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Thread: VA-ALERT: VCDL Update 8/13/08

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    VA-ALERT: VCDL Update 8/13/08

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Philip Van Cleave
    Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:03 PM
    Subject: VA-ALERT: VCDL Update 8/13/08

    VCDL Update 8/13/08 - "Defending your right to defend yourself"

    1. Dan Moore's false arrest case in Norfolk resolved
    2. Shooting on Virginia Tech Campus
    3. VCDL has three new Executive Members
    4. Government vs. private property: it matters
    5. Officials at conference: campus lockdown not possible
    6. LTE: Member refutes restaurant carry ban
    7. Yes: renewing 180-90 days ahead of expiry is the law
    8. Culpeper Police Chief wants to ban shooting
    9. LTE -- pretty smart 8th grader
    10. Going After Crimes -- and Guns -- in Richmond
    11. Capital Gun Owners organization formed
    12. House Democrats Seek Less-Rigid D.C. Gun Laws
    13. In Connecticut we'll take your gun, just in case
    14. McCain seems to propose martial law for US
    15. Student Group Lobbying for Legislation to Allow Concealed Firearms
    on College Campuses
    16. Chicago still trying to circumvent 2nd Amendment
    17. New VCDL Gun Show Coordinators
    18. Gun shows and events! Norfolk show needs volunteers!

    1. Dan Moore's false arrest case in Norfolk resolved

    Mr. Moore was arrested in Norfolk last year because of profiling. The
    Pilot Online article <> has some background
    on the case. He recently notified us about the resolution of the
    case. The principle of rule of law that is the cornerstone of our
    Democracy and way of life, was vindicated here.
    (The link includes an image of the letter from Chief Marquis)

    Mr. Moore writes:

    "After a little over a year, the Norfolk case is finished. I am very
    happy to announce that Norfolk has awarded me with an undisclosed
    amount plus an apology letter from the Chief of Police.

    I would like to thank all of you who have supported me and guided me
    with your knowledge and wisdom.

    I have learned that instances like these must be handled wisely. You
    must put yourself in the best legal position as you cannot challenge
    authority at that moment. I have read Citizen's suggestions and I
    concur. His plan of action when dealing with such instances requires
    a calm mind and much knowledge of the law.

    I started carrying about 2 years ago and I've never even imagined such
    events ever occurring. But thanks to this website and the wonderful
    folks that mod it, and the awesome people that post, it makes things

    2. Shooting on Virginia Tech Campus

    How can this be? Virginia Tech claims that by having a 'no gun'
    policy no one can get shot.

    August 02, 2008
    WSET-13 Lynchburg

    A Virginia Tech employee is in the hospital after police say he shot
    himself on campus Saturday. According to school officials, the
    incident happened in Cassell Coliseum about 2:15 Saturday afternoon.
    They say there was no threat to the university community. The victim
    was transported to Roanoke for treatment, but there is no word on his
    condition at this time. Immediately after the shooting, the university
    sent out a campus-wide email telling students and faculty what
    happened. Virginia Tech officials were criticized for not alerting the
    campus community sooner that there had been a shooting on campus on
    April 16th last year. That day a student killed two other students in
    a dorm room, then two hours later killed 30 teachers and students in a
    classroom across campus before committing suicide.

    3. VCDL has three new Executive Members

    VCDL has three new Executive members: Andrew Dysart, and Billy and Jan

    Andrew has been extremely active in fighting for college students,
    faculty and staff to be able to carry a concealed handgun on campus if
    they have a CHP.

    Billy and Jan Donald pitch in at VCDL events around the state. If
    you've had a hot dog or hamburger at a VCDL picnic, there's a good
    chance that Billy cooked it for you. The husband/wife team can be
    counted on when we need help.

    4. Government vs. private property: it matters

    From time to time I get an email where the writer shows some
    confusion about whether private property can ban guns, especially
    without signage to that effect.

    There is a world of difference between public property and private
    property when it comes to banning guns.

    On property owned by the state or by localities, with few exception,
    like in a jail or holding cell area, guns CANNOT be banned for NON-

    On private property, guns can be banned at will. There is no need for
    a sign - a verbal warning is sufficient and legal from the private
    property owner. And don't get hung up on the word "owner". Anyone
    acting as an agent for the owner can issue the notice.

    If you are asked to leave because of your gun on PRIVATE property, DO

    As long as it is not posted people can continue to carry there - what
    happened to you might be a quirk or just an unwritten policy against
    open carry. If you are unlucky enough to be asked to leave while at
    an establishment and you can't politely and respectfully convince them
    to let you stay in very short order, then honor their request and
    leave quietly and contact VCDL at: <

    If you must leave, try to find out if their "no gun" policy is
    storewide or just at that business, if it applies only to employees,
    and if you can get a copy of the policy.

    5. Officials at conference: campus lockdown not possible

    Someone has taken a *serious* look at what it takes to 'lockdown' a
    sprawling university campus. The conclusion? Forget about it.

    Aug 05, 2008

    Authorities can lock down a kindergarten classroom, a middle school or
    a prison. But officials say it's not really possible to lock down a
    sprawling college campus.

    "We're designed to allow free movement, free thought," Michael Young,
    director of public safety at Washington and Lee University, told his
    counterparts from across the state during a conference yesterday on
    campus safety.

    The 2008 Governor's Campus Preparedness Conference brought about 500
    people to Virginia Commonwealth University for a day of discussions
    that spanned issues from terminology to threat assessment.

    It was the second year for the conference, which last year focused on
    security in the aftermath of the 2007 shootings at Virginia Tech.
    Yesterday's conference took an "all-hazards approach" to also include
    threats ranging from a natural disaster to a flu pandemic, said Robert
    P. Crouch, assistant to the governor for commonwealth preparedness.

    At one session participants got an overview of new state and federal
    legislation on campus safety.

    The federal Higher Education Act, for example, requires schools to
    report hate crimes, including larceny and vandalism.

    Virginia legislation requires schools to set up threat-assessment
    teams and adopt crisis and emergency-response plans that must be
    reviewed and revised every four years.

