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Thread: Amelia County CCW application

  1. #1
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Around the first Monday in June, I applied for a CCW in my home county of Amelia. About 3 weeks later, I received a call froma county investigator, named MacDonald. He stated that I had made a mis-statement on my application. When I asked what he meant, he stated that I had a conviction on a firearms brandishing chare back in 1974. I remember the incident, and I was arrested for this, but the way I remembered it I was not convicted the charge was Nul Proced(not sure of spelling). If anyone here wants details of the incident I'll post everything I remember later. Anyhow, Inspector MacDonald was rather vague about this and when I asked if this would keep me from getting a permit, he stated only that I should go to the clerk's office in petersburg, where the incident happened and ask for the :disposition in my case. Accordingly, after voluntarily withdrawing my application, I called the Petersburg Clerk's office to ask who I would have to see to obtain this information. I was told that they do not keep records more than 10 years and I would have to contact the Va State police to get this information. One week ago, I submitted a Criminal records check on myself. Yesterday, it came back with the "no conviction Data-does not preclude an arrest record" box checked.Yesterday, I tried twice to contact Inspector MacDonald to ask where he got his information, and how I could obtain it for myself. In my calls, I was very polite and made it clear that I was concerned about this because, since the Virginia Aplication only asks about misdemeanor convictions within the last 5 years, and only a felony conviction from 34 years ago would be required to be listed. So far they have not returned my calls. This morning, I sent out two emails. The first to the VCDL detailing what has happened so far and the second to the Va State Police Criminal Records division asking 3 questions. The first, would a conviction from 34 years ago show up on a background check. Second, What does "no conviction Data...." mean, and last, Does Inspector MacDonald have access to a dadt base concerning me which I can not access. I received the following back from the Va State Police:

    From: "Taylor, Stanley E." <Stanley.Taylor@vsp.virginia.gov> Add sender to Contacts To: jaf_deg6@yahoo.com if (typeof YAHOO == "undefined") { var YAHOO = {}; } No Conviction Data Found-Does Not Preclude the Existence of Arrest Recordu0022.


    It means based on the information you provided on your If you have request and received a background from VSP and it states "No
    Conviction Data Found-Does Not Preclude the Existence of Arrest Record".
    It means based on the information you provided on your request, you have
    not been convicted of any criminal Code violation in the State of
    Virginia. We maintain criminal records on all individuals since their
    18th birthday regardless of how long ago the conviction was. You should
    be able to attach a copy of your background check to your permit
    request.

    Stanley E. Taylor
    Office Services Supervisor, Sr.
    Phone: (804) 674-6718
    Fax: (804) 674-8530


    -----Original Message-----
    From: jerry [mailto:jaf_deg6@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:24 AM
    To: Taylor, Stanley E.
    Subject: Background check results

    Around June 2nd of this year, I applied for a concealed carry permit in
    Amelia county. A couple of weeks later an investigator from the Amelia
    sheriff's office called me and stated that I had made a misstatement on
    my application. When I asked what he meant, he replied that I had
    checked the "no conviction" block in question 8 and that I had a
    conviction in 1974. My answer was "I did?" He then said I should
    voluntarily withdraw my application, which I did. He was very vague when
    I asked if re-submitting my application with what he said was the
    correct information would result in the permit being denied. He would
    only say that I should go to the Petersburg courthouse to get the
    disposition of the case before re-submitting my application. I called
    the Petersburg Clerk of the court's office to ask who I would have to
    see about getting that information and was informed that they only kept
    records for 10 years and I would have to go to the State Police to
    get anything beyond 10 years. Accordingly I submitted a request to you
    for a Criminal Records check on myself. It came back with the "no
    conviction data" box checked. I have some questions about the background
    check. First, Does your records check include convictions as far back as
    1974? Secondly, would a county investigator have access to records which
    I can't get?, and last, does"no conviction data" mean that I have no
    convictions in Virginia? One other thing, it was my understanding that
    the Amelia investigator stated that it was a misdemeanor conviction.
    This, since it was 34 years, ago would not be required to be listed on
    the CCW application anyhow.

    I realize that this is an open carry forum, but in a way it concerns my rights to open carry, or for that matter, even own a firearm. If Inspector MacDonald has something saying I was convicted of a Felony, I would be breaking the law to carry my gun openly,or for that matter even own a firearm. and in fact, if this is the case, I have violated the law at least 6 times by purchasing handguns and rifles. I mention the felony part because a 34 year old misdemeanor conviction is not required to be listed on my application. Has anyone run into anything like this in Virginia?
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    First, welcome to OCDO.

