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Thread: Private Propety Rights

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    This question has come up before in various forms, but I want to ask it again. A store open to the public is private property, but what can they do to restrict OC? I understand that they have private property rights, but since they are open to the public they can't refuse service based on race, religion, etc. How does that apply to OC? The next hurdle I see for us who OC is that people might get savvy to the fact that they can just ask us to leave. It would be a shame if after all this companies just start implementing sweeping policies banning guns on their property. Know what I mean? Then you can OC outside only. I think that PDs that are against us just might start telling local businesses to refuse service. Your thoughts?

    -Rob

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    AZ is the prime example of what happens. A bunch of stores post no weapons signs, some don't post signs but still ask you to leave, but the majority of them just don't care.

    It's their private property, their right to kick us out, and our moral obligation to shop elsewhere rather than disarm and support jerks.
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    Businesses like money, we have money they want, most want us as customers... I don't see it being an issue. Worst case, we shop somewhere that really does want our money enough to respect our rights...

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    It is true with Michigan having such a job hungry economy that OCing might not cause as many problems at businesses as it might have 10 years ago.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I have seen businesses post no guns signs, although most of them are posted in anticipation of concealed carry, I believe they would also prohibit OC as well. Still, in Michigan, as long as it's not a declared "No carry zone" you can go in, and wait for them to ask to take your gun out. You won't be in trouble, unless you refuse to leave once you are asked.

    I went into a store that had a small, mostly transparent "No guns" sign, shopped around picked up a cart load of stuff, then, just before I was ready to check out, the manager came and asked if I'd seen their sign. I said, "What sign?" he then explained about the store's "no guns policy." I just said, "Oh, Ok."pushed the cart to one side, and walked out. I just love doing that.

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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    I have seen businesses post no guns signs, although most of them are posted in anticipation of concealed carry, I believe they would also prohibit OC as well. Still, in Michigan, as long as it's not a declared "No carry zone" you can go in, and wait for them to ask to take your gun out. You won't be in trouble, unless you refuse to leave once you are asked.

    I went into a store that had a small, mostly transparent "No guns" sign, shopped around picked up a cart load of stuff, then, just before I was ready to check out, the manager came and asked if I'd seen their sign. I said, "What sign?" he then explained about the store's "no guns policy." I just said, "Oh, Ok."pushed the cart to one side, and walked out. I just love doing that.
    Think of the fun if you did the same [ adding if you have CPL ] say sorry and pull shirt over firearm and then push cart aside then walk out!

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Oh, I have a CPL, that's how I drive from one place to the next. Thing is, their sign was, as per usual, mostly directed at CPL holders. It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited." Mind you, I'm paraphrasing to a degree, but that's the essence of what the sign said.
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    Oh, I have a CPL, that's how I drive from one place to the next. Thing is, their sign was, as per usual, mostly directed at CPL holders. It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited." Mind you, I'm paraphrasing to a degree, but that's the essence of what the sign said.
    Question is does any one know the law on open to the public in Michigan ? remember if you can be ticketed for drunk or RD in parking lot! MIP also

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    To further cause confusion we have all seen [ not responsible for injury ,theft , shopping cart damage] knowing that bull ! In michigan I do not believe they if open to public can post or enforce no gun unless as stated in firearm laws of Michigan

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    As long as it's private property, Open to the public does not matter in regards to denying rights to us gun toters. When it comes to rights, we're among the last of the 2nd class citizens. The only way for us to fight back, is with our pocket books/wallets.

    Someone doesn't want me to bring my gun into their store, fine, I don't go into their store at all. I will find what I want, somewhere else, where they don't mind my being armed in their place of business.

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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    As long as it's private property, Open to the public does not matter in regards to denying rights to us gun toters. When it comes to rights, we're among the last of the 2nd class citizens. The only way for us to fight back, is with our pocket books/wallets.

