Taurus

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Having shot a few cape (Water) buffalo (nam), I'd be a little reluctant to set out after one with either a .410 or a 45LC. RE: "mess"- If I am required to take the BG's head OFF to protect my life; the mess isn't going to phase me, and a good defense atty know how to disarm the "you used too much bullet" or "you could have only meant to kill this person" One argument goes, if you are going quail hunting, you pretty much know which "sporting weapon" to use. If you arm yourself for the defense of yourself or your family, you can't easily anticipate what gun/ammo combination is best, can you? You can't foretell how you will be attacked, how many attackers there will be, etc. Isn't this true?

I've been involved in dozens of shoot reviews (where I was not involved in the shoot) Don't give the DA some "mystical power" that he actually lacks. An educated/trained shooter knows more than your average DA does about firearm and self defense. If you face a DA with a reputation for knowing "guns"; plan for it by reviewing what you know. Do some research!

We have an adversarial legal system! Some fear their legal adversary more than they feared their criminal adversary. If you didn't let one intimidate you; don't let the other.

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First .410 in the face, then 5 .45LCs any place you choose. Should get the job done...

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You said it all! Our extensive knowledge is what will shut down any useful attempt by a DA to suggest we used too much fire power. And as you stated, what is too much if the circumstances are not of prior knowledge to a would be victim? Impossible to know, but certainly possible to prepare for. I never think, is this too much fire power? or will this make too big of a hole? How ridiculous, I''d much rather be talking with a DA or facing a grand jury, than laying in a hospital bed cripple or possibly 6 feet under. I don't know if I've mentioned my personal experiences over the last 40 years or so but they have been extreme, life threatening. When I was about 12 years old I was riding my bike to a fishing spot several miles from my home when I encountered a man in a truck who stopped me to ask directions or something casual as it seemed. But I wasskeptical at 5:00 AM of his intentions so I kept my distance from his truck window. Well, he jumped out and came at me with a knife, and on my side was a 22 pistol he didn't see in the dark of the morning. While getting away from my bike so I could move about freely I drew the gun in a major panic, being only 12 years old, and I yelled at him to freeze or I'll shoot! HE just about crapped his pants right there, begged me to not kill him. I won't finish that story for obvious reasons.

My sister and I were hitch hiking home from the beach when I was 16, she was 19. we were picked up by a guy in a van and within 10 minutes of getting into his van he pulled a knife and put it to my sisters throat and ordered her to take off her clothes while we were exiting the highway down a remote wooded area. He told me to not do anything or he would kill her. Knowing my sis had a gun in her purse which was just an easy reach for me. I waited till he was distracted for an instant as he was still driving and grabbed the purse at which point he grabbed desperately trying to stop me obviously thinking there was something of importance in that purse.I successfullygrabbed the gun out of her purse and pointed it at him, but he was doubtful I would use it and continued to reach for it saying you don't know how to kill anyone and probably don't know how to use that gun. As he reached for it I let a round go, he started nearly instantly crying and begging for his life while covering the hole in his shoulder to stop the bleeding, must have hit an artery. Anyway, I made him drive us to a well populated area and offered him the chance to call the police or just deal with his circumstances on his own. I was young and really didn't know what to do other than just defend myself, but I have never hurt someone unless it was absolutely necessary and no other choice existed. These are only two of my more than average encounters. I don't know why I've had so many encounters with sick and dangerous people in all the years I've been alive, but I thank God I was able to defend myself and others who would have certainly faced deadly circumstances other wise. Judge me or not, but I don't feel I did anything wrong in defending myself or others as I have had to do. Maybe because I'm always aware of my surroundings is a contributing factor to why I've had so many encounters of a deadly nature. I certainly don't look for these circumstances, I just happen to see them or I'm chosen as a victim, maybe because of my small size, I'm 5' 4" and only weigh 115 lbs. and I'm now an elderly man. One would think I'm looking for the opportunity to use my weapon if I were to take the time to tell of all the deadly encounters I've been forced to respond to with deadly defense, but again, that is most certainly not the case, by any means. I would do anything to avoid these extremely frightening, stressful, circumstances that leave me almost unable to stand from the fear and shock of the encounter with the sick, dangerous individuals who have no consciences or regard for human life. I've thrown up following some of my bad experiences from the fear and terrible shock. I'm really surprised I haven't had a heart attack in some of these encounters, I'm a sensitive individual.I was attacked about 2 months ago in my own neighborhood by 2 gang type guys who ended up running and screaming for their lives, but not until they had hurt me pretty badly, catching me unaware of their being hidden in a spot waiting to ambush me. Again, I thank God I was wearing as I always am.