    Second, it seems that you have answered your own question about
    what no conviction Data...."
    means.

    And last, the answer to your question
    Does Inspector MacDonald have access to a dadt base concerning me which I can not access
    may not be as simple as you might think. Yes, law enforcement has access to databases you, as a non-sworn law enforcement,plain old ciivillian citizen, cannot access. But that is not a problem for you regarding your CHP application.

    Your case was "nolle pross-ed". Fromhttp://www.lectlaw.com/def2/n061.htm :
    NOLLE PROSEQUI - An entry made on the record, by which the prosecutor or plaintiff declares that he will proceed no further.

    A nolle prosequi may be entered either in a criminal or a civil case. In criminal cases, a nolle prosequi may be entered at any time before the finding of the grand jury, by the attorney general, and generally after a true bill has been found; in Pennsylvania, in consequence of a statutory provision, no nolle prosequi can be entered after a bill has been found, without leave of the court, except in cases of assault and battery, fornication and bastardy, on agreement between the parties, or in prosecutions for keeping tippling houses.

    A nolle prosequi may be entered as to one or several defendants. The effect of a nolle prosequi, when obtained, is to put the defendant without day, but it does not operate as an acquittal; for he may be afterwards reindicted, and even upon the same indictment, fresh process may be awarded.
    Criminal defendants who are facing a "nolle pross" decision would be better served, IMNSHO, by seeking to have the charge dismissed with prejudice - meaning the court finds that the case should not be prosecuted (tried) and the charge cannot be brought up again at some later date. Historically, it is extremely difficult to get a lawyer to argue for such a ruling, and even rarer for a judge to actually dismiss with prejudice. Again, IMNSHO, this is because a "nolle pross" decision is the down-and-dirty quick way to get the case over with.

    Sorry for the length of the response, but "information is king" and you had a lot of ground to cover.

    Resubmit your CHP application. If for some reason it is not approved request an ore tenus hearing before the Circuit Court judge. That's when you explain to the judge why you should get your CHP in spite of some Inspector saying you have a prior felony conviction that the State POlice records show you do not have. The Clerk of the Court can assist you with that process if you need to go that far.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
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    I don't know if this info will help but I had a speedbump in getting my permit in Spotsylvania County.

    I submitted the paper work and waited. After about 40 days I got a letter in the mail saying that my permit had been denied because a protective order had been issued against me in Colorado.

    I had never so much as flown over the state of Colorado and I am also not the kind of guy that would require a protective order to get me to leave you alone. I called the Spotsylvania County clerk and asked them about it. They looked it up and said that the protective order was out of ?Little Rock?, Colorado ( I don't remember exactly but it was Rock something). Next, I called the county clerk in Colorado. I gave them my information and they said that there were no records of any kind with my name, b/d, ssn, and that I could request a copy if I wanted (for $5). I told them no thanks, but I may in the future (for the appeal).

    I then called back the Spotsylvania County Clerk. They said that the record may have come up when the State Police checked my record, so I called State Police. The State Police told me that it would not have been their search because they only search within the state of Virginiaand that the Sheriff's Department was responsible for the nationwide search. I called the County Clerk back, yetagain, to give them the news and they said they would check with the Sheriff's Department and get back to me.

    The next day I had a voice-mail from the County Clerk asking me to call. When I called back they told me that they had found the problem. When the Sheriff's Department does the nationwide search they first search for aliases and like names. Someone in Colorado with an alias or like name of mine had a protective order against them. When they get a hit like this, the Sheriff's Department then runs the hit against your b/d, ssn. In this case it came back that it wasn't me. However, the judge that read my paperwork for my permit misread the part about the b/d and ssn not matching and denied my permit. The County Clerk's Office, Sheriff's Department, and judge had it sorted out in 2 days and I was able to pick up my permit. I was rather impressed by how fast they fixed it and the amount of cooperation I received.



    IMHO what you should do.

    1.Collect evidence of the conviction (or lack thereof)

    2. Apply for your permit and allow the process to come full-circle (45 days)

    3. If you are denied, file an appeal and bring your paperwork showing that you are eligible to have a CHP.

    I know it sucks that you have to jump through the hoops but you don't get much of a choice. In this situation its best to beat them at their own game.




  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Well , good work getting it straight.

    The one thing that perplexes me is why was he looking at a 1974 brandishing case in the first place? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but even if convicted, it would NOT prevent you from getting the permit.