    By January, they must have a first-warning system in place. The
    conference included vendors selling the latest in communication
    technology for such systems.

    But Robert Dillard, chief of police for the University of Richmond,
    cautioned against the false sense of security that instant-
    notification systems offer.

    Campus officials still must confirm what's going on, he pointed out.
    Not long after the Tech tragedy, a report of shots fired on campus
    turned out to be "offensive linemen throwing cherry bombs at each

    The alerts, he said, have the potential to cause "absolute, total
    panic and fear."

    At UR, one student remained hidden for more than four hours after a
    May incident because she was out of cell-phone range and did not
    receive an all-clear message.

    UR has taken a number of steps because of that incident, caused by an
    intruder with a pellet gun and a fake beard.

    The school has installed locks on classrooms and labs so that students
    and staff can seek "secure shelter" -- the term they prefer over

    Peepholes are being installed in doors because people who have locked
    themselves in aren't going to open a door for someone claiming to be
    police, Dillard said.

    Michael F. Lynch, chief of police at George Mason University, said he
    was troubled by the "blame-storming" that followed the Tech tragedy.

    Well-intentioned panels and studies make recommendations on how to
    identify the next shooter, he said.

    They also imply the shootings in Norris Hall, where 30 people were
    killed, could have been prevented if Tech had been locked down after
    an earlier shooting in a dormitory.

    "Virginia Tech cannot be locked down," he said. "I call it impossible."

    6. LTE: Member refutes restaurant carry ban

    Member Alan Rose of Franklin, VA wrote this model letter-to-the-editor.

    Last week I wore my concealed handgun into three restaurants that
    serve alcohol. This is a crime in Virginia. Many alarmists have warned
    of Wild West-style pandemonium if concealed handguns were to be
    permitted to commingle with alcohol. I was on vacation in the Wild
    West, traveling through some of the most rural portions of Texas on a
    journey between Dallas and Corpus Christi, in a state that trusts its
    citizens more than Virginia does. So what happened in these 'handguns
    allowed' restaurants? Absolutely nothing.

    No duels, no dinner shootouts, no deadly arguments. No robberies. Just
    trustworthy citizens going about their lives. Maybe next year Virginia
    citizens can be deemed to be as trustworthy as Texans are. Are we
    really that different?

    7. Yes: renewing 180-90 days ahead of expiry is the law

    Member Bob Risacher of Farmville, VA wrote to us about his experience
    exercising the newly revised CHP renewal law. We will probably be
    seeing a lot of this for several months as the Court Clerks start
    being exposed to people demanding they follow the new law. If you are
    on the leading edge, you may have to educate your local Circuit Court

    Mr. Risacher writes:

    "Just to alert you to the problems (forewarned is forearmed) that some
    have had with the 'powers-that-be' around the state, I want to report
    the excellent service that I recently received here in Prince Edward
    County. Thanks to the notices that I received from VCDL, I applied
    for my CWP renewal in the 90-180 day time slot prior to my permit's
    expiration date. The Clerk's office approved it in about two weeks.
    When I picked it up and after I got home, I realized that it had been
    mistakenly dated at the date it was approved rather than for my
    October renewal date. A phone call to the Clerk's office resulted in
    a fast and efficient correction. The young lady who assisted me
    stated that she had seen the notice of the law change but had
    apparently forgotten it. As soon as I told her that I believed that
    the date was incorrect, she had it corrected as quickly as she was
    able to obtain the Clerk's signature."

    8. Culpeper Police Chief wants to ban shooting

    This bears watching:

    By Allison Brophy Champion
    August 3, 2008

    Culpeper town law prohibits the shooting of guns in town except for
    residents who have a special permit from the town manager to do so.

    Police Chief Scott Barlow wants to close that loophole.

    "We are so populated now it is not safe to allow folks to shoot in
    town when their neighbors are just a stones throw away," he said in an
    e-mail Friday about occasional requests from town citizens for
    permission to shoot garden pests.

    At its meeting last week, the Public Safety Committee passed through
    the chief's recommendation to Town Council.

    "There's no reasonable reason to discharge firearms in town," Barlow
    told the committee. "It's too congested for that now."

    The chief said many cities regulate the distance from residential
    areas from which a gun can be discharged.

    "It's another way of saying, don't do it," Barlow said.

    He added that the proposed Town ordinance change - deleting the
    provision for a special permit from the Town Manager to shoot a gun in
    town - would not apply to self-defense.

    Consideration of the local law change will go before Town Council at
    its meeting Aug. 12 for a first reading. A second reading on the
    matter will be held at the Sept. 9 meeting, at which time council
    could vote to implement the change.

    Closing gun loophole
    *What it says now:
    Culpeper Town Code Section 26-1, Discharge of firearms, says, "No
    person shall discharge, shoot or set off firearms of any description
    within the town, except pursuant to a written permit issued by the
    town manager or his designee. If the person applying for such permit
    desires to discharge firearms on any land other than his own, he shall
    present to the town manager or his designee written permission from
    the owner of the land on which the firearms will be discharged."
    *What it would say if amendment approved by Town Council:
    "No person shall discharge, shoot or set off firearms of any
    description within the town."

    [PVC: At a minimum, there needs to be an exception for self-defense
    written into the ordinance!]

    9. LTE -- pretty smart 8th grader

    LTE Fredericksburg Free Lance-Star
    August 7, 2008

    D.C. residents should be able to own guns

    This is in response to Richard Amrhine's July 20 column ["Ruling has
    gun-control advocates reaching for the sky"].

    Mr. Amrhine pointed out the main interpretations of the Second
    Amendment, which is the right to bear arms.

    Primarily mentioned was that every citizen should have the right to
    own a gun. The second interpretation is that citizens should have the
    right to own a weapon for use in a government-regulated militia.

    I believe that in the case of Washington, D.C., the first
    interpretation should be applied.

    Those who support gun control are outraged over the court ruling for a
    number of reasons, but the main one is that the court has agreed to
    allow weapons.

    However, I believe that they have neglected to acknowledge one key
    point: Death tolls resulting from the use of a handgun have
    drastically risen over the past 10 years.

