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Thread: .40 Cal = 7 cops in an open carry state.

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    I am stationed atHolloman AFBin Alamogordo NM.I open carry as much as possible. I have a Walther P99QA .40 as my concealed/open carry weapon. I was at the theater watching a movie with a buddyand the movie was just about to start whenI see 7 police officers come into the theater and start looking for someone/something. The manager of the theater was over by the door also scanning the crowd for something. He looked at me and pointed in my direction and the police officers converged on me.

    They asked me if I was armed and I told them that yes I was. They told me to keep my hands where they could see them and stand up. I complied. Next thing I know I had an officer on each of my arms each with a wrist lock. They pulled my out of the theater and then proceded to try to remove the gun from it's holster (a regular phobus paddle holster), I told them, "Just pull up on it" and they finally where able to remove it (I'm not sure why it was so difficult for them). Anyway, I told them, "there is one in the chamber, please be careful" and the police officer with the weapon has to hand the weapon to one of his buddies to assist him with clearing it and dropping the magazine (it's just a p99... its really easy). The cop then takes my ID from my wallet and they release me but put me face to the wall and search me fully then turn me back around.

    The cop on my left asks me why I am carrying a handgun in public. I respond "because it's my right to". Man did he not like that at all.. he ended up repeating that question to me about 10 more times with the same response while the officer next to him asked me 1.If I thought I was going to get into a shoot out in broad daylight. 2. Did I realize that there where children present at the theater. 3. What happens if one of them run up to me and try to take it from me and someone gets hurt. 4. (and my favorite) What if someone got mad at someone else in the theater and wanted to shoot them so they took my gun and killed someone else with it. 5. How would that make me feel. So I told him "Nope, I don't expect to get into a shoot out. Yes I realize that there are childeren in the theater and no I don't think that there will be an issue with one of them coming and taking it from me to play with it. You guys had enough issues getting it outta the holster in the first place. And if someone wants to some into the theater and shoot someone, they are gonna bring thier own gun, they arn't gonna bank on the hope of someone being there with one already that they can hopefully take and use. They will probably hope that nobody has one because it would turn into a bad day for them."The police of course didn't enjoy any of this, but to be honestI wasn't really enjoying myself much at the moment either and I was getting sort of pissed off after the 10th time that the cop to my left asks me "so, uh, why do you have a gun on you?". At that point, the cop who was running my ID (I'm active military in the USAF and thats the ID they where running) came back and said that everything was clean. I asked him what I had done wrong since I was fully within my right to carry in that theater. They ignored that question and he then asked me "so if I called your first sergeant right now, what would he say?". He was trying to intimidate me now I guess. I told him, "call him up, I'll give you the phone number". He declined the offer.

    They said that the manager of the movie theater had called them and that just because I was there with a weapon on my hip in plain veiw, he considered it a threat and they had to respond. Then they asked me why I was irritated, didn't I expect stuff like this to happen if I was going to open carry in public. At this point I just held my tongue, I was pretty irate. They said that as long as the side arm was on me the manager of the theater was refusing me service and I had to leave the property. I said ok, fine, gimme my gun back and I'll put it in the truck so I can watch the damn movie. They said no they would put it into my truck for me, like it made any difference. Anyway longer story short, they follow me to my truck and made sure I stowed it out of sight inside the vehicle and then let me go. This is some seriously annoying stuff, I know all the gun laws for the states that I'm stationed in and the laws for the states that border the states that I'm stationed in. I stay educated cause its a responsibility of everyone to do so, everyone apparently but police. They didn't even have a clue that NM was an open carry state until they called the dispatch after I informed them of it. WOW. Does it get any better than this?


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    :shock:

    Uh, damn. Never heard of anything this heinous happening in New Mexico. And they're "gold star" on our map largely because the police are supposed to be well-educated about the pre-emption of open carry.

    Not to hijack this thread, but I notice a common thread grouping most of the encounterswhere the police were hard---es about it, and encounters that were handled more cordiallyeven if the person was required to leave. That common thread is the tone, or perceived tone, of the person who brought the OC to the officers' attention, and the fact that the officers generally mirror the tone of the complainant.