    Someone doesn't want me to bring my gun into their store, fine, I don't go into their store at all. I will find what I want, somewhere else, where they don't mind my being armed in their place of business.
    Money works jest saying a good class action opens many doors

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Of course, first we need someone who's willing to risk the arrest for trespass. Because I think that's what you're gonna need before you can start the suit.


    Big Gay Al
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    YOU have nice pink site people is power

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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited."
    Now I wonder if you could use the argument, "I have a CPL so this doesnt apply to me."? More of a joke, but all the same.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Big Gay Al wrote:
    It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited."
    Now I wonder if you could use the argument, "I have a CPL so this doesnt apply to me."? More of a joke, but all the same.
    You'd likely have them puzzled for a few moments, while they tried to figure that one out.
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Big Gay Al wrote:
    It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited."
    Now I wonder if you could use the argument, "I have a CPL so this doesnt apply to me."? More of a joke, but all the same.
    You'd likely have them puzzled for a few moments, while they tried to figure that one out.
    Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted

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    taxwhat wrote:

    Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
    I believe he would say that a CCW anda CPL are the same thing, and therefore any private property CPL restriction applies. Which is what the store owner would be confused about.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:

    Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
    I believe he would say that a CCW anda CPL are the same thing, and therefore any private property CPL restriction applies. Which is what the store owner would be confused about.
    Not to be disrectful you must ask to be sure if in a crusade you must participate or sit on side line

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:

    Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
    I believe he would say that a CCW anda CPL are the same thing, and therefore any private property CPL restriction applies. Which is what the store owner would be confused about.
    I'm sure that's what they'd say. I've seen dozens of instances where CCW and CPL are used interchangeably, even in official state documents. In fact, you will find in § 28.421 of Michigan's firearms laws, the following:

    Popular name: CCW
    And, you'll find it all throughout the rules booklet, so, I'd say, even if you manage to temporarily confuse the anti-gun business owner, they'll still say, something like, "No guns, means no guns." To which I answer, "Which means I don't spend my money here, and I tell all my friends and family too."
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    There is not much in the way of case law concerning the issue of 2nd amendment rights on private property. As a former Gov't teacher, I think an argument could be made that some insight on how the 2nd amendment and private property issues could be construed by looking at caselaw regarding private property and 1st amendment rights. I know that some may say that they are different, but for argument's sake, take a look at the following and give some feedback. I read the following and just substituted 2nd amendment whenever the 1st amendment was stated. What do you think???

    http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...ivate_property


    Also, regarding Michigan, see Woodland v. Michigan Citizen's Lobby, 1985

    The Michigan Supreme Court ruled in 1985 that neither the state constitution's free speech clause nor its provision granting citizens the powers of initiative and referendum prohibit mall owners from denying or restricting access to citizens exercising those rights. (Woodland v. Michigan Citizens Lobby)
    Seems this would apply to 2nd Amend. rights too. :X

    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd,

    Any idea of what relevant 1st amendment rulings there are for state owned private property, like a public university?

    I suspect those would be a good basis for challenging a university's no gun policy.

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    Not really that would be of much help... in regards to the 1st Amendment, limits on time/place (Free-speech-Zones) and even content (require that students who speak up for CC by e-mail or public debate be evaluated for a mental illness)have been declared constitutional by most state courts (courts outside of Michigan)

    I think there is a much larger hurdle to any headway regarding carry rights on campus than is apparent by looking at other states, though. In regards to public university governance, the Michigan Constitution confers a unique constitutional status on our public universities and their governing boards.
    (Federated Publications, Inc. v Board of Trustees of Michigan State University, 460 Mich 75, 82; 594 NW2d 491, 495 (1999).)

    The Supreme Court has described the governing boards’ status as “the highest form of juristic person known to the law, a constitutional corporation of independent authority, which, within the scope of its functions, is co-ordinate with and equal to that of the legislature.”
    (Board of Regents of the University of Michigan v Auditor General, 167 Mich 444, 450; 132 NW 1037, 1040 (1911).)