    Allowing the ban to exist has not only failed to lower the quantity of
    weapons on the street, but it has also left Washington residents
    without protection against those who use guns for violent means.

    I think the gun-control laws in Washington should be lifted so people
    can defend themselves against those using weapons with cruel intentions.

    Gus Stevens

    The writer is a rising eighth-grader at Rodney Thompson Middle School.

    10. Going After Crimes -- and Guns -- in Richmond

    Project Exile is still villainizing guns, in my opinion. Yes, we
    don't want criminals using guns to harm or kill people, but I don't
    want criminals harming people with any tool or in any way:

    The Wall Street Journal
    August 5, 2008; Page A12

    RICHMOND, Va. -- The National Rifle Association and the Brady Campaign
    to Prevent Gun Violence rarely agree on anything related to gun laws.
    But both support a law-enforcement program in Richmond that targets
    gun crimes.

    The Supreme Court's Second Amendment decision in June that struck down
    restrictions on individual gun ownership caused city officials
    nationwide to worry that they could see an increase in gun violence.
    It also renewed interest in Richmond's efforts to combat it. The city
    has already reduced firearm-related violence dramatically. It has done
    so not by making gun purchases more difficult -- Virginia is one of
    the easiest places to legally buy a handgun -- but by severely
    punishing all gun crimes, including those as minor as illegal

    The decade-old program is credited with reducing the number of guns on
    the streets by 31% in its first year, 1997. By 2007, the city
    registered 56 murders, down from 112 in 1996, the last full year
    before the program was implemented. Armed robberies dropped nearly a

    "What they're doing in Richmond isn't brain surgery," says Bureau of
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives spokesman Mike Campbell.
    "They are sitting down and working for a common goal: put the mopes
    with the guns in jail. Word spreads when you do that."

    Dubbed Project Exile, the program forms the foundation of a series of
    local, state and federal law-enforcement partnerships. It focuses on
    the city's most violent areas and hands out harsh sentences for any
    crime involving a firearm, a move that runs counter to traditional
    city tactics of barring gun stores and crafting onerous licensing

    With concern over crime rising amid budget cuts to local law
    enforcement, a small but growing number of law-enforcement officials
    view Project Exile and the cooperative efforts in Richmond as a way to
    further accelerate the decline. Other cities, including Springfield
    and Peoria in Illinois have visited to see what Richmond is doing.

    Although the NRA is challenging gun laws in various cities such as San
    Francisco and Chicago, it supports Richmond's efforts.

    "By prosecuting them they prevent the drug dealer, the gang member and
    the felon from committing the next crime," says NRA Executive Vice
    President Wayne LaPierre. "Leave the good people alone and lock up the
    bad people and dramatically cut crime."

    Although it wants more done to tamp down the supply of guns, the Brady
    Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence also supports Richmond's efforts,
    says Peter Hamm, Brady spokesman. The organization supports any
    measure that reduces violent crime, which the Richmond effort is
    doing, he says.

    Before Project Exile began in 1997, Richmond had the third-highest
    murder rate in the nation, according to Federal Bureau of
    Investigation statistics. Guns were the weapons of choice. That year,
    then Deputy Assistant U.S. Attorney James Comey and Assistant Federal
    Prosecutor David Schiller promised 100% prosecution of gun crimes.
    They ran television and radio ads. A 40-foot city bus was emblazoned
    with the message: "An Illegal Gun Gets You 5 Years in Federal Prison."
    Bail was unlikely, parole nonexistent, and inmates facing federal time
    were more likely to be sent to prisons out of state.

    As Project Exile has matured, the marketing campaign has toned down
    and it has become the basis for a larger cooperative effort. The tough
    penalties are still in place, but the state has added gun-related
    penalties of its own, some more severe than federal punishment. At a
    bimonthly meeting, a team of police, agents and state and federal
    prosecutors determine in which venue they will bring a case to ensure
    the maximum possible penalty.

    "Whether you take a person state or federal, that person's gone," says
    David McCoy, the interim Richmond police chief. "The goal is to
    address violent crime and get violent criminals off the street."

    In the 1990s other jurisdictions created similar programs to Exile and
    like Richmond had initial reductions in gun violence. They experienced
    a similar rise in that violence in the early 2000s. Violent crime
    dropped nationally in 2007 after a two-year rise -- even as violent
    crime continued to go up in smaller cities.

    Richmond, however, seems to have overcome at least one obstacle that
    has endured elsewhere. Although state and federal agencies talk
    cooperation, there are turf wars -- and agencies aren't always as
    collegial as they are in Richmond.

    But Richmond doubled down on the cooperation among state and federal
    agencies. The eight federal, state and local law-enforcement agencies
    and federal and state prosecutors meet regularly almost like one super
    police force determining where to deploy personnel.

    In one example of cooperation, agents from the Bureau of Alcohol,
    Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the FBI took a case to ease the
    workload on local authorities, says Brian Swann, who heads the ATF
    office here. The defendant killed a man who was trying to steal his
    crack cocaine. Although murder cases aren't usually federal, this one
    involved a firearm and drugs, and so could be moved to federal court.
    The defendant got life plus 40 years.

    North of downtown, Mr. Swann and fellow ATF agent James Panos cruise
    in an unmarked car. While the agents conduct investigations, they also
    patrol like city police, engaging citizens and talking to potential
    suspects, "just to let them know we're here and keeping an eye on
    them," Mr. Swann says.

    The agents respond to all murders in their sectors, as well as all
    shootings. The other local, state and federal agencies conduct similar

    "If we get called out" and someone identifies a suspect as Peanut, "I
    expect my guys to know who 'Peanut' is, who his grandmother is, who he
    hung out with last night," Mr. Swann says.

    Residents have become accustomed to the agents and wave from porches
    as they drive by. One house is pockmarked from an old shooting.
    Nearby, Mr. Panos identifies several people familiar to authorities.
    One was the subject of a 2006 raid at his home where three guns and 10
    grams of crack cocaine were seized. "We couldn't tie him to the guns,"
    Mr. Panos says.