    Case in point; the manager of the theater saw you OCing and was alarmed. He called 911, alarmed, and said there was a man with a gun that he thinks is a threat. Dispatch hears "gun" and "threat" in the same sentence and automatically sends the nearest 5 units. They walk in expecting trouble, meet the manager who is expecting trouble, and you're pointed out by the manager to the police as the troublemaker. I defy anyone who thinks this would have played out any differently as of this moment to say exactly what 7 police officers in a dark theater expecting trouble would honestlyhave done differently.

    Contrast that with another scenario where you're walking around with your S.O. in a park, and someone else sees you and calls the police saying "hey, um, I don't know if this is a big deal, but there's a guy walking around with apistol on his hip... No, he's just kinda walking around talking to a girl who's with him." Dispatch gets a call like that, and IF an officer shows up the most they'll probably do is interview you, maybe ask for ID, and say he got a call that someone was a little disturbed by the OC, so do you have a CHL andwould you mind concealing?

    Now, what chaps my @$$ about this is that they may have sent 7 officers who were expecting trouble and thus used soft-hand restraint to get you out of the theater, but in the light of day,once they knowyou're active USAF, have confirmed that you did nothing more with the gun than carry it into an anti's theater, and that you are not a "threat" to them or anyone else,that their demeanor did not immediately soften.

    I smell an official complaint. As the officers did not draw on you, did not arrest you and let you go once everything was straightened out, your actual damages are limited to missing20-30 minutes of the movie and so I doubt you'd get much by filing suit. But you can file an FOIA request for the names of the officers who responded to that call on that day, get copies of the police reports,and file complaints against each of them. Officers pay attention when a complaint is put in their file, because that file determines their pay raises, promotion likelihood, retirement benefits, and even whether they remain employed at all. Thus a complaint may not sound like much but you can be sure that the officer and their bosses will take notice.

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    Wait...so first they remove you with force from the theater, remove your gun without your permission, search you without your permission, and take your ID without you giving it to them? AM I READING THIS CORRECTLY????

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    I have one question why in the heck did you go back in?

    I would have demanded my money back and told them I'd never be back. I can't imagine that.

    Also, I'd be filing formal complaints on the cops.

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    They just violated your rights big time. I would file for a FOIA on the 911 call, the dispatch, and all communications electronic and written concerning this. I would then seek a good civil lawyer.

    The detained you illegally, and by removing you from the theater you were siezed not just detained. They illegally searched you, they had no reasonable articulable suspiscion that a crime had been commited.

    I would look at getting at least $50,000.00 dollars for the embarrasment of being dragged out of a crowded theater, being made a spectacle of in front of a large crowd, and having your 4th Amendment Rights trampled and pi - - ed upon.



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    A member wrote:
    They just violated your rights big time. I would file for a FOIA on the 911 call, the dispatch, and all communications electronic and written concerning this. I would then seek a good civil lawyer.

    The detained you illegally, and by removing you from the theater you were siezed not just detained. They illegally searched you, they had no reasonable articulable suspiscion that a crime had been commited.

    I would look at getting at least $50,000.00 dollars for the embarrasment of being dragged out of a crowded theater, being made a spectacle of in front of a large crowd, and having your 4th Amendment Rights trampled and pi - - ed upon.



    Please cite the case law everyone. It helps the new guys see that their rights actually have been violated. And there is a forum rule on it.*

    Terry vs Ohiois a good place to start: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html

    A detention is a seizure for the purposes of the 4th Amendment. See Terry.

    Reasonable articulable suspicionabout a crime past, present, or future is not grounds for a search of the person in this case. RAS applies to justification for a detention. Armed and presently dangerous applies to frisk and temporary weapon seizure. See Terry on both points.


    What sorts of police behavior determine whether a detention has occured? See US vs Mendenhall as a starting point:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZO.html



    If you haven't already, save these opinions in your Favorites folder. You will (or should) find yourself referring to them from time to time.


    *From the Forum Rules of Engagement:

    7) if you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.




    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    They asked me if I was armed and I told them that yes I was.

    Me personally, I would have told them to be quiet, I'm trying to enjoy a movie.

    The cop on my left asks me why I am carrying a handgun in public.

    Ok, serious response this time:

    "I don't consent to any searches. I want a lawyer." and Shut up.

