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Private Propety Rights

Rob Washeleski

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This question has come up before in various forms, but I want to ask it again. A store open to the public is private property, but what can they do to restrict OC? I understand that they have private property rights, but since they are open to the public they can't refuse service based on race, religion, etc. How does that apply to OC? The next hurdle I see for us who OC is that people might get savvy to the fact that they can just ask us to leave. It would be a shame if after all this companies just start implementing sweeping policies banning guns on their property. Know what I mean? Then you can OC outside only. I think that PDs that are against us just might start telling local businesses to refuse service. Your thoughts?

-Rob
 

Michigander

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AZ is the prime example of what happens. A bunch of stores post no weapons signs, some don't post signs but still ask you to leave, but the majority of them just don't care.

It's their private property, their right to kick us out, and our moral obligation to shop elsewhere rather than disarm and support jerks.
 

Michigander

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It is true with Michigan having such a job hungry economy that OCing might not cause as many problems at businesses as it might have 10 years ago.
 

Big Gay Al

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I have seen businesses post no guns signs, although most of them are posted in anticipation of concealed carry, I believe they would also prohibit OC as well. Still, in Michigan, as long as it's not a declared "No carry zone" you can go in, and wait for them to ask to take your gun out. You won't be in trouble, unless you refuse to leave once you are asked.

I went into a store that had a small, mostly transparent "No guns" sign, shopped around picked up a cart load of stuff, then, just before I was ready to check out, the manager came and asked if I'd seen their sign. I said, "What sign?" he then explained about the store's "no guns policy." I just said, "Oh, Ok."pushed the cart to one side, and walked out. :) I just love doing that. :D
 

taxwhat

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Big Gay Al wrote:
I have seen businesses post no guns signs, although most of them are posted in anticipation of concealed carry, I believe they would also prohibit OC as well. Still, in Michigan, as long as it's not a declared "No carry zone" you can go in, and wait for them to ask to take your gun out. You won't be in trouble, unless you refuse to leave once you are asked.

I went into a store that had a small, mostly transparent "No guns" sign, shopped around picked up a cart load of stuff, then, just before I was ready to check out, the manager came and asked if I'd seen their sign. I said, "What sign?" he then explained about the store's "no guns policy." I just said, "Oh, Ok."pushed the cart to one side, and walked out. :) I just love doing that. :D
Think of the fun if you did the same [ adding if you have CPL ] say sorry and pull shirt over firearm and then push cart aside then walk out!
 

Big Gay Al

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Oh, I have a CPL, that's how I drive from one place to the next. ;) Thing is, their sign was, as per usual, mostly directed at CPL holders. It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited." Mind you, I'm paraphrasing to a degree, but that's the essence of what the sign said.
 

taxwhat

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Big Gay Al wrote:
Oh, I have a CPL, that's how I drive from one place to the next. ;) Thing is, their sign was, as per usual, mostly directed at CPL holders. It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited." Mind you, I'm paraphrasing to a degree, but that's the essence of what the sign said.
Question is does any one know the law on open to the public in Michigan ? remember if you can be ticketed for drunk or RD in parking lot! MIP also
 

taxwhat

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To further cause confusion we have all seen [ not responsible for injury ,theft , shopping cart damage] knowing that bull ! In michigan I do not believe they if open to public can post or enforce no gun unless as stated in firearm laws of Michigan
 

Big Gay Al

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As long as it's private property, Open to the public does not matter in regards to denying rights to us gun toters. When it comes to rights, we're among the last of the 2nd class citizens. The only way for us to fight back, is with our pocket books/wallets.

Someone doesn't want me to bring my gun into their store, fine, I don't go into their store at all. I will find what I want, somewhere else, where they don't mind my being armed in their place of business.
 

taxwhat

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Big Gay Al wrote:
As long as it's private property, Open to the public does not matter in regards to denying rights to us gun toters. When it comes to rights, we're among the last of the 2nd class citizens. The only way for us to fight back, is with our pocket books/wallets.

Someone doesn't want me to bring my gun into their store, fine, I don't go into their store at all. I will find what I want, somewhere else, where they don't mind my being armed in their place of business.
Money works jest saying a good class action opens many doors
 

Big Gay Al

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Of course, first we need someone who's willing to risk the arrest for trespass. Because I think that's what you're gonna need before you can start the suit.
 

Tucker6900

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Big Gay Al wrote:
It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited."
Now I wonder if you could use the argument, "I have a CPL so this doesnt apply to me."? More of a joke, but all the same.
 

Big Gay Al

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Tucker6900 wrote:
Big Gay Al wrote:
It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited."
Now I wonder if you could use the argument, "I have a CPL so this doesnt apply to me."? More of a joke, but all the same.
You'd likely have them puzzled for a few moments, while they tried to figure that one out. :)
 

taxwhat

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Big Gay Al wrote:
Tucker6900 wrote:
Big Gay Al wrote:
It even went to so far as to say "even those lawfully carried with CCW permit are prohibited."
Now I wonder if you could use the argument, "I have a CPL so this doesnt apply to me."? More of a joke, but all the same.
You'd likely have them puzzled for a few moments, while they tried to figure that one out. :)
Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
 

Tucker6900

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taxwhat wrote:
Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
I believe he would say that a CCW anda CPL are the same thing, and therefore any private property CPL restriction applies. Which is what the store owner would be confused about.
 

taxwhat

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Tucker6900 wrote:
taxwhat wrote:
Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
I believe he would say that a CCW anda CPL are the same thing, and therefore any private property CPL restriction applies. Which is what the store owner would be confused about.
Not to be disrectful you must ask to be sure if in a crusade you must participate or sit on side line
 

Big Gay Al

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Tucker6900 wrote:
taxwhat wrote:
Ask that of your county prosecutor of that scenario the answer should be posted
I believe he would say that a CCW anda CPL are the same thing, and therefore any private property CPL restriction applies. Which is what the store owner would be confused about.
I'm sure that's what they'd say. I've seen dozens of instances where CCW and CPL are used interchangeably, even in official state documents. In fact, you will find in § 28.421 of Michigan's firearms laws, the following:

Popular name: CCW
And, you'll find it all throughout the rules booklet, so, I'd say, even if you manage to temporarily confuse the anti-gun business owner, they'll still say, something like, "No guns, means no guns." To which I answer, "Which means I don't spend my money here, and I tell all my friends and family too."
 

DrTodd

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There is not much in the way of case law concerning the issue of 2nd amendment rights on private property. As a former Gov't teacher, I think an argument could be made that some insight on how the 2nd amendment and private property issues could be construed by looking at caselaw regarding private property and 1st amendment rights. I know that some may say that they are different, but for argument's sake, take a look at the following and give some feedback. I read the following and just substituted 2nd amendment whenever the 1st amendment was stated. What do you think???

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/assembly/topic.aspx?topic=private_property


Also, regarding Michigan, see Woodland v. Michigan Citizen's Lobby, 1985

The Michigan Supreme Court ruled in 1985 that neither the state constitution's free speech clause nor its provision granting citizens the powers of initiative and referendum prohibit mall owners from denying or restricting access to citizens exercising those rights. (Woodland v. Michigan Citizens Lobby)
Seems this would apply to 2nd Amend. rights too. :X
 
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