Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Good encounter with the Utah County Sheriffs

  1. #1
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    My family and I went to the Utah County Fair in Spanish Fork tonight. When we parked there was a volunteer sheriff directing traffic. He saw my wife and I carrying our Glocks, and said "Off Duty?" I replied, "I am always off duty." As soon as I said that, he got on his radio and reported us.

    Not a minute later, we were confronted by three Utah County Sheriffs. They asked us why we were carrying sidearms. We answered with the typical "self protection" responses. They informed us that a lot of people called and said that we were causing alarm. I replied that we had just barely arrived, and the only person that could have called so far was the volunteer in the parking lot.

    The asked us if we had concealed firearm permits. My wife acknowledged that she had one, and when asked, she presented it. I told them that I may or may not have a permit, and that open carry did not require any permit. After a few minutes of debate, a Sergeant came over to see us.

    He said that since we alarmed the volunteer and possibly others, that we could be charged with disorderly conduct. I politely disagreed, and informed the Sergeant that intent was required, and that peaceably carrying a holstered firearm does not constitute disorderly conduct. After some more debate, he got on his cell phone and made a call.

    While he was on his phone, one of the three sheriffs informed us that we had a choice to make. We were to either conceal our sidearms, or they would order us to leave the fairgrounds. I told them that I believed they were issuing us an unlawful order, and that our activity was protected by Utah law. They continued to ask us to conceal or leave, and we continued to resist.

    A few minutes later, the Sergeant returned. He informed us that he realizes that our activity is completely lawful, but since there were so many families and children around, he asked if would consider concealment. I politely declined his request, and he told us that we were free to go.

    Overall, they handled the situation professionally. The encounter took way too long in my opinion. We talked to them for about 15 minutes total. We were never disarmed, or detained. The conversation never got awkward enough for me to ask if I was being detained, so I let the situation play itself out. I have left out a lot of details, but I will post more if anybody cares.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SLC, ,
    Posts
    50

    Post imported post

    SGT Jensen wrote:
    My family and I went to the Utah County Fair in Spanish Fork tonight.* When we parked there was a volunteer sheriff directing traffic.* He saw my wife and I carrying our Glocks, and said "Off Duty?"* I replied, "I am always off duty."* As soon as I said that, he got on his radio and reported us.

    Not a minute later, we were confronted by three Utah County Sheriffs.* They asked us why we were carrying sidearms.* We answered with the typical "self protection" responses.* They informed us that a lot of people called and said that we were causing alarm.* I replied that we had just barely arrived, and the only person that could have called so far was the volunteer in the parking lot.

    The asked us if we had concealed firearm permits.* My wife acknowledged that she had one, and when asked, she presented it.* I told them that I may or may not have a permit, and that open carry did not require any permit.* After a few minutes of debate, a Sergeant came over to see us.

    He said that since we alarmed the volunteer and possibly others, that we could be charged with disorderly conduct.* I politely disagreed, and informed the Sergeant that intent was required, and that peaceably carrying a holstered firearm does not constitute disorderly conduct.* After some more debate, he got on his cell phone and made a call.

    While he was on his phone, one of the three sheriffs informed us that we had a choice to make.* We were to either conceal our sidearms, or they would order us to leave the fairgrounds.* I told them that I believed they were issuing us an unlawful order, and that our activity was protected by Utah law.* They continued to ask us to conceal or leave, and we continued to resist.

    A few minutes later, the Sergeant returned.* He informed us that he realizes that our activity is completely lawful, but since there were so many families and children around, he asked if would consider concealment.* I politely declined his request, and he told us that we were free to go.*

    Overall, they handled the situation professionally.* The encounter took way too long in my opinion.* We talked to them for about 15 minutes total.* We were never disarmed, or detained.* The conversation never got awkward enough for me to ask if I was being detained, so I let the situation play itself out.* I have left out a lot of details, but I will post more if anybody cares.
    So i'm curious do any of these officers ever learn gun laws like this in the P.O.S.T academy. It just boggles my mind only cops think they are allowed to carry firearms. The reason i'm so curious is I plan on attending post very soon and it just blows me away.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,221

    Post imported post

    SGT Jensen wrote:
    ....He informed us that he realizes that our activity is completely lawful, but since there were so many families and children around, he asked if would consider concealment. I politely declined his request, and he told us that we were free to go. ....
    Way to handle that. Sounds like you turned a potential negative into a delightful experience for both you and the LE. Gj.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    268

