Current Balance: $250 Paypal, $50 Snailmail
I got the approval from my attorney to discuss this issue publicly, in order to solicit contributions.
I intend to file a lawsuit against the City and County of Denver for refusing to accept applications for concealed handgun licenses for non-residents of the state of Colorado, as well as suing the state of Colorado for their violation of my state citizenship rights by prohibiting the recognition of my Florida carry license under SB07-34 because I am a resident of Washington State. This is in violation of the privileges and immunities clause of the 14th amendment, under Ward v. Maryland and Saenz v. Roe My attorney is John Monroe, who is legal counsel for GeorgiaCarry.org and has scored several victories in both Georgia and federal court in regards to the gun rights of Georgians.
As a result of Colorado's law of SB07-34, as well as Denver's open carry ban, I had a life threatening experience when coming back when I flew back in from Colorado, that actually happened here in Washington State.
We are targeting Denver as well for three specific reasons:
1) The Sheriff's Departments and the DPD are the issuing authority for licenses in the state of Colorado. Targeting the State of Colorado solely would be imprecise as they are not the ones issuing licenses.
2) Denver has an open carry ban. Denver fight all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court to keep their open carry ban and they are only keeping it by the skins teeth of the fact that they ruled 3-3. Suing the City and County of Denver forces them to make a choice: Either repeal their open carry ban or start accepting applications and approving licenses to carry.
3) There is also a privileges and immunities issue that will likely be addressed by their passage of SB07-34 preventing me as a Washington State resident from being able to comply with state law. This violates my civil liberties as they (State of Colorado) are discriminating against me based on state citizenship, and this violates Saenz.
I know that there are many thousands effected by the law change, and it's time to fight back against the anti-gunners in Denver. I myself can contribute some money to the effort but since there are so many affected by the SB07-34 law (which prohibits recognition of non-resident licenses of reciprocal states), I'm hoping that some others may be willing to help shoulder the load. Though John Monroe is a good attorney who doesn't charge an outrageous rate, he does have to travel to Colorado and he needs to be able to make a living just like any of us, and has bills to pay. I myself am in the same boat, and cannot simply drop thousands of dollars into this case in one fell swoop.
Goyke v. Toomer
The above complaint is a partial example of what will be filed against Denver.
I have a paypal account that you may donate to, at lonnie.wilson @ comcast.net, put in there "Colorado case" and I will send it to my attorney. If you prefer snail mail/fedex/UPS or whatever delivery services, you can send it my attorney directly at:
re: Colorado Case
9640 Coleman Rd
Roswell, GA 30075
Edited to include more information
Ya gotta love the South! No judge in WA state (or CO for that matter) would be caught dead going by that name in public!PINKIE TOOMER, in her official capacity as Judge of the Probate Court of Fulton County, Georgia, and all others similarly situated
(Yeah, I know, O/T but I just couldn't resist...)
I know, I'm a former Floridian. You have no idea how many times I've seen names like that down there.
Thanks to 3 donations, the paypal fund is up to $110. Keep 'em rolling in.
I don't use paypal. But may be willing to snail some funds. I travel through denver to visit family in colorado several times a year, and I would love to be able to CC when I am there.
Good luck with this!!
Cool. Feel free to snail it to John Monroe.
I remember reading your account of the situation; very frightening! I’ll see what I can do.
What i dont understand is why you need donations? shouldnt the lawyer you have choosen be willing to take the case without money up front? Is your case not worth his time because it will not pan out? Is that why you need the money?
It seems to me that you have alot of loose ends floating around when it comes to the gun right fight. Remember Centralia? Seattle? etc. Never heard anything about them yet when something bigger comes along you are all over it.
How about finishing what you start and get some closure. You are suppose to be some sort of leader to the WA chapter of OC yet you dont show up for the meets and you dont show much of a intrest in the small problems that hinder our cause.
Dude you are a bit out of line here.
Centralia, lesse that problem SOLVED ITSELF! Not only was Phil supposed to follow up with Randy Loun (did that ever happen?) The Sheriff's office down there acknowledged the legality of OC, and informed us in writing that the people Phil talked with were not authorized to speak on that matter. REMEMBER?