  5. #5
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    In reference to the "nolle pross-ed". part, I am not exactly sure this is what happened in court. It was 34 years ago, and at age 65, my memory is not the best anymore. In my memory, what happened was that the judge said that if I did not have any more legal issues for a set period of time, no further action woluld be taken. As for the incident being a felony, I do not think it was. I brought up that issue because the Virginia application does not require disclosing any misdemeanors unless there have been two convictions within the 5 years prior to the application being submitted. The only conviction for which not reporting it after 34 years would be "making a false statement" would be a felony conviction., therefore leaving a 34 year old misdemeanor conviction off the application would not constitute making a false statement on the application. Besides, the Va State Police say that I have no convictions on my record.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Well, glad it worked out. I sure wouldn't compliment the judge or anyone else in that fiasco....

  7. #7
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Peter, this is exactly my point. In retrospect, I should have agreed to ask that he not process my original application, and second, I should have asked to see what information he had found to say I was ever convicted of the offence in the first place. I did try to obtain this information when I hand carriee the letter asking for the application to not be processed, but was told "Inspector MacDonald is on the road right now, leave your phone number and he will call you. That was June, and I am still waiting for that call as well as the one I was told I'd get yesterday. AS for the whole brandishing thing, I am not sure that what I did couldn't have been looked at as "open carry" I am not totally familiar with the open carry law yet, so is open carry restricted to only handguns? I never threatened the other multiple parties, and my shotgun was kept pointed in the air. Still, they sped off and obtained a warrant.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    celticredneck wrote:
    Peter, this is exactly my point. In retrospect, I should have agreed to ask that he not process my original application, and second, I should have asked to see what information he had found to say I was ever convicted of the offence in the first place. I did try to obtain this information when I hand carriee the letter asking for the application to not be processed, but was told "Inspector MacDonald is on the road right now, leave your phone number and he will call you. That was June, and I am still waiting for that call as well as the one I was told I'd get yesterday. AS for the whole brandishing thing, I am not sure that what I did couldn't have been looked at as "open carry" I am not totally familiar with the open carry law yet, so is open carry restricted to only handguns? I never threatened the other multiple parties, and my shotgun was kept pointed in the air. Still, they sped off and obtained a warrant.
    It's really very easy to get a warrant for brandishing in a lot of areas. I saw a gun and was frightened, will do it.

    Further, in some areas, people were charged with brandishing for having long guns in visible racks. The fear of lawsuits have setteled them down some.

  9. #9
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    celticredneck,

    When you were arrested back in 74 fingerprints were taken, most likely twice. One was submitted to the FBI and the other to the Virginia State Police. Both were records of your arrest. If a conviction was obtained it is up to the courts to update the information. If no conviction, you get exactly what you got. The arrest can be expunged and you will need a lawyer to do that. It is a simple procedure.

    There are records at the Court House and I can tell you how to research the Docket. That to is very simple.

    If you have not done so you should request from the Virginia State Police a copy of your record(s). That will include arrests and convictions in Virginia only.

    This should also serves as a "heads up" to others who may have an arrest but no conviction. Check the records first. It will save some headaches in the long run.

  10. #10
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Kenny, I did pay a $15.00 fee to have the Va State Police run a criminal records search on myself. This is what came back:

    "no conviction data-does not preclude arrest record"

    I emailed the Va State Police to ask them to clarify exactly what that means and I received this reply from Stanley Taylor of the Va State Police:

    It means based on the information you provided on your If you have request and received a background from VSP and it states "No
    Conviction Data Found-Does Not Preclude the Existence of Arrest Record".
    It means based on the information you provided on your request, you have
    not been convicted of any criminal Code violation in the State of
    Virginia. We maintain criminal records on all individuals since their
    18th birthday regardless of how long ago the conviction was. You should
    be able to attach a copy of your background check to your permit
    request. The information I provided to VSP for the check included my full name as well as my SSN, so this should have prevented any confusion with another person with a similar name or alias.

    AS for the courts, I went there before I had VSP run a records check and I was told, "The court does not maintain any records after 10 years, After that it is all kept by the State Police."
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

  11. #11
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    The Court does keep records. They are called Docket Books. They record everything from criminal to civil to real estate transactions. Was the charge Nol Prosse in what is now call General District Court (misdermeanor charge) or in Circuit Court (felony charges). There is a record in one of those books somwhere.

    Perhap you should seek advice of a local attorney who will do the research for you. But you can do it yourself. You need to pin down a time frame such as month and year.

    You can't email any body to do a manual search. It has to be done by hand and you have the right to do it yourself, you just have to know what to look for and ask for.

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