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Good encounter with the Utah County Sheriffs

Kevin Jensen

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Feb 23, 2007
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Santaquin, Utah, USA
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My family and I went to the Utah County Fair in Spanish Fork tonight. When we parked there was a volunteer sheriff directing traffic. He saw my wife and I carrying our Glocks, and said "Off Duty?" I replied, "I am always off duty." As soon as I said that, he got on his radio and reported us.

Not a minute later, we were confronted by three Utah County Sheriffs. They asked us why we were carrying sidearms. We answered with the typical "self protection" responses. They informed us that a lot of people called and said that we were causing alarm. I replied that we had just barely arrived, and the only person that could have called so far was the volunteer in the parking lot.

The asked us if we had concealed firearm permits. My wife acknowledged that she had one, and when asked, she presented it. I told them that I may or may not have a permit, and that open carry did not require any permit. After a few minutes of debate, a Sergeant came over to see us.

He said that since we alarmed the volunteer and possibly others, that we could be charged with disorderly conduct. I politely disagreed, and informed the Sergeant that intent was required, and that peaceably carrying a holstered firearm does not constitute disorderly conduct. After some more debate, he got on his cell phone and made a call.

While he was on his phone, one of the three sheriffs informed us that we had a choice to make. We were to either conceal our sidearms, or they would order us to leave the fairgrounds. I told them that I believed they were issuing us an unlawful order, and that our activity was protected by Utah law. They continued to ask us to conceal or leave, and we continued to resist.

A few minutes later, the Sergeant returned. He informed us that he realizes that our activity is completely lawful, but since there were so many families and children around, he asked if would consider concealment. I politely declined his request, and he told us that we were free to go.

Overall, they handled the situation professionally. The encounter took way too long in my opinion. We talked to them for about 15 minutes total. We were never disarmed, or detained. The conversation never got awkward enough for me to ask if I was being detained, so I let the situation play itself out. I have left out a lot of details, but I will post more if anybody cares.
 

Amendment 2

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SGT Jensen wrote:
My family and I went to the Utah County Fair in Spanish Fork tonight.  When we parked there was a volunteer sheriff directing traffic.  He saw my wife and I carrying our Glocks, and said "Off Duty?"  I replied, "I am always off duty."  As soon as I said that, he got on his radio and reported us.

Not a minute later, we were confronted by three Utah County Sheriffs.  They asked us why we were carrying sidearms.  We answered with the typical "self protection" responses.  They informed us that a lot of people called and said that we were causing alarm.  I replied that we had just barely arrived, and the only person that could have called so far was the volunteer in the parking lot.

The asked us if we had concealed firearm permits.  My wife acknowledged that she had one, and when asked, she presented it.  I told them that I may or may not have a permit, and that open carry did not require any permit.  After a few minutes of debate, a Sergeant came over to see us.

He said that since we alarmed the volunteer and possibly others, that we could be charged with disorderly conduct.  I politely disagreed, and informed the Sergeant that intent was required, and that peaceably carrying a holstered firearm does not constitute disorderly conduct.  After some more debate, he got on his cell phone and made a call.

While he was on his phone, one of the three sheriffs informed us that we had a choice to make.  We were to either conceal our sidearms, or they would order us to leave the fairgrounds.  I told them that I believed they were issuing us an unlawful order, and that our activity was protected by Utah law.  They continued to ask us to conceal or leave, and we continued to resist.

A few minutes later, the Sergeant returned.  He informed us that he realizes that our activity is completely lawful, but since there were so many families and children around, he asked if would consider concealment.  I politely declined his request, and he told us that we were free to go. 

Overall, they handled the situation professionally.  The encounter took way too long in my opinion.  We talked to them for about 15 minutes total.  We were never disarmed, or detained.  The conversation never got awkward enough for me to ask if I was being detained, so I let the situation play itself out.  I have left out a lot of details, but I will post more if anybody cares.

So i'm curious do any of these officers ever learn gun laws like this in the P.O.S.T academy. It just boggles my mind only cops think they are allowed to carry firearms. The reason i'm so curious is I plan on attending post very soon and it just blows me away.
 

scorpioajr

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Eagle Mountain, Utah, USA
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SGT Jensen wrote:
....He informed us that he realizes that our activity is completely lawful, but since there were so many families and children around, he asked if would consider concealment. I politely declined his request, and he told us that we were free to go. ....

Way to handle that. Sounds like you turned a potential negative into a delightful experience for both you and the LE. Gj.
 

Kevin Jensen

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Amendment 2 wrote:
So i'm curious do any of these officers ever learn gun laws like this in the P.O.S.T academy. It just boggles my mind only cops think they are allowed to carry firearms. The reason i'm so curious is I plan on attending post very soon and it just blows me away.
I have a friend who recently went through POST and corrections training here in Utah. He told me that they did not spend a lot of time on the issue, but they did teach him that open carry was lawful.
 