    Further along, another young man eyes the car warily. He is known
    around the neighborhood as a low-grade drug dealer, but one who
    refuses to carry a gun, Mr. Panos says.

    It is quiet for the moment, even in the Providence Park area where
    there were six shootings earlier this year. State, local and federal
    officials descended on the area and things have calmed down. "Maybe
    we'll be out of a job one day," says Mr. Panos.

    11. Capital Gun Owners organization formed

    Organizer Amy McVey (first person to have gun registered in D.C. under
    the emergency legislation enacted following the striking of D.C.'s gun
    ban by the Supreme Court) sent us the following note, and below that
    is the Washington Times coverage:

    "Please join our organization! We have members who are DC residents
    as well as business owners and employees. You do not have to be a gun
    owner but rather a person who supports the concept that Washington DC
    residents and visitors should be able to fully exercise their rights
    protected by the Second Amendment.

    We will keep your personal information private.

    Please respond with an e-mail to <> with your name,
    address, and a preferred e-mail address. I am encouraging you to send
    this to your friends and family who may be willing to join us. There
    is strength in numbers!

    And...if you are a DC Resident or Business Owner and have not yet
    signed my on-line petition to repeal the ban on semi-automatic guns,
    click on the link or copy and paste in your browser:

    Please note that our website <> is
    currently under construction.

    For more information contact:

    Amy McVey 202-966-9276

    George Lyon 202-828-9472



    Thursday, August 7, 2008
    Gun owners arm themselves with advocacy group
    David C. Lipscomb THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    As the District prepares to fight double-barreled attempts to loosen
    its gun-control laws, some of the city's gun rights pioneers have done
    what folks in Washington do best - they have formed a lobbying group.

    About a dozen residents have pledged their support to Capital Gun
    Owners, a new D.C.-based gun advocacy and education group headed by
    Northwest resident Amy McVey.

    "We're at a point where we're feeling our way here," said Mrs. McVey,
    who was the first D.C. resident to register a handgun after the
    District's 32-year-old ban on handguns was struck down by the Supreme
    Court in June. "I'm sure our mission will evolve as needed."

    The group includes co-founders George Lyon and Gillian St. Lawrence,
    who were among the six plaintiffs in the initial challenge to the
    District's handgun ban in 2003, which led to the District of Columbia
    v. Heller Supreme Court case.

    Mrs. McVey said the four-day-old group will lobby for less gun control
    and provide residents with gun-education resources as more of them
    seek to own guns.

    The formation of the group comes as the District is taking fire from
    two sides - U.S. District Court and Congress - on its still-rigid gun-
    control laws.

    On July 28, Dick Anthony Heller, who won his case in the Supreme
    Court, and two others filed a challenge against the city's ban on
    semiautomatic weapons, which it defines as machine guns.

    This week, the House of Representatives agreed to vote next month on a
    bill that would repeal the ban and eliminate registration requirements
    for people who pass federal licensing standards.

    Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton, D.C. Democrat, opposes the bill. She
    said it treads on home rule in the District and would be detrimental
    to the city's crime-fighting efforts.

    Mrs. McVey said the group's top priorities are lobbying the District
    to lift its ban on semiautomatic handguns, allow residents to carry
    handguns outside of the home, streamline or eliminate firearm
    registration and lobby Congress to allow D.C. residents to buy
    handguns in Maryland and Virginia.

    Currently, firearms in the District must be registered, kept in the
    home and locked or disassembled unless they are being used for self-

    Most semiautomatic handguns are prohibited because they fall under the
    city's definition of a machine gun, which is any gun that can hold 12
    or more rounds without being reloaded.

    Federal law requires people to purchase handguns in the state in which
    they live.

    The creation of the group comes amid uncertainty about how many law-
    abiding people are interested in purchasing firearms in a city
    suffering from a high rate of gun violence.

    Since the city opened handgun registration July 17, 287 persons have
    picked up handgun applications, 21 have brought in handguns to be
    registered and 11 have completed the process, according to
    Metropolitan Police spokeswoman Traci Hughes.

    However, Mr. Lyon said he does not think D.C. residents are
    overwhelmingly against guns and that more supporters will surface as
    the organization becomes better known.

    "I'm not positive that we're in the minority," Mr. Lyon said. "I'd
    like to think that we'd put a positive face on the concept of gun

    D.C. Council member Phil Mendelson, at-large Democrat, said he thinks
    groups like Capital Gun Owners are essential to crafting fair and
    reasonable legislation and looks forward to hearing from members when
    the Council addresses gun laws.

    But Mr. Mendelson, who chairs the Council's committee on public
    safety, said he thinks some of the criticism that has been made of the
    existing laws may be premature because they have not been examined
    since the gun ban was enacted in 1976.

    "We have to take the law off the shelf, dust it off and see where the
    flaws are," he said.

    Mr. Mendelson said he still does not know whether he will convene a
    special committee hearing to examine gun laws while the Council is on
    summer recess.

    The Council last month passed emergency legislation that is in effect
    for 90 days, outlining gun-registration procedures.

    The Council is expected to draft permanent legislation in September
    after studying the impact and effectiveness of the current measures.

    12. House Democrats Seek Less-Rigid D.C. Gun Laws

    By Mary Beth Sheridan and Paul Duggan
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Tuesday, August 5, 2008; B01

    Democratic leaders in the U.S. House of Representatives have agreed to
    allow a vote next month on a bill that would end local handgun control
    in the District, making it easier for D.C. residents to acquire
    pistols, including semiautomatics, while eliminating the strict
    handgun-storage requirements imposed by the city.

    Supporters say the bill has a good chance of passing the House, where
    pro-gun measures are popular. But it is unclear whether it would
    succeed in the Senate, where complex rules make it harder to push
    through legislation.

    "This poses a real danger," Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.) said,
    criticizing the legislation as "radical" because it would gut the
    city's gun-control rules.

    "If it passes the House," she said, "you have to hope the Senate
    doesn't take it up."