    Post imported post


  5. #5
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    Amendment 2 wrote:
    So i'm curious do any of these officers ever learn gun laws like this in the P.O.S.T academy. It just boggles my mind only cops think they are allowed to carry firearms. The reason i'm so curious is I plan on attending post very soon and it just blows me away.
    I have a friend who recently went through POST and corrections training here in Utah. He told me that they did not spend a lot of time on the issue, but they did teach him that open carry was lawful.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Bountiful, Utah, USA
    Posts
    119

    Post imported post

    Great point about the intent. I need to remember that. Intent is required for disorderly conduct. Well handled. Good that you didnt back down. Principles are powerful things.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    S L C, ,
    Posts
    72

    Post imported post

    +10 for big ballz , i honostly think i would have hesitated a lil bit when they asked me to CC or leave ....... i think that i need to brush up on the laws a lil !

    just a question .... was the fair by a school .... thats a doozy...... the last fair i went to was in murry for the 4th and that one was by as school so i did CC! Not to mention my car was parked right by the mobil command center ( of america) it was that big and swarming with LEOs!

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bedford, Texas, USA
    Posts
    834

    Post imported post

    SGT Jensen wrote:
    While he was on his phone, one of the three sheriffs informed us that we had a choice to make. We were to either conceal our sidearms, or they would order us to leave the fairgrounds. I told them that I believed they were issuing us an unlawful order, and that our activity was protected by Utah law. They continued to ask us to conceal or leave, and we continued to resist.
    Right there would have been me telling said sheriff that HE had a choice to make...

    Back up his unlawful order with action so I can sue, or let us be on our way.

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    This is one of the many parts of my story that I have not included yet.. I did ask him which law required me to conceal my firearm. He said he did not need a law, it was for the safety of everyone at the fair. :shock: I told him that if I did not have a concealed firearm permit, then he is asking me to break the law. They asked me to conceal or leave a number of times, but they never really sounded like they wanted to enforce the order. I am pretty sure they were just trying to intimidate us.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    119

    Post imported post



  11. #11
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    I was carrying fully loaded, and no, they never asked. I was not in a vehicle, or on a public street, I was in a fair park. The whole "Utah unloaded" thing seems to have become a blanket statement, when the law reads pretty clearly.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

    There is no law that states that you need to produce a permit if you are carrying fully loaded in a vehicle or a public street. Why give up your 5th amendment right if they don't ask? Now if they do know the law and ask if it is loaded, and you are in a vehicle or on a public street, then showing your permit might be in your best interest.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  12. #12
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    D94R wrote:
    While there is no duty to produce a permit for Utah (un)loaded, if you are OCing fully loaded you still must produce the permit if asked for it.
    When the statute existed... and it DOES NOT at this moment, the requirement was to "Immediately Identify yourself as a CFP holder if your are CARRYING CONCEALED," during a "terry stop".

    There is NO requirement to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are not carrying concealed.

    If you are not on a public road or in / on a vehicle you are NOT required to IDENTIFY your self as a CFP holder (LOADED OR UNLOADED) if you are NOT CARRYING concealed.

    JoeSparky

    Please note....
    I did not say that it would NOT be in your best interest (probably) if you are interacting with the officer to let him know that you are carrying ESPECIALLY during a vehicle stop!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    It looks like you need to get that changed so Utah can get Gold Star status!

  14. #14
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    The legislature has introduced bills in the past to fix this, but the always seem to collect dust, and never get the votes they need.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    JoeSparky wrote
    When the statute existed... and it DOES NOT at this moment, the requirement was to "Immediately Identify yourself as a CFP holder if your are CARRYING CONCEALED," during a "terry stop".

    There is NO requirement to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are not carrying concealed.

    If you are not on a public road or in / on a vehicle you are NOT required to IDENTIFY your self as a CFP holder (LOADED OR UNLOADED) if you are NOT CARRYING concealed.
    Just a few nits, Joe:

    First, the rule requiring CFP holders to identify themselves when detained and concealing is a rule, not a statute. You're correct that it momentarily doesn't exist, of course.

    Second, the rule, when it existed and as it's expected to be reinstated, makes no distinction between streets, vehicles and other areas. If you're detained (and I think Sgt Jensen was) and you're carrying concealed, you must identify yourself regardless of where you are.