And what about Seattle? That is a much bigger fish than those of us on OCDO. For starters you notice nothing is coming out of Seattle as far as a ban, because it won't work. It was simple barnstorming, plain and simple.
This is something the NRA, GOA, 2nd Admendment Foundation, etc... would have to be tackling not a small handful of activists with no major backing...
Marc, I don't know why you can't understand the two problems you mentioned have become non issues.
As far as the attorney needing money to pursue a case, some cases are very open/shut/slam dunk. Others are not. The attorney decides when he needs money to pursue something, and when he can risk his own time and money. Clearly in this case he needs money.
Take a chill pill dude!
There's a big difference between Randy Loun, who pounces on police brutality/abuse and someone who preemptively sues a state or locality for violating a constitutional right. There's no guarantees that court costs are granted, which is generally why such things are usually with costs up front paid for.What i dont understand is why you need donations? shouldnt the lawyer you have choosen be willing to take the case without money up front? Is your case not worth his time because it will not pan out? Is that why you need the money?
Lewis County has gun lock boxes now in it's courthouses, and you're consulting Randy Loun for the stuff that occured there. You're also consulting Randy Loun for the civil rights violations with Puyallup. How can I personally help you?It seems to me that you have alot of loose ends floating around when it comes to the gun right fight. Remember Centralia? Seattle? etc. Never heard anything about them yet when something bigger comes along you are all over it. How about finishing what you start and get some closure.
As for Seattle, as far as I know, hasn't done a damned thing to enforce the "let's create regulations" thing. Notice on the Seattle mayor's site that there's no further executive orders on the subject? Sounds like Mayor Nickels was blustering, but only today are we hearing about a municipal building enforcing a regulation.
What part of "I work weekends" do you not understand? I used to have Sundays off, but my schedule changed. Do you sign my paychecks? Didn't think so. I'm not Robert Levy, and I'm certainly not independently wealthy. Every Washingtonian carrier (concealed or open) who travels throughout the mountain west is affected by Colorado's laws and Denver's laws.You are suppose to be some sort of leader to the WA chapter of OC yet you dont show up for the meets and you dont show much of a intrest in the small problems that hinder our cause.
I do what I can, and I've taught several different people and have given advice so that they can go forth and help people like yourself, instead of me entirely shoulding the load for fixing and solving every problem in this state.
Did you, along with one other helper (just_a_car) get a municipal carry in parks charge dropped by calling up the Bellingham City Attorneys Office, advising them of the state preemption law, and advising them that if they went forward to the prosecution, they would be responsible for color of law civil rights violations and they could be held personally liable? Bellingham dropped the charges by the end of business that day, and they cleared his arrest record. He wasn't even an open carrier yet but I'm certain that now he is after the work that I and just_a_car did.
Oh, not to mention the whole training bulletin thing which reversed open carry being defacto illegal in this state for the last 35 years.
So tell me what you've done for the cause?
What he said!
I think I was in the first three to donate and having met Lonnie and read numerous things he's done here, also seeing how he's stepped up many times in the limited time I've been on here, I have no problem supporting any project he thinks is worthwhile.
I'm too new to know how this got started or if there were ever an "election" but it appears to me that Lonnie is just a guy who cares and is putting forth his best efforts on our behalf without collecting any paycheck for it. If that's wrong I'd love to hear the bylaws and rules of order for this little group that I have missed.
The guy seems alright in my book and besides ...he likes my bike.
Another difference worth pointing out is that cases like the Denver lawsuit have a huge lead time compared to something like contacting a department to file a complaint about a particular incident. So it's perfectly reasonable to get it going now, even while there are other things pending locally--the latter will most likely all be completely resolved and done with before there's any ruling from CO.
Thus far I've received $230. It'll take $500 to start the filings, and another $1500 to push together a full complaint.
Thanks to Sharp, Gene Beasley, irfner, and Gunslinger thus far.
I sent a few bucks. There may be more to come after the first of the month
Keep us posted on the fund raising. This needs to go through. Also have you posted on the Colorado forum?
Paypal Balance is up to $250, $50 more coming in via snail mail.
Yeah, I'll be posting in Colorado for this one.