    As the Court explained in Federated: “This Court has long recognized that Const, art 8, sec. 5 and the analogous provisions of the previous constitutions limit the Legislature’s power. ‘[T]he legislature may not interfere with the management and control of’ universities. The constitution grants the governing boards authority over ‘the absolute management of the University and the exclusive control of all funds received for its use.’ The Court has ‘jealously guarded’ these powers from legislative interference.”
    (460 Mich at 86-87; 594 NW2d at 497)

    So, my (unprofessional) opinion is that the cases mentioned make it pretty difficult to change the Public University-carry situation. Perhaps the only way to really move things forward is to speak up and try to influence the trusties/board to change policy (very difficult, I know) (Or run for the position yourself; they're statewide positions)


    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    (Side note, I like this forum already. I thought I'd never find intelligent debate on the internet!)

    At the very least, you've given me some good starts for researching this, so thanks

    Now for a rebuttal. In Federated v. MSU, the Supreme Court also went on to cite two previous decisions:


    This Court has not, however, held that universities are exempt from all regulation. In Regents of the Univ of Michigan v Employment Relations Comm, 389 Mich 96, 108; 204 NW2d 218 (1973), we quoted Branum v Bd of Regents of the Univ of Michigan, 5 Mich App 134, 138-139; 145 NW2d 860 (1966):
    • It is the opinion of this Court that the legislature can validly exercise its police power for the welfare of the people of this State, and a constitutional corporation such as the board of regents of the University of Michigan can lawfully be affected thereby. The University of Michigan is an independent branch of the government of the State of Michigan, but it is not an island. Within the confines of the operation and the allocation of funds of the University, it is supreme. Without those confines, however, there is no reason to allow the regents to use their independence to thwart the clearly established public policy of the people of Michigan.
    Legislative regulation that clearly infringes on the university’s educational or financial autonomy must, therefore, yield to the university’s constitutional power.

    Although this doesn't entirely open the door, it would go a long way. The next question would be whether an agency of the state may enact it's own firearms policies. For example, is the Secretary of State's office allowed to enact a no firearms policy for their offices? Or is this inherently contradictory in the case of a CPL licensee who is authorized to "carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state."

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    nuxi,

    The Public Universities are required to follow SOME state laws; the recent Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, listed on the ballot as Proposal 2, prohibits state and local governments from "discriminating against or granting preferential treatment to any individual or group based on race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin." This affects how the University of Michigan and other public schools select their students and also public employment & contracting. When the school tried to force the court to issue an injunction, they were denied.

    In the documents concerning the injunction to stop implementation of the proposal, UofM argued that they control all decisions regarding educational benefit and tried to use this justification as grounds for the injunction, saying that such programs are under their jurisdiction based on that educational benefit clause; they would probably use the same argument in regards to firearms on campus.

    They are not alone in the belief that state law has no impact on other branches of Government. Also, the district courts have argued that they are immune from the state CPL law, believing they are not required to allow weapons into buildings administered by the court, as it is prohibited based on a 2001 administrative order by the Michigan Supreme Court, not on legislation. However, this year Circuit Judge Michael Smith ordered the "no guns" signs removed at the courthouse in downtown Hillsdale, saying the ban is against state law. Smith said that courthouses are not exempt from state concealed-weapons laws, so there's no way to lawfully stop people from carrying a concealed weapon if they're licensed properly.

    So, I guess the only way to truly know is to find someone who has standing, perhaps you if you are a student there, and challenge UofM's rules in court.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Just a note, Judge Smith did issue a clarification, saying that the building was not exempt, but the courtroom was. And so guns are still not allowed in Hillsdale County courtrooms.

    I'd be interested to see how far this goes, since the Lansing Police HQ has been declared a gun free zone and is covered with metal detectors, based on there being court rooms in the building.
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