    So I told him "Nope, I don't expect to get into a shoot out. Yes I realize that there are childeren in the theater and no I don't think that there will be an issue with one of them coming and taking it from me to play with it. You guys had enough issues getting it outta the holster in the first place. And if someone wants to some into the theater and shoot someone, they are gonna bring thier own gun, they arn't gonna bank on the hope of someone being there with one already that they can hopefully take and use.

    as your lawyer screams "Why are you still talking????"

    At this point I just held my tongue, I was pretty irate.

    I think if you are really pissed off, you should channel your anger into a nice civil lawsuit. If you let such misbehavior go unchecked, you only encourage it in the future.

    This is some seriously annoying stuff, I know all the gun laws for the states that I'm stationed in and the laws for the states that border the states that I'm stationed in.

    Oh yeah, what do you know about 42 USC 1983?

    I smell an official complaint.

    (Edited to remove any references to female anatomy)

    I think official complaints have their place, but they are less effective than lawsuits. Why not do them both.

    Also, I'd be filing formal complaints on the cops.
    Hit them with a lawsuit too.

    I am going to redo my thread on suing. I'm tired of reading about this crap.

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    codename_47 wrote:
    SNIP ...and the ONLY way to resolve it is to cost them lots of money and drag them in front of a judge. Complaining to the people who send them out to violate your rights isn't really going to have the desired effect.
    I understand your frustration. Sometimes I get a little frustrated, too.

    Then I just remind myself that variations in opinion,preparedness, and knowledgeresult from the human condition.



    As to the efficacy of formal complaints, they definitely work. It has its place in the arsenal of ways to assert rights and get them respected.

    LoudounCounty and Fairfax County, Virginiawere straightened outfor OC. No OCers have been harassed in the City of Manassasssince the Tony'scomplaint.

    Some jurisdictions respond after a few complaints. Cities in Washington State and Alexandria, VA come to mind.

    Some need a lawsuit to snap them around, I agree. But it need not be the automatic first response.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Talk to a civil rights attorney now. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. After speaking to this attorney and under his advice, consider action with the Office of Civil Rights of the US Justice Department. I, too, am tired of reading of this type of situation. Nail them to the wall, period. No mercy. Criminal charges, if possible. Civil suit, unquestionably.

    I support law enforcement officers in general. But if we cannot use ignorance of the law as an excuse, no one else can either. And the only way it will be stopped is punitive action of the most stringent nature.

    It especially chaps my posterior that a member of the armed forces of the United States was subjected to this, but that is a personal matter, not a rational one. NO CITIZEN deserves this. NO EXCUSE!
    If the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.--Samuel Adams as Candidus, Boston Gazette 20 Jan. 1772

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    If you think sueing is the only way to resolve harassment of OC'ers then you haven't been paying attention around here. There are other avenues that have worked to 'educate' the PD's.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    What theatre was this? What was the managers name? What was the name of any of the police?

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    codename_47 wrote:
    They asked me if I was armed and I told them that yes I was.

    Me personally, I would have told them to be quiet, I'm trying to enjoy a movie.

    The cop on my left asks me why I am carrying a handgun in public.

    Ok, serious response this time:

    "I don't consent to any searches. I want a lawyer." and Shut up.

    So I told him "Nope, I don't expect to get into a shoot out. Yes I realize that there are childeren in the theater and no I don't think that there will be an issue with one of them coming and taking it from me to play with it. You guys had enough issues getting it outta the holster in the first place. And if someone wants to some into the theater and shoot someone, they are gonna bring thier own gun, they arn't gonna bank on the hope of someone being there with one already that they can hopefully take and use.

    as your lawyer screams "Why are you still talking????"

    At this point I just held my tongue, I was pretty irate.

    No you aren't. You aren't mad at all. You'd be suing them if you were irate, but you won't. Everyone talks about "gee, I can't believe this is happening" yet they do NOTHING to curb the abuses. You are part of the problem or you are part of the solution...

    This is some seriously annoying stuff, I know all the gun laws for the states that I'm stationed in and the laws for the states that border the states that I'm stationed in.

    Oh yeah, what do you know about 42 USC 1983?

    I smell an official complaint.

    Well, I smell a *****. Yeah, I said it. Official complaints are for pussies (no gender flames intended) Real men sue. I'm tired of reading about these cases, and the ONLY way to resolve it is to cost them lots of money and drag them in front of a judge. Complaining to the people who send them out to violate your rights isn't really going to have the desired effect.