I'm posting in this thread here in Washington because jarhead1055 decided it would be cool to attack me in the Colorado forum. I post the entirety of my response to his reply in the Colorado solicitation thread, his words in italics, mine in regular print. You be the judge:
"What the money asking wolf is not mentioning in his requests for cash is that he handed them a FL CWP and a WA st DL so they kicked it back and he is pissy cause he wasnt allowed to take his gun to denver.
Handed "them" a FL CWP? Who's "them"? Do you even know what you are even talking about?
and what's wrong with being a wolf? :what:
The funny thing is that he made a CHOICE to leave it in WA and the incident happened in WA.
We had this conversation in conference with just_a_car and sv_libertarian. You stated that you'd rather challenge the Denver OC law by getting yourself arrested for OCing in violation of Denver's ordinance, as you believe that would be the better way.
Criminal defense cases make for bad case law.
You cannot conceal carry in Colorado without a license. PERIOD. You cannot open carry in Denver. PERIOD.
It sounded like to me in the conference that you'd rather directly challenge a law and then throw yourself at the mercy of the court to strike down the law.
Your way of doing things is similar to Hollis Wayne Fincher, who built himself a machine-gun and expected by some miraculous belief that the the courts would exonerate him on Second Amendment grounds. That didn't happen.
My way of doing things is similar to Dick Heller from the DC gun ban case, which is to sue the District of Columbia for violating his civil liberties.
Who's in prison right now after the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals hung him out to dry? Hollis Wayne Fincher.
Who's still free and was able to register his revolver? Dick Heller.
Who's way of doing things is better? All of you here can be the judge, and to me Heller certainly isn't a "coward", which you repeatedly inferred and accused me of being for not just flat out getting myself arrested for open carry in Denver.
Its not our fault he did not think ahead and its not our responsibility to pay for his lack of foresight. He is also asking for money on the WA forum as well and i am beyond myself as to how much of a waste of time it is.
So you impugn my integrity, using misrepresentations of the situation?
The reason why his lawyer wants all this money is because he knows it has no chance of winning and with just about anyone money will buy you there time not a win.
If my lawyer was only in it for the money, he'd be charging me a lot more than $2000 to start. $2000 for a federal civil rights case to start is CHUMP change compared to what others are willing to charge. He's a believer in the gun rights cause, and the VP of GeorgiaCarry.org.
So i think if people in CO are upset about denver then its up to you people to deal with it, but from what i can see not many of you seem to be to upset over this. So Lonnie if you are reading this..........
Its not all about you if this was that big of a problem dont you think the residents of CO would have taken active intrest in this and started getting it fixed long before you got your boxers in a bunch?
Not listening to what I said in the conference, eh?
Let's go over this again.
1994: Colorado Supreme Court rules in Robertson v. City and County of Denver that the city's Assault Weapons Ordinance is constitutional under Article 2, Section 13, due to it not implicating a "fundamental right"
2002: Colorado Appellate Court in Trinen v. City and County of Denver finds Denver Municipal Code 38-117 is constitutional. The appellate panel interpreted a rational basis test out of the Robertson, and essentially stated that because Denver is a "big city with crime problems", they can ban carry and strictly license it. This essentially destroyed the provisions of bearing arms in A2S13, in which this court completely ignored the "concealed weapons" provisions in that section. This was before shall-issue CCW passed in 2003. Read this again: The Colorado Court system essentially turned A2S13 into toilet paper.
2003: Colorado Legislature, sick of Denver's continual abuses and the CCW discretion problems, and seeing that the state judiciary was abdicating their responsibilities passes SB03-24 and SB03-25. 24 brought in shall-issue concealed handgun licenses, and 25 preempted gun laws, including open carry laws.
Denver immediately files a lawsuit against the State of Colorado. John Sternberg of the Aurora Gun Club files a lawsuit against the City and County of Denver to force them to accept SB03-25. This was combined together at District court level.
2004: Denver wins in part, loses in part. State of Colorado's car carry provisions stay, as well as the shall-issue licensing law, and the ability to carry in Denver parks concealed with CHL. Judge Meyer crafts a new exemption in A2S13, stating that because Colorado law doesn't license open carry, the cities can regulate it despite a clear statutory command to the contrary. State of Colorado appeals, and Denver cross appeals, and John Sternberg also appeals.
