be somewhere other than center of mass... if I'm doin' the shootin'.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Get nailed dead center with a .45acp 'n you're gonna go someplace other than the direction you intended. BO or not. 2nd shot will be somewhere other than center of mass... if I'm doin' the shootin'.
    It's kindaa scary how much faith you have in a handgun round. Hope you never have to find out first hand that the .45 is not the wonderbullet you think it is. In fact, amongst all of the major service calibers there's not as much of a differene as there was just 15 years ago. Against BO give me a long gun any day.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Dahwg wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Get nailed dead center with a .45acp 'n you're gonna go someplace other than the direction you intended. BO or not. 2nd shot will be somewhere other than center of mass... if I'm doin' the shootin'.
    It's kindaa scary how much faith you have in a handgun round. Hope you never have to find out first hand that the .45 is not the wonderbullet you think it is. In fact, amongst all of the major service calibers there's not as much of a differene as there was just 15 years ago. Against BO give me a long gun any day.
    'Got those too... but 1200 ppsi point of impact is gonna get somebody's attention. I don't normally OC the AK or the AR... any of the 12 ga shotguns or the .30-30... so I gotta go with what I have in hand.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Dahwg wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Get nailed dead center with a .45acp 'n you're gonna go someplace other than the direction you intended. BO or not. 2nd shot will be somewhere other than center of mass... if I'm doin' the shootin'.
    It's kindaa scary how much faith you have in a handgun round. Hope you never have to find out first hand that the .45 is not the wonderbullet you think it is. In fact, amongst all of the major service calibers there's not as much of a differene as there was just 15 years ago. Against BO give me a long gun any day.
    'Got those too... but 1200 ppsi point of impact is gonna get somebody's attention. I don't normally OC the AK or the AR... any of the 12 ga shotguns or the .30-30... so I gotta go with what I have in hand.
    For anyone that thinks their wonder bullet is gonna knock somebody on their ass, I encourage you to watch the following video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Impressive... I gotta practice my head shots. :shock:

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Get nailed dead center with a .45acp 'n you're gonna go someplace other than the direction you intended. BO or not. 2nd shot will be somewhere other than center of mass... if I'm doin' the shootin'.
    Someone subscribes to the theory of knockback. Did it ever occur to you that if your bullet was powerful enough to throw a BG to the ground, according to Newton you'd be doing the same?

    The energy of the fabled "manstopper" is in reality comparable to being hit by a baseball pitch;that may hurt, but it's not going to knock you to the ground unless it beans you in the head and knocks you cold. With body armor, that analogy becomes very close to reality; a vest hit will bruise, but it's not going to knock you back or down.

    BGs with body armor is big. If they're armored and you're not, and they come into your home, they will have shot you somewherecritical before you realize you need a headshot.

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    Sorry to let physics rain on your parade, but even your 12 or 10 gauge won't knock anyone over. If it has enough power to knock the BG over, then it's going to knock you over too. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

    But this may be the motivation I need to get some steel core 7.62 AP rounds.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    "He who defends against all defends nothing": Sun Tzu Realistically... that's spray 'n pray time. I don't forsee that event... but sombody will know they've been inna gunfight most likely.

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    Quite scary.

    Any information as to what type of body armor? It makes HUGE difference. Some of that stuff isn't really safe against anything greater than a .380, while the very top end stuff can stop a 30.06 at close range (I'm guessing these are out of the price range of a typical criminal,and many mid-sized cities). There are others that are in-between, obviously.

    It takes a really top of the line vest to stop a rifle bullet, and at least a mid grade to seriously slow down a .45 or a 12 gauge slug. Body armor isn't a panacea, regardless of what you see on TV cop shows.

    If I hit a threat with my 12 gauge and he doesn't stop, you can bet the next round is going to be a little bit higher.

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    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    If I hit a threat with my 12 gauge and he doesn't stop, you can bet the next round is going to be a little bit higher.




    Assuming you are still able to shoot.

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    I wonder if this Phoenix-area home invasion was also the work of illegal alien drug thugs. Several lately have been either currant or former Mex military, armed with auto and semi auto weapons, body armor, and even LE style tactical gear (and "Phoenix PD" raid t-shirts.



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    1FASTC4 wrote:
    Slayer of Paper wrote:
    If I hit a threat with my 12 gauge and he doesn't stop, you can bet the next round is going to be a little bit higher.




    Assuming you are still able to shoot.
    That's very true. There are no guarantees in life. All I can do is prepare the best I can, and be armed at all times. A certain part of it will always be luck. But you know what they say about luck and preparedness.

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    AZKOPPER

    That was my first thought. Some have had military ID cards. Betweeb us & the birds, they wear the vests exposed. Will tell you STAT that you need a head shot. dey dumb but deadly!