    Also, I'd be filing formal complaints on the cops.
    Weak.

    I am going to redo my thread on suing. I'm tired of reading about this crap.

    Good grief!
    Where to begin?

    1. Major logical error--a non sequitur regarding the carrying of a gun in public. The police did not mention anything about a search at that time--they didn't need to, because they ALREADY knew about the gun!

    2. You claim to know Jizzle's emotional state better than he does, which is both illogical and extremely stupid.

    3. You make unwarranted assumptions. Unless you know Jizzle in real life, you have no idea of his financial situation. It takes both money and time to sue.

    4. Offensive language. You claim that "real men sue." Real men don't need to use profanity to make their point or to insult people.
    For instance (example in white, below)--
    [color=gray]You, my good sir, have shown yourself to be a stupid, worthless, good-for-nothing, stinking, flea-bitten,idiotic, offensive,decaying, putrid pile of garbage.

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    1. Major logical error--a
    non sequitur regarding the carrying of a gun in public. The police did not mention anything about a search at that time--they didn't need to, because they ALREADY knew about the gun!

    Ok, and when he brings up the issue of a 4th amendment violation, they'll say that he consented to it and didn't protest.


    2. You claim to know Jizzle's emotional state better than he does, which is both illogical and extremely stupid.

    I'm just challenging him to do something about it. In general people that are irate and pissed of make things happen.

    3. You make unwarranted assumptions. Unless you know Jizzle in real life, you have no idea of his financial situation. It takes both money and time to sue.

    Umm, no. You obviously know nothing about suing. Lawsuits take the ability to read, write, speak in public, and waiting on the postman. Time has nothing to do with his financial situation, and if he can't afford to sue, then he can file an "in forma paupis" and do it for free.

    Before you make some unwarranted assumptions about me, I've sued in Federal court lots of times, represented myself in the vast majority, and most important have had success doing so. Got a pacer account?

    If you think sueing is the only way to resolve harassment of OC'ers then you haven't been paying attention around here. There are other avenues that have worked to 'educate' the PD's.

    I guess that's the thing. I don't want to educate them: I want to punish them. I don't think it is the only way, just the most effective. You could run for office, heck you could run for sherriff and set new policy. That isn't feasable for most people, though. You could write his mother a letter while you are filing the complaint and let her know he's been a naughty boy, but again I think that will have the same level of effect.

    If a cop gets a dozen complaints filed, it could hurt his promotion potential. If a cop gets sued, it could affect him, his life, his retirement, and when he is working all that overtime to pay for the judgment against him, I doubt he'll chance such an encounter again. Most of the other people in the PD will hear about it and adjust their behavior accordingly. It is like that Despair poster "perhaps the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others." I don't want education, I want punishment.


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    IRT calling your 1st Sgt..



    "So you're going to call my 1st Sgt to tell him I haven't broken any laws? I'll dial..."

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    codename_47 wrote:

    1. Major logical error--a
    non sequitur regarding the carrying of a gun in public. The police did not mention anything about a search at that time--they didn't need to, because they ALREADY knew about the gun!

    Ok, and when he brings up the issue of a 4th amendment violation, they'll say that he consented to it and didn't protest.


    2. You claim to know Jizzle's emotional state better than he does, which is both illogical and extremely stupid.

    I'm just challenging him to do something about it. In general people that are irate and pissed of make things happen.

    3. You make unwarranted assumptions. Unless you know Jizzle in real life, you have no idea of his financial situation. It takes both money and time to sue.

    Umm, no. You obviously know nothing about suing. Lawsuits take the ability to read, write, speak in public, and waiting on the postman. Time has nothing to do with his financial situation, and if he can't afford to sue, then he can file an "in forma paupis" and do it for free.

    Before you make some unwarranted assumptions about me, I've sued in Federal court lots of times, represented myself in the vast majority, and most important have had success doing so. Got a pacer account?

    If you think sueing is the only way to resolve harassment of OC'ers then you haven't been paying attention around here. There are other avenues that have worked to 'educate' the PD's.