Bflamante

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Great point about the intent. I need to remember that. Intent is required for disorderly conduct. Well handled. Good that you didnt back down. Principles are powerful things.
 

schwarzi88

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+10 for big ballz , i honostly think i would have hesitated a lil bit when they asked me to CC or leave ....... i think that i need to brush up on the laws a lil !

just a question .... was the fair by a school .... thats a doozy...... the last fair i went to was in murry for the 4th and that one was by as school so i did CC! Not to mention my car was parked right by the mobil command center ( of america) it was that big and swarming with LEOs!
 

DKSuddeth

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SGT Jensen wrote:
While he was on his phone, one of the three sheriffs informed us that we had a choice to make. We were to either conceal our sidearms, or they would order us to leave the fairgrounds. I told them that I believed they were issuing us an unlawful order, and that our activity was protected by Utah law. They continued to ask us to conceal or leave, and we continued to resist.

Right there would have been me telling said sheriff that HE had a choice to make...

Back up his unlawful order with action so I can sue, or let us be on our way.
 

Kevin Jensen

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This is one of the many parts of my story that I have not included yet.. I did ask him which law required me to conceal my firearm. He said he did not need a law, it was for the safety of everyone at the fair. :shock: I told him that if I did not have a concealed firearm permit, then he is asking me to break the law. They asked me to conceal or leave a number of times, but they never really sounded like they wanted to enforce the order. I am pretty sure they were just trying to intimidate us.
 

Kevin Jensen

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I was carrying fully loaded, and no, they never asked. I was not in a vehicle, or on a public street, I was in a fair park. The whole "Utah unloaded" thing seems to have become a blanket statement, when the law reads pretty clearly.

[font="Arial,Helvetica"] 76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

There is no law that states that you need to produce a permit if you are carrying fully loaded in a vehicle or a public street. Why give up your 5th amendment right if they don't ask? Now if they do know the law and ask if it is loaded, and you are in a vehicle or on a public street, then showing your permit might be in your best interest.
[/font]
 

JoeSparky

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D94R wrote:
While there is no duty to produce a permit for Utah (un)loaded, if you are OCing fully loaded you still must produce the permit if asked for it.
When the statute existed... and it DOES NOT at this moment, the requirement was to "Immediately Identify yourself as a CFP holder if your are CARRYING CONCEALED," during a "terry stop".

There is NO requirement to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are not carrying concealed.

If you are not on a public road or in / on a vehicle you are NOT required to IDENTIFY your self as a CFP holder (LOADED OR UNLOADED) if you are NOT CARRYING concealed.

JoeSparky

Please note....
I did not say that it would NOT be in your best interest (probably) if you are interacting with the officer to let him know that you are carrying ESPECIALLY during a vehicle stop!
 

swillden

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JoeSparky wrote
When the statute existed... and it DOES NOT at this moment, the requirement was to "Immediately Identify yourself as a CFP holder if your are CARRYING CONCEALED," during a "terry stop".

There is NO requirement to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are not carrying concealed.

If you are not on a public road or in / on a vehicle you are NOT required to IDENTIFY your self as a CFP holder (LOADED OR UNLOADED) if you are NOT CARRYING concealed.
Just a few nits, Joe:

First, the rule requiring CFP holders to identify themselves when detained and concealing is a rule, not a statute. You're correct that it momentarily doesn't exist, of course.

Second, the rule, when it existed and as it's expected to be reinstated, makes no distinction between streets, vehicles and other areas. If you're detained (and I think Sgt Jensen was) and you're carrying concealed, you must identify yourself regardless of where you are.

The location matters when it comes to carrying loaded without a permit. It's illegal to carry a loaded gun in a vehicle or on a street without a permit.
 

Kevin Jensen

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First off, I believe this rule was in violation of Utah preemption, so I am glad to see it gone.

[font="Arial,Helvetica"] 76-10-500. Uniform law.
(1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
(a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
(b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
(2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms. [/font]

Second, the rule never stated that you must identify yourself as a permit holder for any reason (i.e. loaded) while carrying openly.
 

JoeSparky

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swillden wrote:
JoeSparky wrote
When the statute existed... and it DOES NOT at this moment, the requirement was to "Immediately Identify yourself as a CFP holder if your are CARRYING CONCEALED," during a "terry stop".

There is NO requirement to identify yourself as a CFP holder if you are not carrying concealed.

If you are not on a public road or in / on a vehicle you are NOT required to IDENTIFY your self as a CFP holder (LOADED OR UNLOADED) if you are NOT CARRYING concealed.
Just a few nits, Joe:

First, the rule requiring CFP holders to identify themselves when detained and concealing is a rule, not a statute. You're correct that it momentarily doesn't exist, of course.

Second, the rule, when it existed and as it's expected to be reinstated, makes no distinction between streets, vehicles and other areas. If you're detained (and I think Sgt Jensen was) and you're carrying concealed, you must identify yourself regardless of where you are.

The location matters when it comes to carrying loaded without a permit. It's illegal to carry a loaded gun in a vehicle or on a street without a permit.

Points taken and accepted...

Keep on keeping me on my toes!:lol:

JoeSparky
 

Porter N

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Ok, now I'm confused.

I was under the impression it was LEGAL in Utah to have a loaded weapon in your car without a permit if you own the car since it's considered your own private property.

Or is that just a concealed weapon and it has to be unloaded if you don't have a permit.
 
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