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    I have always said that you should never rely on a one-size-fits-all approach. Every threat is different and each threat will come with different tactics against you and you have to quickly come up with better tactics to beat the threat. Most defense proponents insist on using hollow points in handguns, buckshot in shotguns, and avoiding rifles altogether for self-defense. While this may make sense in most situations, it never hurts to have multiple types of guns with multiple types of ammo for various purposes. If someone has body armor, I would recommend attacking with full metal jackets if using a handgun and slugs if using a shotgun. That would also be a good time to quickly clean the dust off of the old hunting rifle and bring that into action. Another strategy may be to use a battle rifle such as an AK-47. You may still have trouble penetrating the armor but if you can fire dozens and even hundreds of rounds in a short amount of time, you stand a chance of survival. Chances are the longer you hold off the attackers, the less likely they will stay in the fight but you never know. Tasers or pepperspray may actually come in handy in such a case. In most cases preventative techniques will avoid these problems. If you have good locks on your doors and windows, you at least buy time before they actually get in which gives you time to formulate a plan. Also, I wouldn't hang out with the wrong crowd or flash valuables around. It seems fairly unlikely that attackers are going to go to this length to break into your home unless they already know there is something there that is worth stealing.



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    I work in the public safety ind. After talking to some friends of mine that are MCSO, they said if a cop comes to your door, or some one who says they are a cop you have the right to call 9-1-1 and verify. A badge means nothing now adays. All I have is a P-85 9 MM but with the 2, 16 round clips i have loaded at all times im hoping that it will stop some one. Besides I live near apache junction, and tweekers arent very smart any ways.

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    I think protector84 is starting to get to the heart of the matter. It doesn't matter what kind of firearms you have if enough people with enough armor come through your doors and windows.

    The best way to beat those odds is not to play. Don't buy drugs, don't sell drugs, don't associate with druggies, don't get involved with illegal immigrant smuggling, etc. Basically, don't make yourself a target and your odds go way down. Nearly every one of these crimes I read about in the valley involves either drugs or illegal alien smuggling.

    Next is physical security. How accessible is your house and yard? How long would it take a determined attacker to get in (or you to get out)? I feel like I'm prepared to deal with the random crime of a tweaker breaking in. If someone pulls a stunt like those fake bounty hunters in the 90's, or the recent Mexican Army breakins, I'm toast.

    You know what? I'm ok with those odds. I work in Iraq, and I ride motorcycles and skydive when I'm home in AZ. I think a home invasion by a gang of body-armored thugs is pretty low on the list of ways I'm likely to die.

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    mzbk2l wrote:
    I think protector84 is starting to get to the heart of the matter. It doesn't matter what kind of firearms you have if enough people with enough armor come through your doors and windows.

    The best way to beat those odds is not to play. Don't buy drugs, don't sell drugs, don't associate with druggies, don't get involved with illegal immigrant smuggling, etc. Basically, don't make yourself a target and your odds go way down. Nearly every one of these crimes I read about in the valley involves either drugs or illegal alien smuggling.

    Next is physical security. How accessible is your house and yard? How long would it take a determined attacker to get in (or you to get out)? I feel like I'm prepared to deal with the random crime of a tweaker breaking in. If someone pulls a stunt like those fake bounty hunters in the 90's, or the recent Mexican Army breakins, I'm toast.

    You know what? I'm ok with those odds. I work in Iraq, and I ride motorcycles and skydive when I'm home in AZ. I think a home invasion by a gang of body-armored thugs is pretty low on the list of ways I'm likely to die.
    Yeah I see what you mean. I stand on the side of freeways and pull people out of car wrecks, and hang around burning buildings. **** happens. Ill deal with that when I cross that bridge.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    If it ever comes to a shoot-out with guys carryin' AK's... I think discretion is the better part of valor in that scenario. I have an AK and an AR... but a stand-off in the face of that is nuts. I forsee no combat type op's on my pos for any reason, nor would I welcome such. BTDT 40 years ago or so. This is a house... not a bunker. 'Sheriff's 3 miles away.

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    REBEL:

    Spent three tours in Nam. If it came right down to it I'd be good for one more firefight. Mine would not be the only funeral! May none of us have to face it!

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Alec411 wrote:
    REBEL:

    Spent three tours in Nam. If it came right down to it I'd be good for one more firefight. Mine would not be the only funeral! May none of us have to face it!
    I did two... ('65 and '71-72)... but I ain't in my 20's anymore. Push come to shove... I'd fight, but I'm not the only person here to look out for.

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    In any extreme situation like this where you are not capable of fighting back, evacuation may be a better option. Just as one should have a fire plan in mind on how to get out, the same applies for this situation. I certainly believe in defending one's property but if your chances of surviving are far greater by running out the back door than by engaging in full combat with the criminals, you might want to flee and hope the cops can deal with it and actually get there in a timely manner. Not to mention that a shootout at such a scale inside your own home will probably result in property damage to alevel that is no longer worth protecting.



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    A householder has already given up freedom of motion in defending his home. Sieges did not often fail.

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    What kind of body armor are we talking about? Kevlar, or thick steel plates?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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