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Thread: Declaration of Independence

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    Got a link?

    Its an original COPY that was circulated and read to 'the people', right?
    http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_10191347


    "The copy of the Declaration of Independence will be on display at the Utah State Capitol on Friday and Saturday. The event opens with a press conference at 10 a.m. on Friday and is open until 5 p.m. It is open 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Saturday. The display is free and open to the public."

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    33itmefs wrote:
    ....she said I cant take my gun.....that is wrong on so many levels.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    33itmefs wrote:
    My wife just stated the obvious, its at the Capitol, she said I cant take my gun.....that is wrong on so many levels.
    I would love to see this important piece of history, and have yet to open carry in the capitol rotunda, so I just might go!
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    33itmefs wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    33itmefs wrote:
    My wife just stated the obvious, its at the Capitol, she said I cant take my gun.....that is wrong on so many levels.
    I would love to see this important piece of history, and have yet to open carry in the capitol rotunda, so I just might go!
    Stupid question, are you saying I could carry concealed there? Isnt it a state Capitol patrolled by UHP and so its off limits to guns due to legislature and being on the same "level" as courts and whatnot? Or am I way off base?

    ***edit, I confirmed with UHP special detail, 538-1111, firearms are prohibited and this is not one of those that is up to interpretation or debate. :P***
    538-111 ? Can we get a link to the law or a hefty cite?


    cause it just looks like a phone number to me:

    http://des.utah.gov/highwaypatrol/of...ortection.html

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I am not sure if you are kidding or not, the :P makes me believe that you are.

    Just in case though... Carrying in the capitol, openly or concealed (with permit, of course) is perfectly lawful. If the Utah Highway Patrol tells you otherwise, they are wrong.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    33itmefs wrote:
    Stupid question, are you saying I could carry concealed there? Isnt it a state Capitol patrolled by UHP and so its off limits to guns due to legislature and being on the same "level" as courts and whatnot? Or am I way off base?
    Just because something is patrolled by the Utah Highway Patrol, does not make it off limits like a courthouse.
    Even courthouses and police stations are not off limits, just the secured areas of those buildings.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    33itmefs wrote:
    Stupid question, are you saying I could carry concealed there? Isnt it a state Capitol patrolled by UHP and so its off limits to guns due to legislature and being on the same "level" as courts and whatnot? Or am I way off base?
    Even courthouses and police stations are not off limits,
    For Permit Holders only, correct?

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    33itmefs wrote:
    My wife just stated the obvious, its at the Capitol, she said I cant take my gun.....that is wrong on so many levels.
    Your wife is in error.

    It is perfectly legal to carry (openly, or with a permit concealed) at the capital. I have done it many times, including OC.

    The docents and highway patrol who provide security there are HIGHLY professional, know the laws, and are very unlikely to even contact, much less hassle you.

    You will NOT find the State capital in the list of prohibited places for possession of a gun anywhere in State code.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Even courthouses and police stations are not off limits,
    For Permit Holders only, correct?
    No, treat them as you would the airport. You can carry all the way up to the metal detectors. Now some courthouses and police stations will not have metal detectors, so make sure you are aware of where the sterile area begins. Per Utah law, they may not designate the entire building as a secure facility, only a portion of it.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Even courthouses and police stations are not off limits,
    For Permit Holders only, correct?
    ...Now some courthouses and police stations will not have metal detectors, so make sure you are aware of where the sterile area begins....
    And if they have metal detectors, a permit-less OCer would have to relinquish his/her sidearm for lockup in said 'secure zone' or would he/she be asked to leave?

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    A concealed firearm permit will not get you into the secured area, you will still need to check your firearm. You do not need a permit to open carry in the regular part of the building. That being said, not a facilities are complying with Utah law. They are required to have safe storage for your checked firearm, but places like the Utah County Courthouse in Provo do not. They will ask you to leave.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    78A-2-203. Rules -- Right to make -- Limitation -- Security.
    (1) Every court of record may make rules, not inconsistent with law, for its own government and the government of its officers; but such rules must neither impose any tax or charge upon any legal proceeding nor give any allowance to any officer for service.
    (2) (a) The judicial council may provide, through the rules of judicial administration, for security in or about a courthouse or courtroom, or establish a secure area as prescribed in Section 76-8-311.1.
    (b) (i) If the council establishes a secure area under Subsection (2)(a), it shall provide a secure firearms storage area on site so that persons with lawfully carried firearms may store them while they are in the secure area.
    (ii) The entity operating the facility with the secure area shall be responsible for the firearms while they are stored in the storage area referred to in Subsection (2)(b)(i).
    (iii) The entity may not charge a fee to individuals for storage of their firearms under Subsection (2)(b)(i).

    (3) (a) Unless authorized by the rules of judicial administration, any person who knowingly or intentionally possesses a firearm, ammunition, or dangerous weapon within a secure area established by the judicial council under this section is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) Any person is guilty of violating Section 76-10-306 who transports, possesses, distributes, or sells an explosive, chemical, or incendiary device, as defined by Section 76-10-306, within a secure area, established by the Judicial Council under this section.


    76-8-311.1. Secure areas -- Items prohibited -- Penalty.
    (1) In addition to the definitions in Section 76-10-501, as used in this section:
    (a) "Correctional facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 76-8-311.3.
    (b) "Explosive" has the same meaning as defined for "explosive, chemical, or incendiary device" defined in Section 76-10-306.
    (c) "Law enforcement facility" means a facility which is owned, leased, or operated by a law enforcement agency.
    (d) "Mental health facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 62A-15-602.
    (e) (i) "Secure area" means any area into which certain persons are restricted from transporting any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
    (ii) A "secure area" may not include any area normally accessible to the public.

    (2) (a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
    (b) Subsections (2)(a), (3), (4), (5), and (6) apply to higher education secure area hearing rooms referred to in Subsections 53B-3-103(2)(a)(ii) and (b).
    (3) At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to an area in which a firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive is restricted.
    (4) (a) Provisions shall be made to provide a secure weapons storage area so that persons entering the secure area may store their weapons prior to entering the secure area.
    (b) The entity operating the facility shall be responsible for weapons while they are stored in the storage area.
    (5) It is a defense to any prosecution under this section that the accused, in committing the act made criminal by this section, acted in conformity with the facility's rule or policy established pursuant to this section.
    (6) (a) Any person who knowingly or intentionally transports into a secure area of a facility any firearm, ammunition, or dangerous weapon is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) Any person violates Section 76-10-306 who knowingly or intentionally transports, possesses, distributes, or sells any explosive in a secure area of a facility.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    It is usually those who no nothing about the law that are "the experts". Take my mom for example... Not long ago, I was talking to her about somebody I ran into at the bank. She asked me if I open carried my Glock into the bank. When I told her that I did, she freaked!! "You are lucky they did not call the cops on you! Don't you know that guns are illegal in the bank?!?!?" She was even more surprised when I showed her pictures of us carrying with the police at Utah Valley University. I love Utah!
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I'll be heading down after work.

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    packingmama and I will be there around 4:00. See you there.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    33itmefs wrote:
    I am so thoroughly disgusted and disillusioned that only 3 or 4 of you responded to this post. I didnt see one OCer there in my 5 or 6 hours there, and trust me I looked. This document set us apart as a nation. It is one of the things you guys continuously spout about and partially refer to with your rights. For me, seeing it was a spiritual experience as well as an intellectual one. For those of you who went, please post that you did. And I do not lump you in the group I am talking about next, Ihold you in high esteem. For anyone else who did not, I lost all respect for you, this board and this movement. If you didnt make the time to go, you should not have the privilege to use the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence or any other historical document to back up your sill little OC fantasy. Hows this for "educating", those of you who didnt go, are ignorant imbeciles who dont appreciate what you use. I equate you to smarmy politicians who say what everyone wantsto hear, but once you make your point, you lie and backspin your way out of it,How about you start OCing the Bill of Rights at your next meet-up, maybe you can sway your comrades into being more than just little OC lemmings, really practicing what you preach. Ireally was behind your movement, just not how it was executed. Now I am not for you individuals. Shame on you, for you have spit on your country. Hows that for education UTAH OCers?
    I'm sorry you feel that way 33. Some of us could not make it for personal reasons. I have been hosting company all week and got stuck with the kids all night. I work swing shift during the week too. Since you have lost respect for us, what now?

    I thought the bible said not to judge people, lest you be judged yourself. I know you might have been emotional when you wrote this statement, but it seems a little agressive and puts a blanketed statement of judgement on everyone on the forum who didn't go.

    Do you really think the OC movement is in peril because "everybody" didn't go to see the declaration? Did you not post your thread about it on the last night it was here? Maybe very few people even knew about it. Not everybody is glued to the nightly news or reads the paper. I think everyone here appreciates and respects and loves the Declaration of Independance. Just because everyone did not go and lay eyes upon a copy of this historical document does not mean that they should not have the "right", not "privilage", tohave protection under theBill of Rights. Even illegal aliens who come here and break Federal law are protected under it.

    If you believe that this movement is a "silly little fantasy" for us, then your statement, in its current context, leads me to believe that you did not and/or do not believe that the movement had or has a chance, and therefore, you had and/or have no intent to contribute to any future possibilitiesof anysuccess of this movement whatsoever.

    Why have you lowered yourself to comparing us with politicians? Not all politicians are the way you stated either. We rely on those politicians to represent our cause. We elected them. I would challenge you to find somebody on this forum who "lied and told somebody one thing and then backspinned their way out of it". by twisting their intent in the other direction.

    You had plenty of excuses for not going to the OC meet in Sugarhouse. Personally, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and just accepted what you said as fact. I saw that others called you out and said you were just making excuses. I didn't judge you. I believe your reasons were fact as you stated, and I never questioned you or judged you or had anyreason whatsoever to believe that you were not telling the truth.

    I'm sure there were plenty of usthat would have loved to makeit to see the document, but short notice and personal obligations were surely the cause of why so many others may not have made it. It is impossiblefor you or I toknow all of the circumstances and reasons behind why somebody did or did not make it.

    In conclusion, I would just urge you to please not be so harsh in your words toward others. You have made it known how you feel, but I really do hope that what you said, and the way you said it, is not really how you feel about us or our movement. How are we supposed to respect you when you make posts like this?

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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