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Thread: guns in bars

  1. #1
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    By Jennifer Sullivan

    Seattle Times staff reporter

    Map data ©2008 Tele Atlas - Terms of UseSee more mapped stories
    The Seattle police officer who wounded a Hells Angel during a barroom shooting in South Dakota early Saturday says he was forced to open fire after being attacked and pinned to the floor by up to three members of the notorious motorcycle gang.

    "I was cold-cocked on the left side of my face by at least one, if not three, Hells Angels," said the officer, who asked not to be named out of fear for his safety. Seattle police and union officials echoed that concern.

    "I woke up on the ground pinned against a bar stool by a Hells Angel in a red bandanna," the officer said. "I was receiving fists and feet from the top during this."

    The 43-year-old detective said he tried to wriggle free, but "didn't have any leverage." The Hells Angel in the bandanna tried to grab for the detective's gun just as another man was choking him, the detective said. He said he then pulled the handgun from his hip and opened fire.

    The shooting during the popular Sturgis Motorcycle Rally is now the subject of a grand-jury investigation by authorities in South Dakota's Meade County. Seattle police also are in Sturgis conducting an internal investigation.

    The detective, who is assigned to the Seattle department's pawnshop unit, and four other vacationing Seattle officers who were in the bar at the time of the shooting have been placed on administrative leave. All five are members of the Iron Pigs Motorcycle Club, which is made up of police officers and firefighters.

    The five officers were in a bar called the Loud American Roadhouse when they were circled by a group of men wearing Hells Angels patches on their clothes. The detective said one Hells Angel member "got in my face" and began an argument.

    The detective said he was knocked to the floor within 30 seconds. It's unclear what the other four Seattle officers were doing when the fight broke out.

    On Monday, Sturgis police identified the wounded man as Joseph McGuire, 33, of Imperial Beach, Calif. Police confirmed to the Rapid City Journal that McGuire is a member of the Hells Angels. He was listed in stable condition Monday.

    The Seattle detective suffered bruising and facial injuries, he said.

    Dean Kinney, co-owner of the Loud American Roadhouse, said there were nearly 400 people inside the bar when the shooting occurred. He said security staff told him that the Hells Angel and members of the Iron Pigs were "jawing back and forth" before the shooting happened.

    The detective said he was briefly detained by Sturgis police and asked to testify before a Meade County grand jury on Sunday.



    Meade County State's Attorney Jesse Sondreal told the Rapid City Journal that the hearing was a chance for out-of-state witnesses to explain what they saw to prosecutors before a decision is made on whether to file criminal charges.

    According to the newspaper, 25 people testified during the seven-hour court hearing.

    The detective said he explained what happened at the Loud American Roadhouse and the grand jury excused him. He is now back in Washington state.

    Sondreal said no arrests have been made and that the investigation could continue until the grand jury reconvenes on Aug. 27.

    Seattle police spokesman Sgt. Sean Whitcomb declined to comment Monday on the incident.

    The South Dakota Division of Criminal Investigation is reviewing state and federal laws pertaining to concealed-weapons permits to determine whether the detective did anything illegal by carrying a firearm into a bar, said Sara Rabern, spokeswoman for the South Dakota Attorney General's Office.

    Kinney, the bar owner, said he doesn't know how the Seattle detective got past security with a firearm.

    According to South Dakota law, people with concealed-weapons permits cannot carry firearms into bars. Police officers are exempt from this rule if they have written permission from the county sheriff, according to the law.

    However, a federal law enacted in 2004 supersedes the state law, allowing off-duty law-enforcement officers to carry weapons anywhere they choose, but it requires that the weapons handler is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    "I was not intoxicated," the detective said.

    Kinney said he doesn't recall any of the Iron Pigs group being drunk.

    The detective added that he believes the 2004 federal law gives him the right to carry a gun wherever he wants while off-duty. The detective said he always carries a gun at motorcycle rallies because he knows that a motorcycle club composed of cops and firefighters attracts negative attention from "outlaw" bikers.

    Thousands of motorcyclists descend on the small South Dakota city each year for the annual biker rally. Along with the everyday riders, attendees include Hells Angels, Banditos and other gangs. The weeklong rally wrapped up on Sunday.