    The measure, filed Thursday by several conservative Democrats, adds
    more fuel to the debate over gun control in the nation's capital.
    After a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision June 26 ended the city's
    32-year-old handgun ban, the District replaced the ban with strict
    handgun limits, which critics say violate the high court's ruling.

    The bill would scrap those limits, allowing residents to own handguns
    without registering them with the D.C. police department, provided
    they meet federal requirements for firearms ownership.

    Besides abolishing the requirement that owners keep their handguns
    unloaded in their homes and either disassembled or fitted with trigger
    locks, the measure would repeal the city's prohibition on most
    magazine-fed semiautomatic handguns -- a ban that has been in effect
    for decades and was not part of the Supreme Court case.

    The legislation also would allow D.C. residents to buy and take
    delivery of handguns in Virginia and Maryland. Federal law currently
    prohibits gun buyers from acquiring the weapons in states where they
    do not reside.

    Key negotiators on the bill, including Rep. John D. Dingell (D-Mich.),
    said in a statement that they have "an agreement with House
    leadership" for the measure to come to a vote early next month. The
    legislation was offered as a compromise after House Republicans had
    maneuvered to get a vote on another measure that would have gone even
    further, repealing a D.C. law that allows gun makers to be sued by
    victims of firearms violence.

    Rep. Jason Altmire (D-Pa.), one of the bill's sponsors, said
    supporters of the measure think that the city has "basically thumbed
    its nose" at the Supreme Court's 5 to 4 decision by enacting tough
    limits on handgun ownership. The majority opinion affirmed an
    individual's right under the Second Amendment to own firearms for self-
    defense but said that governments may enact reasonable restrictions.

    If the legislation fails, Altmire said, "at least we, as people who
    are accountable to our constituents, can go back home and talk about
    what we did on the issue."

    Forty-eight Democrats have signed on as sponsors of the bill,
    including Democrats from pro-gun districts who could be vulnerable in
    November's election. Norton said in a statement that those Democrats
    "hope to relieve election year pressure by getting a Democratic-backed
    bill to the floor, out of fear that the [National Rifle Association]
    will run hometown ads against their reelection."

    Democrats have a 37-seat advantage in the House.

    While the debate goes on, D.C. police are continuing to process gun-
    registration applications, limiting owners to one handgun each while
    the prohibition on most semiautomatic handguns remains in place.

    As of Friday, police said, 21 applications had been received and 11
    approved. Among those who now have legal handguns in their D.C. homes
    is Dick A. Heller, 66, a security guard from Capitol Hill who sued the
    city over the 1976 handgun ban and won the Supreme Court case.

    Heller filed another lawsuit against the District last week, alleging
    that the restrictions imposed by the District after the high court's
    decision violate the letter and spirit of the ruling.

    Of the 11 newly registered handguns, police said, eight had been
    stored outside the District by their owners while the ban was in
    place. The other three were kept illegally in D.C. homes during the
    ban and were registered in recent days under an amnesty program.

    Police said three applications have been denied (and the handguns
    seized) because the applicants had criminal records. The other seven
    applications are pending.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
    Explosives said two men are federally licensed to sell firearms in
    D.C. But the men deal only with selected clients, including police
    officers and security companies, the agency said.

    Unless the House legislation becomes law, allowing D.C. residents to
    purchase handguns across state lines in Virginia and Maryland, most
    would-be gun owners in the nation's capital will have to wait for a
    federally licensed dealer in the city to start doing business with
    more customers.

    13. In Connecticut we'll take your gun, just in case

    What happens when government gets too big for its britches:

    August 04, 2008

    A new report to the Connecticut state legislature shows police have
    used the state's unique gun seizure law to confiscate more than 1,700
    firearms from citizens based on suspicion that the gun owners might
    harm themselves or others.

    The state's law permits police to seek a warrant for seizing a
    citizen's guns based on suspicion of the gun owner's intentions,
    before any act of violence or lawbreaking is actually committed.

    The law was first proposed in 1998, following a mass shooting at the
    Connecticut Lottery Corporation that left five dead, including the
    gunman. Since the law went into effect Oct. 1, 1999, according to new
    Office of Legislative Research report, police have made more than 200
    documented requests for warrants to seize firearms from citizens, and
    only two of the requests have been denied.

    The law has remained hotly debated since its passage, as some point to
    possible murders and suicides it may have prevented, and others worry
    that police would abuse the law.

    "It certainly has not been abused. It may be underutilized," Ron
    Pinciaro, co-executive director of Connecticut Against Gun Violence,
    told the Waterbury Republican American. "The bottom line from our
    perspective is, it may very well have saved lives." [PVC: I'll bet if
    Mr. Pinciaro's private property was snatched up at will by the police,
    he'd be squealing like a stuck pig.]

    Attorney Ralph D. Sherman, who has represented several of the gun
    owners whose firearms were confiscated under the law, disagrees.

    "In every case I was involved in I thought it was an abuse," he told
    the newspaper. "The overriding concern is anybody can report anybody
    with or without substantiation, and I don't think that is the American

    Joe Graborz, executive director of the Connecticut Civil Liberties
    Union, an affiliate of the ACLU, told WND the law "continues to invest
    unusual and far-reaching powers in police authority that does not
    belong there" by requiring "police to act as psychologists in trying
    to predict and interpret behavior."

    "What is the standard of proof on this?" he asked. "The way this law
    is written, it can and will be easily abused by police."

    Under the statute, dubbed the "turn in your neighbor" law by
    opponents, any two police officers or a state prosecutor may seek a
    warrant, following a specified process of investigation, to confiscate
    guns from people deemed a risk to harming themselves or others. The
    vast majority of cases, however, begin when a person -- usually a
    spouse or live-in, according to the OLR report -- file a complaint.

    Shortly after the law was passed, Thompson Bosee of Greenwich, Conn.,
    had his guns and ammunition seized by police. Bosee told WND in 1999
    he suspects a neighbor, with whom he has had words regarding the
    neighbor's driving on Bosee's property, might have reported him.

    "They had a warrant for my guns, they arrested my guns," said Bosee.