gamestalker

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Gamestalker: Sure glad you made it thru to be here with us!

sincerely - alec

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Well thank you Alec for the sentiment. I'll tell you, it's a serious reality for me to carry a means of self defense on me and under my pillow at all times. I have such difficulty with those that simply can't relate to how important it is to me personally to be prepared to defend my life or another. I'm not real patient with the liberal portion of population who feels our law enforcement is all that we need. Don't misunderstand me, I more than appreciate what they do for us but unfortunately they are more likely to not be there in a life threatening situation than to be there because of the laws of average, certainly not because of there failure in some way. I have a sister who thinks I'm excessive and obsessive compulsive and thinks I'm rather paranoid, obviously not the one of whom I saved because I accessed her handgun in time of need. My brother is not believing of the incidents I've encountered and thinks I've either invented these incidents or exaggerated them, and is also the type of individual who will simply walk away from another person who is being robbed, raped, murdered, being seriously beat, I think you get the idea, he is not going to get involved to any, and I mean any extent. I have never seen him ever stand up for the right cause or in short be a man. I'm not ashamed to say he is my Brother, but I know I can't count on him to watch my back or support me in any situation.

One of my Son's who have deployed to Afghanistan and Iraqrecently returned and we all went out to havea nice dinnerin celebration. The service and meal were terrible andI complained to the manager. My brother ask me to step outside following my discussion with the manager to tell me I terriblyembarrassed him by making an issue of the bad service and food. He was very much alone in his opinion as the rest of my family thanked me for addressing the situation of which I did in a respectful and professional manner. I did at that time tell him I was ashamed of his inappropriate complaint, and that it personally insults my Son forhis service to our country.

Back in the 1960s my Brother received his draft notice and through some strings and money he managed to get his doctor to prescribe a couple of meds that made him appear to have a heart problem that kept the Army from accepting him. That is shameful if anything is! I and others may not have agreed about that particular conflict, but to run and hide basically from your responsibility to our nation is shameful at the very least. It is this mind set that is threatening our nation, and the liberty we represent throughout the world.

Again, I apologize for my long winded response, but I'm compelled to fully express my love for the United States and what it means to be American and the responsibility of being an American. No one should like war, but it is how we won, and have maintained our free way of life, and must not be forgotten, ever!

gamestalker

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Gamestalker:

You and I share some experiences in common. Just remember that paranoid in our world means Condition Yellow. Those trained in the use of weapons for self defense, and alert to what is going on around them are the one's that survive. Survival itself can carry with it a terrible price, but the cost is far less than the alternative!

Justification is a personal matter, if we believe we are justified, who else do we really have to convince?

I understand how you feel and couldn't agree with you more. I am sending you something via PM that will enable you to get a better feeling for my position.

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I have conducted a series of tests and personal observations regarding the hot core, uni-core,or bonded cores. The difference in performance is amazing. Shoot a piece of wet paper free hanging from 20' or so with a dry piece behind it a foot or so. Use the HST and note the diameter of the hole with the first piece of paper and then the second piece. Now do that with the GD and you will see that the first entry hole is already showing a great deal of expansion and the second even more so. now to test the jacket for retention. Shoot a piece of frozen or near frozen hamburger, water jugs, and if you just happen to have some ballistic gel that is the real test, which is what I use along with the the other two. I won't get carried away with describing the results as that also ruins some of the fun, but I will tell you that even so the GD expands rapidly, but because it stays intact, and retains it's shape so well, it is able to get very good penetration too.