    Kinney said the town's population swells from about 6,500 to nearly 500,000 during the rally. He said this year he saw Iron Pigs members inside his bar almost daily.

    "The Iron Pigs had been in there during the week and we never regarded them as trouble," Kinney said. "They were well behaved the whole time they had been there. They just seemed like normal guys who were riding Harleys and having a few drinks."

    The detective involved in the shooting said he has twice been investigated by the department of Office of Professional Accountability, a civilian police-oversight group, during his 15 years on the force. Both complaints were sustained by the group.

    One investigation stemmed from a verbal argument he got into with a Seahawk fan while working an off-duty assignment at Qwest Field in 2004. The detective said he also got into an argument inside a Pierce County restaurant in 2005 with a restaurant employee who was taunting and threatening him and his then-fiancee.

    The detective said he received a two-day suspension for the incident with the Seahawk fan and a written reprimand for the other incident.

    Jennifer Sullivan: 206-464-8294 or jensullivan@seattletimes.com

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    Original headline;
    Cop says he feared for his life in biker-bar attack
    URL http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...urgis12m0.html


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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Hhmmm. While I would like to see carry in bars legal in all states, this does not appear to be a "poster child" case to support that position. This is his at least third verbal confrontation in 15 years that we know of and I would be pretty comfortable betting that there were many more not reported or leading to complaints. Sounds like a bit of a hothead who get in over his head arguing with Hell's Angels.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    It must be nice to be a part of the privileged class.

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    We had an OC meetup here Vegas in a Pub/Bar. While i don't frequent bars (or drink much for that matter), having a gun strapped to ones side does tend to keep one more responsible. It is legal to carry in a bar/place that serves alcohol here, but we all were very responsible.

    If it were illegal to carry into establishments that do not serve alcohol, i would not be able to carry in ANY resturant out here.

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    Let's follow the logic trail...

    People go to the bar to drink alcohol. Alcohol and firearms don't mix, for many reasons,so you shouldn't carry while drinking. The only logical conclusion is that you shouldn't carry in a bar. Obviously people can't handle this, even LEO's, hence the need for bar bans.

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    Without hearing the victims side I can't make a well informed decision. . But I would guess that the only reason the hells angel reached for the gun is that he didn't want it used on him. . If I am in a fist fight with an armed person I would do the same thing!

    I am actually quite interested in what the other Iron Pigs were doing while he was getting his a$$ beat? I would be pissed if my friends left me!

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Let's follow the logic trail...

    People go to the bar to drink alcohol. Alcohol and firearms don't mix, for many reasons,so you shouldn't carry while drinking. The only logical conclusion is that you shouldn't carry in a bar. Obviously people can't handle this, even LEO's, hence the need for bar bans.
    You're still here?

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    If what yeahYeah said is true, I'd like to know how many bar-shootings there are from OC/CC people. We don't hear about them, so I somewhat doubt they occur.

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    MetalChris wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    Let's follow the logic trail...

    People go to the bar to drink alcohol. Alcohol and firearms don't mix, for many reasons,so you shouldn't carry while drinking. The only logical conclusion is that you shouldn't carry in a bar. Obviously people can't handle this, even LEO's, hence the need for bar bans.
    You're still here?
    Who else would there be to point out the obvious?

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    DopaVash wrote:
    If what yeahYeah said is true, I'd like to know how many bar-shootings there are from OC/CC people. We don't hear about them, so I somewhat doubt they occur.
    check it out: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2021752/posts



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    well there you go. What do you say to that, Stylez.

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    DopaVash wrote:
    well there you go. What do you say to that, Stylez.
    Probably a bunch of nonesense.

    /waits with baited breath

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    DopaVash wrote:
    well there you go. What do you say to that, Stylez.


    I say it looks like your chances of getting shot ata bar during a motorcycle rally are damn good.



    No one ever said that there would never be a case in which havinga gun at a bar would be in your best interest. It just comes down to the simple fact that bars are for drinking no one has any business handling a firearm, attempting to employ said firearm, or making life/death self-defense calls while under the influence. Allow the guns in the bars if you insist, but it better be open carry only so thata nice, zero tolerance blood alcohol limit can be strictly enforced.

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    Multiple close friends of mine are Blue Knights, but not Iron Pigs. It's been quite the topic of discussion lately.