    A member of both the NRA and the American Gunsmithing Association,
    Bosee said he works on his guns in his garage and is not ashamed of it.

    Although Greenwich Police would not comment, they released a list of
    the guns and ammunition they seized from Bosee, including six
    handguns, three rifles, one shotgun, one submachine gun and 3,108
    rounds of ammunition.

    The new OLR report shows that in most cases, relatives or neighbors of
    the gun owner filed the complaint when they feared for their own
    safety or feared the owner was suicidal. In a case from Southington,
    however, a man had his gun taken for threatening to shoot a dog.

    Attorney Ralph Sherman told WND the law's cruelty to animals
    justification for gun seizure worries him.

    "If I throw a rock or a newspaper at a dog in my yard or in my garden,
    that doesn't mean I'm mentally unbalanced," he said. "What if a
    neighbor doesn't like me and sees that?"

    In October 2006, according to the Republican American, police obtained
    a seizure warrant after a man made 28 unsubstantiated claims of
    vandalism to his property. The police application for seizure
    described the man as paranoid and delusional, citing extensive self-
    protection measures installed on the man's property, including alarms,
    cameras and spotlights.

    Four months after the man's guns were taken, a judge ruled that police
    had failed to show the man posed any risk and ordered the guns
    returned. According to the ruling, the gun owner had no history of
    documented illness, criminal activity or misuse of firearms. "In fact,
    the firearms were found in a locked safe when the officers executed
    the warrant," the ruling said.

    The law dictates that courts hold a hearing within 14 days of a
    seizure to determine the eventual fate of the guns. In most cases,
    according to the OLR report, the guns are held for a period of up to a
    year, destroyed or sold. The Republican American reports that in 22 of
    the more than 200 cases, the guns were ordered returned.

    Connecticut State Rep. Michael P. Lawlor, House chairman of the
    Judiciary Committee and one of the chief authors of the law, told the
    Republican American he wasn't aware of any pending challenges to the
    law's constitutionality.

    "The whole point was to make sure it was limited and constitutional,"
    he said.

    Sherman however, said the law hasn't been challenged yet, simply
    because it is used sparingly and a test case would prove too costly
    for the average gun owner.

    14. McCain seems to propose martial law for US

    Not sure if he said what he meant, but answering a question about his
    approach to combating crime, John McCain suggested that military
    strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to
    high crime neighborhoods here in the US. McCain called them tactics
    "somewhat like we use in the military...You go into neighborhoods, you
    clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live
    there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under

    Link to the audio:


    15. Student Group Lobbying for Legislation to Allow Concealed Firearms
    on College Campuses

    Diverse Online
    By Michelle D. Anderson
    Aug 4, 2008


    State legislators and students supporting legislation to allow
    concealed firearms on college campuses aimed to debunk the notion that
    "traditional"-aged college students are too reckless to own and
    possess firearms during a recent public forum held in Washington, D.C.

    During its first national meeting, "Supporting Self-Defense on
    Campus", Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC) along with The
    Second Amendment Federation (SAF), hosted a six-part forum on Aug. 1
    at the National Press Club in an attempt to gain support for
    legislation allowing concealed guns on college campuses nationwide.
    The group advocates that licensed individuals at least 21 years old
    with substantial training and background checks should be allowed to
    carry concealed firearms on campus.

    Louisiana state Rep. Ernest Wooten (R) said groups like SCCC are
    "fighting a perception".

    "We need to be diligent, we need to pay attention, and we need to
    educate," Wooten said during the legislative panel discussion. "We
    have to prove that we're responsible."

    The former sheriff is behind the Louisiana's HB 199, which would allow
    students, faculty and staff with valid state-issued credentials to
    carry concealed weapons onto public Louisiana college campuses.

    Ken Stanton, a Virginia Tech graduate student pursuing a Ph.D. in
    engineering education, agreed in an earlier debate with Paul Helmke,
    president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. [PVC - This
    sentence doesn't make any sense, especially in light of the comments
    in the next two paragraphs. The reporter probably meant to say

    Stanton, who is the leader of Virginia Tech's SCCC chapter, said it is
    unfair that many people think all college students abuse drugs and
    binge drink, thus making them poor candidates to carry concealed
    firearms on campus.

    Helmke countered Stanton's argument saying college students are often
    likely to commit suicide and in engage in substance abuse-related

    The U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, in a 2006 national
    survey on drug use and health, reported that almost 70 percent of
    individuals aged 21-25 either engaged in social alcohol drinking,
    binge alcohol use or heavy alcohol use. It also reported that the
    rates for serious psychological distress in 2006 were highest for
    adults aged 18 to 25.

    Likewise, suicide is the second leading cause of death among college
    students, according to the National Mental Health Association.

    On April 16, 2007, a student gunman at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg
    gunned down 32 people and later turned the gun on himself, committing
    suicide. The massacre was followed by another shocking campus shooting
    last February at Northern Illinois University where a student killed
    five people and wounded 15, before committing suicide.

    Jeremy Schwab, a SCCC member and a student at University of Texas-
    Dallas, said his life experiences and the recent campus shootings have
    informed his support of concealed carry on college campuses.

    When Schwab was 16 years old, a robber pointed a gun at his head while
    Schwab was on his way to make a bank deposit. In college, Schwab would
    have a gun pointed to his head again near a coffee shop.

    "These laws protect the weak against the aggressive," said Oklahoma
    state Rep. Jason Murphey (R), who is behind Oklahoma's HB 2513. If the
    bill goes through, it would allow students to carry firearms on campus
    if they are at least 21 and are licensed to carry a concealed weapon.
    In February the bill was approved by the state's House Judiciary and
    Public Safety Committee, but stalled in March when another measure was
    proposed that would have lowered to 18 the legal age to become
    eligible for the concealed carry license. Many have said that measure
    is illogical because 18-year-olds cannot purchase handguns.

    Conceal-carry advocates in Oklahoma hope to follow in the steps of
    Utah, the first and only state to allow concealed guns to be carried
    on campus.