I have a hunting experience that although doesn't involve a handgun it does involve a Speer hot core bullet. I was elk hunting with a friend of mine. I got my shot and it wasn't a good one and with that I mean all I had was the ass facing me. Not wanting to go home empty handed I took the shot and got lucky. The bullet traveled straight up the spinal column, I do mean straight up the spine And passed through ever single vertebrae stopping at the base of the neck. I was using a .270 with a 130 gr. Speer Hot Core boat tail. When I retrieved the projectile I didn't really expect to find much more than pieces of it. But to my surprise I found a nicely mushroomed bullet completely intact and it absolutely went through every single vertebrae from the ass to the base of the neck! I cleaned the meat and bone off of the bullet and put it on my scale to find 87% retention, that's right 113 grains of the original 130 grains with the jacket still firmly attached to it. Now that may seem difficult to calculate as good performance, but my buddy using a 30-06 shot his bull through the shoulder and the bullet stopped in the opposite shoulder, but never made it through the bone on the opposite side. He was not using the Speer Hot Core and instead was usng a 180 grain silver tip something or another. A factory round. Long story short, his round did not have any good penetration and the bullet was nearly irretrievable due to compete fragmentation and jacket separation after its entry point. It was in2 pieces that accounted for 94 grains of the bullet and the rest was in little frags all through the channel or channel's. I'm sold on Speer's design and have tried most of all the rest. The onlystuff I really think is good but only for serious hunting applications is the barnes. I think they have a very effective design for serious penetration, when expansion isn't as important as penetration is.

I've also loaded with Sierra and found that their load data for the same bullet configuration is substantially reduced. I wondered why and decided to dismantle one and found what I had suspected, it was not bonded, it had a rather thin jacket at the base where its needed for a good reload powder charge, and the olgive was very inconsistent in depth and diameter due to the core being pressed into the jacket. I was also seeing inconsistent weights of +/- 1 or 2 grains, something I've never seen with Speer or other quality bullets. I was seeing little holes outside of the primary holeon the paper at 200 yds. also, that worried me a lot. Their bullets were beginning to disintegrate.I complained to them about these inconsistencies and they have since stepped up their product now offering a better bullet design with a bonded core. I think we are going to see more and more of this change as more and more people are realizing how critical a bonded core is when needing penetration and expansionin a controlled manner.

gamestalker

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Gamestalker: Couldn't send as promised, no email address! duh! my bad!



alec

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I have a judge. It is overrated for self defense purposes. Its big, its generally heavy (non-lite model), its expensive. If somebody was breaking into my house and I had a choice lets say between a standard 6 shot .357 revolver or the judge when I was running out to greet the intruder I was ALWAYS choose the .357.

.45LC is a low pressure round that does only slightly better than .45ACP anyway, and even large shot in .410 does not really penetrate well out of the tiny barrel. using .410 slugs is dumb as hell because you could just use a .45LC instead, which in turn, is worse than just pulling out the old 1911 or .357. Or a glock with 15 shots (my choice).

I like the flexibility that the judge gives you, but people are dreaming when they imagine all the Judge scenarios. I keep it in my truck when I am in snake territory and do not have a shotgun with me. Loaded with two #8 shot shells and 3 45LC for other critters, and some spares of both in a bag next to it. Of course if I had to use it on two legged threats I would, but it would not be my go to.

Also, I am not in support of buying new Taurus. For the same money there is almost always something better out there (especially smith autos and revolvers). Used Tauruses are great because they are usually dirt cheap and have a decent repair warranty.