    The IP have a reputation of being just another motorcycle gang, except with badges. The 1%er groups have a system of honor and respect among each other (it's convoluted and perverse to people who aren't gang members, but it's a strict protocol and they tolerate no violations). Both the IP and HA tend to go wherever they want and do whatever they wish, but HA at least deal with the consequences themselves. They back their own plays. The IP rely on their badges to get them out of jams.

    If this shooting had gone the other way, there wouldn't be a protracted "investigation": the shooter would be in jail facing an attempted capital murder charge.

    Oh, and the word the back-channel is that it was a HA "prospect", not member, who punched the cop. Meanwhile, one (!) large HA held back the other four officers. Some real bravery on their part, eh?


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    It seems to me like this was trouble waiting to happen. Why would a group of off duty LEO's hang out in a bar full of HA's? Sounds like poor judgement on the part of the IP's if you ask me.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Let's follow the logic trail...

    People go to the bar to drink alcohol.
    The only logical conclusion is that you shouldn't carry in a bar.
    I don't drink alcohol. Still there are occasions I find myself in a bar. In Texas at least, there are already laws that prohibit possessing a firearm while intoxicated. So I can't arrive at the same logical conclusion you have. CHUCK.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    It seems to me like this was trouble waiting to happen. Why would a group of off duty LEO's hang out in a bar full of HA's? Sounds like poor judgement on the part of the IP's if you ask me.
    Hell's Angels are people. Cops are people.

    People get together. People end up together.

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    The reason a BG takes a firearm off any one is to use it on them!

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    It seems to me like this was trouble waiting to happen. Why would a group of off duty LEO's hang out in a bar full of HA's? Sounds like poor judgement on the part of the IP's if you ask me.
    Although I see where you are coming from, why can't a group of anybody go anywhere? It's a free world, they should be able to do what they want. Having said that, I have seen MANY off duty instances where LEO's get targeted. It happened at a party where an off duty guy got fired because his civilian friend put up a questionable picture of his soon to be ex wife on the door. A neighbor complained to his department and they let him go. Just goes to show, we are indeed not equal. That's why I don't go to parties where people know I am an officer. If I have to go, I don't drink. It's unfair, but it's the way it is. I tell all rookies this but they don't listen.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Let's follow the logic trail...

    People go to the bar to drink alcohol.* Alcohol and firearms don't mix, for many reasons,*so you shouldn't carry while drinking.* The only logical conclusion is that you shouldn't carry in a bar.* Obviously people can't handle this, even LEO's, hence the need for bar bans.
    If I go to a bar, it's NOT to drink, but be social. I don't drink. Having a gun in the hands of one who is sober and trained is a great way to protect myself and others from OTHER drunk retards who wanna pull a gun out in a bar fight...

    Illegal to be drunk+armed=ok in my book. restrict the ACTION , not the person/place.

    ETA:

    Anyone who's impaired by drugs/alcohol is NOT responsible, at least in that moment, to be carrying a firearm. With ALL rights come RESPONSIBILITIES... call it dereliction of duty if you will, but getting drunk while armed is NOT a good idea...

    One or two beers is different than shitface plastered...

    Edit: pudgy fingers.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Bang Bang
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    'Illegal to be drunk and armed' is just like 'illegal to be crazy and armed' in that only a willing tyrant can decide 'drunk' or 'crazy'. Safety is a tyrant's tool because no one can be against safety.

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    TT
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    'Illegal to be drunk and armed' is just like 'illegal to be crazy and armed' in that only a willing tyrant can decide 'drunk' or 'crazy'.* Safety is a tyrant's tool because no one can be against safety.
    No, there are legal definitions of drunk, as there are 'crazy'.....

    Doesn't have anything to do with law, has to do with common sense...

    How comfortable would YOU be if you're at a bar, having A drink with friends, when a guy sitting next to you is shitfaced plastered, trying to start fights, who happens to have a pistol on his hip? What if he thinks it's cool to pull out and show people because he's inebriated and not thinking straight?

    Seriously, do you REALLY think someone can be drunk and maintain responsibility and have proper decision making abilities? We're only talking about the mental effects of alcohol, lets not even get me started on the PHYSICAL effects of alcohol, and how it might come into play in a situation involving a firearm...
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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