    I guess that's the thing. I don't want to educate them: I want to punish them. I don't think it is the only way, just the most effective. You could run for office, heck you could run for sherriff and set new policy. That isn't feasable for most people, though. You could write his mother a letter while you are filing the complaint and let her know he's been a naughty boy, but again I think that will have the same level of effect.

    If a cop gets a dozen complaints filed, it could hurt his promotion potential. If a cop gets sued, it could affect him, his life, his retirement, and when he is working all that overtime to pay for the judgment against him, I doubt he'll chance such an encounter again. Most of the other people in the PD will hear about it and adjust their behavior accordingly. It is like that Despair poster "perhaps the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others." I don't want education, I want punishment.
    He cannot file in forma pauperis--note correct spelling, but of course can file pro se. First, I suggest he contacts the JA at Holloman and get some advice. They can't act for you, but certainly can give free advise. Keep in mind that this differs from an on the street encounter in that it occured on private property--that is was open to the public upon paying admission, notwithstanding. Courts take a different view, even with the most liberal intrepretation of OC rights, on private property vice out in a park somewhere. I don't see this case making because of that, but that's just my opinion. Filing a complaint with the cops IA/chief of police is probably the best response. Terry v Ohio could come into play because the cops thought he brought the gun to commit a crime--a stretch, but who knows how it would go down. 30 years ago when I was stationed at Cannon AFB, the cops couldn't care less if you walked downtown (ha) Clovis, NM with an M-60 over your shoulder. Times change.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    What department were these officers from?
    What was the name of the theater? Manager? Officer in charge?

    Your lack of details disturbs me...

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    ScottyT wrote:
    What department were these officers from?
    What was the name of the theater? Manager? Officer in charge?

    Your lack of details disturbs me...
    I hope he has them, but posting them would be bad news if he wanted to pursue anything.

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    I can't help noticing that Jizzle hasn't been back to this thread. After getting out of one hornet's nest with LE. On his first post on this forum seeking support and advise, he walked right in to another hornet's nest. Here's some stinging criticism for sharing your valuable personal experience with us. How embarrassing. Hope we don't lose him.

    BTW Jizzle, welcome to the OCDO forum.

    Also, kudos to all who did support and advise.


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    cccook wrote:
    I can't help noticing that Jizzle hasn't been back to this thread.
    He might only have access at home.

    Note the time he posted. Yesterday after working hours

    He should respond tonight, maybe.

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    Dustin wrote:
    cccook wrote:
    I can't help noticing that Jizzle hasn't been back to this thread.
    He might only have access at home.

    Note the time he posted. Yesterday after working hours

    He should respond tonight, maybe.
    I hope you're right. Sorry to get on my high horse. I just couldn't shake the feeling that he got spanked here. Guess I'm just too sensitive.

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    'Can't believe this happened in New Mexico. 'Must be recruiting POPO's in California.



    Whatever... SUE THEIR ASSES OFF!

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    hsmith wrote:
    ScottyT wrote:
    What department were these officers from?
    What was the name of the theater? Manager? Officer in charge?

    Your lack of details disturbs me...
    I hope he has them, but posting them would be bad news if he wanted to pursue anything.




    No it would not. If you followed any of the threads from Virg or Penn where they had bad encounters they posted EVERYTHING and it did not hurt the case. There are too many of these posts where someone claims something but has no details. Yet everyone jumps right in trying to help. He went through all this trouble to post yet left out any real details. Just the name of the theatre would be enough to end my doubt because then we could write and call them to get the policy changed. This is just another BS story.

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    cccook wrote:
    How embarrassing. Hope we don't loose him.






    It is LOSE not loose. I hate that.

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    Vegassteve wrote:
    cccook wrote:
    How embarrassing. Hope we don't loose him.






    It is LOSE not loose. I hate that.
    Actually, it works this time.

    Loose \Loose\, n.

    1. Freedom from restraint. [Obs.]

    --Prior.
    2. A letting go; discharge. .

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    Aran wrote:
    Vegassteve wrote:
    cccook wrote:
    How embarrassing. Hope we don't loose him.






    It is LOSE not loose. I hate that.
    Actually, it works this time.

    Loose Loose, n.

    1. Freedom from restraint. [Obs.]

    --Prior.
    2. A letting go; discharge. .
    No it does not work in this case. As we were not holding him.The post wasabout him going away on his own.People use loose all the time when they mean lose. It is wrong.

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