    Andrew Dysart, a George Mason University (GMU) student and leader of
    GMU's SCCC chapter, said he has been fighting for concealed carry on
    the Fairfax, Va.-based campus for some time.

    "I was met with full resistance and with full hostility from college
    administrators," said the 25-year-old Marine Corps veteran.

    As of May 1, SCCC had 30,000 members, 90 percent of whom were college

    Its social networking-based Facebook group, which currently has over
    32,000 members, has acted as a catalyst for the fairly new group's

    In April, the group held a national silent protest against gun-free
    zones by wearing empty holsters.

    The six-part forum also featured a debate about gun-free school zones;
    a panel discussion focused on students, legislature, media bias about
    guns on campus; and attorney Alan Gura, who was involved in the
    Supreme Court's recent ruling allowing handguns in the District of

    16. Chicago still trying to circumvent 2nd Amendment

    Even an anti-gun Chicago newspaper tells Chicago Mayor Daley to drop
    Chicago's handgun ban. BUT, they admit they don't like the Supreme
    Court ruling and, with a wink and a nod, tell Chicago that they can
    make applying for a permit for a handgun agonizingly slow - even worse
    than DC.

    That is how the battle with such places will be fought. Localities
    will drag their heels and make citizens wait very long times before
    they get a gun permit.

    Of course that will lead to a fight to get rid of the permit
    requirement to own a gun as unconstitutional. So bring it on, Chicago.

    Chicago Tribune
    August 1, 2008

    Wilmette's gun ban is history. Morton Grove, which passed the nation's
    first handgun ban, followed suit on Monday. Those towns repealed their
    laws because the U.S. Supreme Court in June knocked down Washington
    D.C.'s handgun ban. Local officials say they don't have the resources
    to fight challenges to their laws in court.

    There's another good reason for their decisions: They would lose. The
    Supreme Court has made that clear.

    Chicago Mayor Richard Daley, though, insisted last week that the city
    would defend its handgun ban in court. "Morton Grove can do anything
    that it wants," Daley said. "I don't look at this lightly-that, 'Oh,
    because the Supreme Court's done it we're just gonna dismiss it and
    all of a sudden people can arm themselves.' "

    Like Daley, this page strongly disagreed with the court's ruling. We
    admire his stand on this issue. But the court ruling was clear and
    explicit: A blanket ban on handgun ownership is unconstitutional under
    the 2nd Amendment.

    Fighting in court to uphold Chicago's ban might buy some time, but at
    a high cost. The city will pay for lawyers and then it will lose.
    Better to focus on a law the city can successfully defend.

    That doesn't mean that Chicago should abandon its duty to protect
    public safety and its crucial mission to keep guns off the city's
    streets. The Supreme Court's decision said that the right to own a gun
    under the 2nd Amendment "is not unlimited." The court didn't offer
    much elaboration on that. But that means there's still likely to be
    ways for state and local governments to impose reasonable restrictions
    on the sale and ownership of firearms that don't rise to a complete
    ban on possession. Such measures will have a decent chance of passing
    legal muster-if they are designed to ensure that firearms are
    permitted only to those who can use them safely for sport and for self-

    That is happening in Washington, D.C. The city recently replaced its
    handgun ban with a series of requirements for prospective gun owners.
    They can register a weapon if they clear a background check, pass a
    vision test and a written test of gun safety knowledge. They must keep
    their pistols at home, unloaded and either disassembled or equipped
    with trigger locks. The guns can be loaded and used only if the owner
    reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger from an
    attacker in the home.

    That last provision, and the rest of the law, is already being
    challenged, by the same plaintiff who successfully challenged the D.C.
    gun ban in the first place.

    The Supreme Court said a requirement that a lawful firearm in the home
    must be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock is unconstitutional
    unless it contains a provision that allows for self-defense. The
    courts will determine if the new Washington law goes far enough in
    protecting that right.

    But there is still room for strong license and safety requirements,
    and that's what Chicago should explore.

    Some gun advocates also accuse D.C. officials of concocting a
    cumbersome process to discourage gun ownership. Those officials have
    hinted that the city's gun registration bureaucracy could be
    grindingly slow. Chicago already knows how to play that game. Anyone
    who's grappled with the City Hall bureaucracy to get a tree trimmed or
    a building permit knows how Chicago's bureaucracy can plod along.

    We share Daley's anger at the 5-4 ruling of the Supreme Court. It was
    based on flawed legal reasoning, ignored precedent and will lead to
    years of litigation about the constitutionality of various firearms

    But there are no more appeals to that ruling. A handgun ban such as
    the one Chicago passed in 1982-well, the high court made clear that
    that's dead.

    Chicago will have to prepare to live with that ruling and find other
    ways to protect the public. Might as well start now.

    17. New VCDL Gun Show Coordinators

    VCDL would like to welcome two new coordinators who will be managing
    the recruiting and information tables at regional gun shows. Ed
    Burton is coordinator for the Norfolk region, and Danny Paulson is
    taking over for TJ Parmele in the NoVa region. Both Ed and Danny are
    long-time volunteers with VCDL, and we thank them for taking on this
    extra responsibility. There are now twelve volunteer gun show
    coordinators in eight regions throughout the state.

    18. Gun shows and events! Norfolk show needs volunteers!

    The Virginia Citizens Defense League thanks the following member-
    activists who generously gave of their time to advance and help defend
    the rights of their fellow gun owners by working our recruiting and
    information booth at the C&E gun show in Richmond, July 12-13:

    Carl Shuler, Sue Brush, Debra & Brian Weidman, David Crosby, Paul
    Henick, Billy Donald, Owen Pollard, JC, Dale Walsh, and Audrey

    We also thank the volunteers at the C&E gun show in Salem, July 19-20:

    Sherrill Smith, Ken Modica, John Everett, Bruce Powers, Rodney
    Metheny, Joe Eiermann, Dave and Denise Knight, Kathy Smith, and Clint

    Finally, we would like to thank the volunteers at the C&E/Showmasters
    gun show in Chantilly, July 25-27:

    TJ Parmele, Ken Bullock, David Spencer, Jim Kiser, Jay & Margot
    Alexander, Ken Moore, Max Padon, Larry Riley, Thomas Love, Jerry
    Coffey, David Park, Daniel Paulson, and Dexter Guptill


    As an all volunteer organization, VCDL depends on YOU to volunteer
    your time at our area events, where we recruit new activists and keep
    gun owners informed. No experience necessary; if it's your first time
    we'll pair you with a veteran volunteer. To find out more about
    helping at our gun show tables, go to:

    and click on any of the blue links, or contact the coordinator for the
    show/event listed below with which you are interested in helping.