Supreme Court of Colorado takes the case on certiorari soon after and sets up oral arguments.
2006: Supreme Court of Colorado splits 3-3. Justice Eid, who was sworn in before oral arguments were done in 2005, represented the State of Colorado in it's appeal to have SB03-25 recognized in the same case. Eid recuses (she was likely a pro SB25 vote), causing a split. By operation of law the lower court decision is affirmed within the confines of the lower court's decision, meaning that Denver v. State and Sternberg is standing case law in the Denver Circuit only. John Sternberg spent a tremendous amount of his own money, only to be dashed by a split court decision. If he himself relitigates, Eid will likely recuse again.
From 1994 on, the Colorado State Court system essentially treated their RKBA provision similar to the states of Illinois, Kansas, and Massachusetts where it essentially means nothing. Even a clear STATUTORY preemption law was mistreated by the Colorado courts and crapped on. The best gun rights attorneys in Colorado absolutely refused to re-litigate the issue in state court because they are afraid that Eid would recuse herself again. Believe me, I asked.
Then the "June miracle" occured.
6 26 2008: Heller decision released, re-emphasizes the possession of firearms and the carrying of them in self defense to be an individual fundamental right. The Heller court repeatedly warns the lower federal courts not to rely on Cruikshank or other incorporation cases involving the 2nd amendment as guidance.
Since the Colorado State Courts have completely abdicated their responsibilities to protect their state constitution (see Trinen), this essentially means A2S13 is dead letter, which leaves the only way to challenge Denver's laws is via a 14th amendment incorporation challenge via due process or privileges and immunities. This must be done via the federal courts, as the state courts have treated the idea of bearing arms openly with such disdain that they cannot be trusted to rule fairly and accurately.
This is an obvious case where you didn't listen to a single word I was saying in the conference. I explained all of this to you but it seems to be going in one ear or out the other, or I have to repeat myself over and over again for you to remember, and then when you do remember certain things, you twist it to make me look like the bad guy.
So quit asking people for money you dont see me asking people for money do you? I dont see anyone else asking for money either. Your problem your bill quit trying to make others pay for your lack of foresight.
No one's forcing you to pay for anything. My statements were made very clear on that subject. Sounds like you have a personal problem with me. Stow it.
I honestly haven't seen any Colorado gun owners on this forum step up and say that they're going to go for a full challenge against Denver's gun ordinances in light of Heller. I certainly would encourage any such open carry challenge by a Colorado resident to go forward. Does someone here have the gravitas and the funding to do such a challenge? I know there's lots of complaining about Denver's OC law, but not a lot in terms of direct action.
Lonnie, There is no reason for you to have to justifyyour actions here. Your history with OC speaks for itself. Anyone interested can research this forum and get a pretty good idea of the contributions you have made.
I will send another donation by snail this week.
P.S. You don't win money every time you win a law suite. Sometimes victory is measured in other ways.
Marc, I don't know why you have issues with this. If Lonnie wishes to launch a lawsuit that is his right. If he wishes to ask for money for it, it is his right. It is also your right to ignore it if you don't care to contribute. To sit here and argue about why you think Lonnie's reasoning is flawed is also your right. The whole thing is counterproductive though. Folks who are inclined to give money for this will, and folks who won't, won't. But you are not making things any better with your incessant drumming about this.
I don't have any extra money right now (just made a donation to the McCain campaign) but might at the end of the month as I only get paid once per month.
Have you approached the NRA's legal division? They deal with these kinds of lawsuits on a regular basis. They recently won the Morton Grove, IL when the city backed down. They would probably be interested in providing some sort of assistance to a high profile case like Denver.
Can anyone here please explain to me why the members of the CO oc group are not all up in arms about this? Why does it take someone from WA to deal with something in CO?
How is this our problem in WA? Lonnie next time take your gun with you in your suitecase and put it back on when u get to WA or whoever u have pick you up bring it to you.
Who cares why CO isn't up in arms about this? Does liberty come with limitations or must certain people act before others can take up a cause?