    The location matters when it comes to carrying loaded without a permit. It's illegal to carry a loaded gun in a vehicle or on a street without a permit.

  16. #16
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    First off, I believe this rule was in violation of Utah preemption, so I am glad to see it gone.

    76-10-500. Uniform law.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.


    Second, the rule never stated that you must identify yourself as a permit holder for any reason (i.e. loaded) while carrying openly.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  17. #17
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    swillden wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote
    When the statute existed... and it DOES NOT at this moment, the requirement was to "Immediately Identify yourself as a CFP holder if your are CARRYING CONCEALED," during a "terry stop".

    There is NO requirement to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are not carrying concealed.

    If you are not on a public road or in / on a vehicle you are NOT required to IDENTIFY your self as a CFP holder (LOADED OR UNLOADED) if you are NOT CARRYING concealed.
    Just a few nits, Joe:

    First, the rule requiring CFP holders to identify themselves when detained and concealing is a rule, not a statute. You're correct that it momentarily doesn't exist, of course.

    Second, the rule, when it existed and as it's expected to be reinstated, makes no distinction between streets, vehicles and other areas. If you're detained (and I think Sgt Jensen was) and you're carrying concealed, you must identify yourself regardless of where you are.

    The location matters when it comes to carrying loaded without a permit. It's illegal to carry a loaded gun in a vehicle or on a street without a permit.
    Points taken and accepted...

    Keep on keeping me on my toes!

    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    119

    Post imported post



  19. #19
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Spanish Fork Utah, Utah, USA
    Posts
    193

    Post imported post

    Woot for Spanish Fork Open carry! Great job.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Alpine, Utah
    Posts
    126

    Post imported post

    Ok, now I'm confused.

    I was under the impression it was LEGAL in Utah to have a loaded weapon in your car without a permit if you own the car since it's considered your own private property.

    Or is that just a concealed weapon and it has to be unloaded if you don't have a permit.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SLC, Utah, USA
    Posts
    144

    Post imported post

    Porter N wrote:
    Ok, now I'm confused.

    I was under the impression it was LEGAL in Utah to have a loaded weapon in your car without a permit if you own the car since it's considered your own private property.
    You are correct, your car is considered an extension of your home, therefore you are allowed to carry fully loaded in your car without a permit. I believe this law went into effect around summertime of last year, so it is a fairly new law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    YoZUpZ wrote:
    Porter N wrote:
    Ok, now I'm confused.

    I was under the impression it was LEGAL in Utah to have a loaded weapon in your car without a permit if you own the car since it's considered your own private property.
    You are correct, your car is considered an extension of your home, therefore you are allowed to carry fully loaded in your car without a permit. I believe this law went into effect around summertime of last year, so it is a fairly new law.
    Excuse me for being nitpicky -- but you're both right in effect and wrong in reason.

    You can carry a handgun, either loaded or unloaded, concealed or open, in a vehicle that is under your lawful control. No permit is required. The vehicle need not be yours, you just have to be driving it lawfully (meaning with the permission of the owner -- you didn't steal it) or a passenger in it with permission of the person who is in lawful possession of the vehicle.

    However, the reason isn't because it's private property, or because it's an extension of your home, it's because the law specifically allows it.

    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.

  23. #23
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    I think part of the confusion has been the necroposting to this 2 year old topic.

    The laws have changed some since 2008!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  24. #24
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,792

    Post imported post

    Kevin,

    Respectfully, I think you are being far too generous. I'd classify this as a poor encounter that ended acceptably. But certainly not a good encounter to be detained, threatened with citation/arrest, and given unlawful orders.

    Of course, you handled things very well. But you shouldn't have to. Truly professional officers would have quickly ascertained that you posed no threat with zero, or very minimal contact. Even slightly less professional officers should have needed no more than a couple of minutes of your time to determine there was no issue and have you on your way. And neither would have made any demands.

    I'm glad it ended well, but I sure wish it have been a "no contact" kind of event, or at worst, a very brief, semi-informal contact that quickly determined there was no issue.

    Keep up the good work.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Spanish Fork Utah, Utah, USA
    Posts
    193

    Post imported post

    JoeSparky wrote:
    I think part of the confusion has been the necroposting to this 2 year old topic.

    The laws have changed some since 2008!
    Sorry, That would be my fault I like to go through old posts to read whats going on since this forum does not make new topics all that often.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •