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Thread: oc vs cc technicalities

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    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    1. If you don't have a holster and just tuck gunbetween your shirt and pants, is it considered oc or cc?

    2. Same question if your shirt tail isn't long enough to cover the end of your holster...

    3. If I like to wear my shirts untucked, how do I open carry? A shoulder rig over my shirt? Just tuck in the part of shirt behind the holster?(that would look dorky)

    4. If you have go to a store that has a no guns policy, do you not carry or just cc anyway?

    thanks

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    1. Not a smart way to carry. The OC/CC would depend on if any of the pistol is visible.

    2. Again depends on if any part of the pistol is visible.

    3. Tuck your shirt under the holster.

    4. The signs have no legal authority. If I must go into store that is posted the I conceal.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    So 1 would beOC because you could see part of the pistol and 2 would be CC because you can't see part of the pistol just the end of the holster?(assuming an enclosed holster)

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    Yes. If the pistol is not visible at all it is considered concealed. If any portion of the pistol is visible it is considered unconcealed.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    trevorthebusdriver wrote:
    1. If you don't have a holster and just tuck gunbetween your shirt and pants, is it considered oc or cc? It depends on if the gun is visible or not. I think it would be unsafe and also the gun could fall and move around on you. Also you would look like a BG

    2. Same question if your shirt tail isn't long enough to cover the end of your holster...Get a longershirt 3. If I like to wear my shirts untucked, how do I open carry? A shoulder rig over my shirt? Just tuck in the part of shirt behind the holster?(that would look dorky)I just place my shirt behind my gun, but I make sure I can draw quickly and smooth if I had to, the clothing can sometimes hinder my drawing
    4. If you have go to a store that has a no guns policy, do you not carry or just cc anyway? I have OC in these places, or just CC

    thanks

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    There is no law or requirement that you must completely CC or OC. But you best have a CPL if the gun is concealed, even partially. You need a CPL to carry in your car anyway, so you should have one anyway.

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    Having my gun "partially" concealed is a gray area that I have no interest in exploring (even though I have all bases covered with my CPL). All out, or all in for me except in rare circumstances that can't be helped. Get shirts that are long enough to conceal when untucked or short enough to not look horribly dorky when only the material behind the gun is tucked.

    Carrying a pistol and being fashion conscious will limit your options. I don't have anyone to impress with my wardrobe so, in the event of a conflict, fashion loses.

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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    joeroket wrote:
    If any portion of the pistol is visible it is considered unconcealed.
    Warning! I asked this question of a LEO friend a while back and he said "if any portion of the firearm is obscured it's considered concealed". He specifically mentioned covering it up with your arm at your side.

    The description of "concealed" is not given in the law, so best to play it safe. If the entire pistol and holster are not plainly visible, consider it concealed. LEOs will tend (as demonstrated above) to interpret "concealed" as broadly as possible.

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    Warning! I asked this question of a LEO friend a while back and he said "if any portion of the firearm is obscured it's considered concealed".

    That would mean all open carry in a holster would be considered concealed. Ask him to define open carry that does not meet his definition of concealed.

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    John Hardin wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    If any portion of the pistol is visible it is considered unconcealed.
    Warning! I asked this question of a LEO friend a while back and he said "if any portion of the firearm is obscured it's considered concealed". He specifically mentioned covering it up with your arm at your side.

    The description of "concealed" is not given in the law, so best to play it safe. If the entire pistol and holster are not plainly visible, consider it concealed. LEOs will tend (as demonstrated above) to interpret "concealed" as broadly as possible.
    I call BS. This would imply that OC with an IWB is illegal without a permit.

    I agree with playing it safe as, like you said, concealed is not defined and by its own definition if it is not visible then it is concealed. Concealed is synonomous with hidden.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:

    4. The signs have no legal authority. If I must go into store that is posted the I conceal.
    Regardless if I like it or not, it's private property, and they're allowed to make their own rules. I respect them, and either shop elsewhere, or leave it in the car.

    It's not "illegal" (you could be trespassed if confronted and don't leave....), but it's the right thing to do. You want people to respect your rights, correct? Then respect their rights too; they have the right to say they don't want a firearm on their property.

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    Check out the Elensburg v. Fishorman case. He had a 1911 tucked into his pants (with the hammer back, which was a dumb idea if you ask me) and was convicted under a city statute that was overturned due to a technicality with pre-emption. The judge said however, that had he been charged under 9.41.270 (the 'display a weapon in a way... that warrants alarm for the safety of others') that he probably would have been convicted.
    According to the law, the "furtively carry, with intent to conceal" means, as far I any rationale person could interpret it, that the carry must be "furtive," meaning "secretly, slyly, hidden" and with intent to conceal. You could argue intent in court, but if it's in plain sight, they're gonna have a tough case proving intent to conceal, and you could easily challenge probable cause at the preliminary hearing.

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    cynicist wrote:
    Check out the Elensburg v. Fishorman case. He had a 1911 tucked into his pants (with the hammer back, which was a dumb idea if you ask me) and was convicted under a city statute that was overturned due to a technicality with pre-emption. The judge said however, that had he been charged under 9.41.270 (the 'display a weapon in a way... that warrants alarm for the safety of others') that he probably would have been convicted.
    According to the law, the "furtively carry, with intent to conceal" means, as far I any rationale person could interpret it, that the carry must be "furtive," meaning "secretly, slyly, hidden" and with intent to conceal. You could argue intent in court, but if it's in plain sight, they're gonna have a tough case proving intent to conceal, and you could easily challenge probable cause at the preliminary hearing.
    And again the judge would have been wrong. You don't know much about 1911s do you? Standard operating proceedure with a 1911 is one in the pipe, cocked and locked. There are 3 safetys between that condition and the gun going boom.

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    jddssc121 wrote:
    joeroket wrote:

    4. The signs have no legal authority. If I must go into store that is posted the I conceal.
    Regardless if I like it or not, it's private property, and they're allowed to make their own rules. I respect them, and either shop elsewhere, or leave it in the car.

    It's not "illegal" (you could be trespassed if confronted and don't leave....), but it's the right thing to do. You want people to respect your rights, correct? Then respect their rights too; they have the right to say they don't want a firearm on their property.
    You're right I can be asked to leave. If they ask then I will and will not return. The point is that the sign itself carries no legal weight.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I agree with Bear. The 1911 was designed to carry cocked and locked. I wouldnt carry it any other way as the response time to slide one in the chamber ( if you have both hands free ) would make you "to late the party". Always use a tool the way it was designed and feel comfortable in your weapon of choice.

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    I was unaware of that. I don't have a 1911, and I assume the judge doesn't either.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    I've wondered these things as well. I have a supertuck that is comfortable as hell but I like having the grip on my pistol exposed. Mainly because I put grip tape on my pistol and sandpaper on the love handles hurts.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    Triple Tap wrote:
    I agree with Bear. The 1911 was designed to carry cocked and locked. I wouldnt carry it any other way as the response time to slide one in the chamber ( if you have both hands free ) would make you "to late the party". Always use a tool the way it was designed and feel comfortable in your weapon of choice.
    Well, you can carry the 1911 with a round in the chamber and hammer down, as the firing pin will not reach the primer. Then allyou have to do is cock the hammer back with your thumb as you draw. But the fastest and best way is cocked and locked and thumb down the manual safety as you draw, since it is right under your right thumb. I never have figured out why the US Military did not listen to John M. Brownings instructions on how to operate his pistol. But then we are speaking of the US military.

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    gsx1138 wrote:
    I've wondered these things as well. I have a supertuck that is comfortable as hell but I like having the grip on my pistol exposed. Mainly because I put grip tape on my pistol and sandpaper on the love handles hurts.
    Ok, this is to easy to pass up..........aaaah can you say diet and exercise?

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    gsx1138 wrote:
    I've wondered these things as well. I have a supertuck that is comfortable as hell but I like having the grip on my pistol exposed. Mainly because I put grip tape on my pistol and sandpaper on the love handles hurts.
    Ok, this is to easy to pass up..........aaaah can you say diet and exercise?
    Oh, I can say it all day. It's the actual doing it that's the problem. :P
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    gsx1138 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    gsx1138 wrote:
    I've wondered these things as well. I have a supertuck that is comfortable as hell but I like having the grip on my pistol exposed. Mainly because I put grip tape on my pistol and sandpaper on the love handles hurts.
    Ok, this is to easy to pass up..........aaaah can you say diet and exercise?
    Oh, I can say it all day. It's the actual doing it that's the problem. :P
    Aint that the truth. I've been threatened with death if I don't loose some pounds. So 30 pounds later and I'm still to heavy (fat is such and ugly word), but the fight goes on. Old and fat are such a bad combination. As my mother in law say,

    "Old is not for sissies!'

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    joeroket wrote:
    jddssc121 wrote:
    joeroket wrote:

    4. The signs have no legal authority. If I must go into store that is posted the I conceal.
    Regardless if I like it or not, it's private property, and they're allowed to make their own rules. I respect them, and either shop elsewhere, or leave it in the car.

    It's not "illegal" (you could be trespassed if confronted and don't leave....), but it's the right thing to do. You want people to respect your rights, correct? Then respect their rights too; they have the right to say they don't want a firearm on their property.
    You're right I can be asked to leave. If they ask then I will and will not return. The point is that the sign itself carries no legal weight.
    my point is not if it's legal or not. my point is to have some respect. It's a two way street. You want them to respect your right to carry, but won't respect their right to have their private property operate as they see fit. Amazingly hypocritical in my book.

    It doesn't matter if you like it or not, if you see a sign that says "no firearms" you should respect their wishes or leave. Not sneak it in and pat yourself on the back....

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    jddssc121 wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    jddssc121 wrote:
    joeroket wrote:

    4. The signs have no legal authority. If I must go into store that is posted the I conceal.
    Regardless if I like it or not, it's private property, and they're allowed to make their own rules. I respect them, and either shop elsewhere, or leave it in the car.

    It's not "illegal" (you could be trespassed if confronted and don't leave....), but it's the right thing to do. You want people to respect your rights, correct? Then respect their rights too; they have the right to say they don't want a firearm on their property.
    You're right I can be asked to leave. If they ask then I will and will not return. The point is that the sign itself carries no legal weight.
    my point is not if it's legal or not. my point is to have some respect. It's a two way street. You want them to respect your right to carry, but won't respect their right to have their private property operate as they see fit. Amazingly hypocritical in my book.

    It doesn't matter if you like it or not, if you see a sign that says "no firearms" you should respect their wishes or leave. Not sneak it in and pat yourself on the back....
    You have the right to not go in armed and I have the right to go in armed. When the law gives signs authority I will abide by them. My family's safety is more important than a non-legal binding sign.

    I say we agree to disagree. Everyone has thier own way and it is often that people do not see eye to eye.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    You have the right to not go in armed and I have the right to go in armed. When the law gives signs authority I will abide by them. My family's safety is more important than a non-legal binding sign.

    I say we agree to disagree. Everyone has thier own way and it is often that people do not see eye to eye.
    So "Respect me, but i won't respect you"...?

    not a very even argument....you're still missing my point . I'm not talking about what's legal, I'm talking about some mutual respect for one another. Respect their right to makes their rules as they see fit....nobody is forcing you to shop there....

    anyhow, we've probably hijacked this thread enough....I guess you're entitled to one more post back to keep it even but i'll stop replying



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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    Well, you can carry the 1911 with a round in the chamber and hammer down, as the firing pin will not reach the primer.
    Although my recollection was that the 1911, according to Browning, was safer cocked and locked than with the hammer on the pin. A drop will not unlock and fire the pistol but a drop can hit the hammer and pin combo and lead to a fire.

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