    Here are the upcoming events with which we need YOUR help:

    a. ROANOKE, August 16-17

    Saturday, August 16 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, August 17 9:00 a.m. - 12:30 p.m. 12:30 p.m. - 4:00 p.m.

    Please contact Al Steed, Jr. at to help in

    , SALEM CIVIC CENTER, August 22-24

    Friday, August 22 12:00 p.m. - 4:00 p.m. 4:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m.
    Saturday, August 23 10:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m. 3:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m.
    Sunday, August 24 10:00 a.m. - 2:00 p.m. 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m.

    The VCDL table is being paid for again by Grahme Anderson, Empire
    Siding And Windows, Roanoke. Please contact Al Steed, Jr. at
    to help at this big show in Salem.

    c. HARRISONBURG, August 23-24

    Saturday, August 23 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, August 24 10:00 a.m. - 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.

    Please contact Bob Schmidt at to help in

    d. NORFOLK, September 6-7 **Help needed

    Saturday, September 6 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, September 7 10:00 a.m. - 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.

    Please contact Ed Burton at to help at the
    Norfolk Scope.

    e. CHANTILLY, September 12-14

    Friday, September 12 3:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m. Saturday, September 13 9:00
    a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m. Sunday, September 14 10:00 a.m.
    - 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.

    Please contact our Northern Virginia coordinator at
    to help in Chantilly.

    f. HAMPTON, September 20-21

    Saturday, September 20 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, September 21 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 4:00 p.m.

    Please contact Ron Lilly at to help in

    g. FISHERSVILLE, September 27-28

    Saturday, September 27 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, September 28 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 4:00 p.m.

    Please contact Bob Schmidt at to help in

    h. DALE CITY, October 4-5

    Saturday, October 4 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, October 5 9:00 a.m. - 12:30 p.m. 12:30 p.m. - 4:00 p.m.

    Please contact TJ Parmele at to help in Dale City.

    i. SALEM, October 4-5

    Saturday, October 4 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, October 5 10:00 a.m. - 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.

    Please contact Al Steed, Jr. at to help in Salem.

    j. VIRGINIA BEACH, October 11-12

    Saturday, October 11 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, October 12 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 4:00 p.m.

    Please contact Ron and Jean Hyson at to help in
    Virginia Beach.

    k. RICHMOND, October 18-19

    Saturday, October 18 9:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Sunday, October 19 10:00 a.m. - 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.

    Contact Audrey Muehleisen at to help at the
    Showplace in Mechanicsville.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA

    Post imported post

    VCDL's Gun Dealer Legal Defense Fund -- help fight Mayor Bloomberg's
    scheme to cripple Virginia firearms dealers. See:
    VCDL's meeting schedule:

    The Atlanta airport administration has decided to spit on a new
    Georgia state law and continue a ban on guns in the public, non-
    sterile areas of its airport.

    How does this effect Virginia gun owners?

    Because the airport is asking the TSA to setup a nationwide regulation
    banning guns on airport property, including the public, non-sterile

    No more leaving a gun in your car while you catch a flight. No more
    carrying a gun in parking lots or on public sidewalks at airports. No
    more having a gun in your car as you drive to the airport to pick
    someone up or drop them off.

    We must contact the TSA and the President and Vice President and ask
    them to keep the U.S. Government from implementing such a ban!

    Send an email using the three addresses below. Suggested text is


    Email addresses:,,


    Suggested message text:

    SUBJECT: Leave state law alone on lawful gun carry in airports!

    Dear President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and TSA Administrator

    I am concerned that big city officials from Atlanta and elements of
    the anti-gun movement are moving to misuse federal power to accomplish
    what they cannot do in state capitols - i.e., criminalize gun carry in
    the public and non-sterile areas of airports.

    The vast majority of state legislatures support the right to carry
    handguns in public, including the non-sterile areas of airports. Any
    effort to reverse these state law decisions by way of the federal
    bureaucracy insults federalism and the right to bear arms.

    According to the Supreme Court in the Heller decision the right to
    keep and bear arms is an individual right and, "[a]t the time of the
    founding, as now, to 'bear' meant to “'carry.'”

    Please ensure the TSA stays out of gun ban politics in Atlanta and
    across the Unites States!



    ************************************************** *************************
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    (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
    dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
    Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

    VCDL web page:
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    Carry On.


    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  3. #3
    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Virginia Beach, VA, , USA

    Post imported post

    Sent to all 3.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Arrington, Virginia, USA

    Post imported post

    Also sent to all 3

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA

    Post imported post

    me too
    Carry On.


    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  6. #6
    Regular Member dbc3804's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Henrico, Virginia, USA

    Post imported post


  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Virginia USA, ,

    Post imported post

    Email Webb as well as your Rep too guys!

  8. #8
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Bear, Delaware, USA

    Post imported post

    The principle of rule of law that is the cornerstone of our Democracy and way of life, was vindicated here.
    This is nitpicking, but I take exception to this statement -- our government is a Republic, not a Democracy.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Southeast, Missouri, USA

    Post imported post

    Wynder wrote:
    The principle of rule of law that is the cornerstone of our Democracy and way of life, was vindicated here.
    This is nitpicking, but I take exception to this statement -- our government is a Republic, not a Democracy.

    It pisses me off to no end, especially when presidential nominees, congressmen, the administration and most of all THE FRIGGIN' POTUS say it. I just chalk it up to yet one more reason to dissolve the Dept of Misinformation, er Education and let local people actually teach children again for a change. Stupid is as stupid does and most of the people in this country fit that.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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