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Thread: How to convince employer to allow carrying? Currently prohibited

  1. #1
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    I work for a company whose employee conduct regulations prohibit carrying any kind of firearms onto any company property! Technically even having a weapon locked in the trunk of my car would be an offense if they own the parking lot (don't think they do).

    I am in Washington and the state allows open carry and CC with a permit.

    Has anyone had luck convincing their employers to change such policies? What's the right way to go about doing it?

    I heard that there was a ruckus in the HR department because of an email I sent earlier asking about these regulations, and specifically asking whether I can keep my gun in employee lockers. Because of this I don't think they are very friendly to guns. Nevertheless, I would like to try to ask for the regulations to be changed.

    Any advice? They say it's for employee safety, but of course that's nonsense. Bad guys will CC anyway if they are going to commit a crime, so the policy just hurts us good guys.

    I think the company might employ armed security guards, though. That would be a contradiction of their regulations; does anyone think that is leverage to get the rules changed? It's not likely to do much good, but I could force them to visit the issue by filing a complaint about the security guard, alleging a violation of the conduct regulations. Then while they are considering the issue perhaps I can get them to drop the regulation entirely?

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    You might give it some long, hard thought.

    It seems to me I've heard of a gun-owner being blacklisted at work or fired or harassed onpretext for pushing it. I can'trecall any details, though.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    Check your state laws and Constitution. Here in Louisiana, the interior of one's car is considered an extension of one's home and carrying a gun in the car is a constitutionally protected activity. We recently also had a "guns in the parking lot" law passed which prohibits employers from banning guns in your locked vehicle on their parking lot (there are some exceptions, you can read about it in the LA forum).

    I seriously doubt that you will change your employer's mind. Companies that are against employees having guns are usually liability minded and will not change the rules. You might try arguing that by prohibiting employee guns, they implicitly take up the burden of protecting employees from all security threats that an armed employee would otherwise be able to protect himself against, thereby openning up themselves to a different liability. This argument rarely works, but is worth a try.

    The armed security you spoke of will not likely make any difference to your employer in this matter. Most armed security is contracted out, and the contracting security companyassumes the liability for anything untoward that might happen. If the armed security personnel are employees of your employer, then you may have some argument, or you may ask if you can volunteer to be a part of a discreet volunteer employee security program.

    Good luck.


    Edited to correct atrociously bad typing.

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    I retired from Exxon Marketingin Baton Rouge in 1997. I fought, begged and finally threatened a lawsuit about keeping protection in my car.

    The closest I got then was that the refinery down the street would hold our weapons whilst we worked. I threatened a lawsuit over that but retired before it was settled. Yes....they TRIED to fire me with six months to go, but I beat that.

    You must ask yourself if it is worth it. It was to me.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    It's hard to know the details of your situation. But, it would seem to me that filing a complain won't win anybody to your side. If they do find it necessary to change policy, they will likely just include an exception for guards.

    But, I do think people need to start requesting their employers to respect their rights. Do you work for a corporation? If not, do you know the owner? The truth is, allowing employees to be armed is in most any companies' best interest. What you need to do is convince someone with authority that this is the case.

    This is a site that's good for some of the people from whom you might encounter resistance, IMO:

    http://freestudents.blogspot.com/200...ns-gun_20.html

    Edit: People act like "liability" is some iron wall against which there can be never by any progress made. The truth is, people determine what policies are likely to reduce potential liability (even if those people are a committee). People make their decisions based on what they see and reason. The reality is that employees are so terrified of losing their job/career that they are rarely willing to demand the necessary respect from their employers. With so few people asking, policy-makers can only assume that only unstable employees would want to carry a firearm. If enough people demand their rights, those policy-makers may begin to realize that the liability is actually greater with a no guns policy.

    What's more important: your job, or your life?

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    Nope. Didn't have a bit of luck at all. Actually, it turned out worse than expected.

    The company I work for also prohibits any firearms anywhere on company property (even the parking lot). I recently received my CHL and sometimes ride a bicycle to work, so I wanted to find out if the company was receptive to discussion about loosening the restriction a little bit, perhaps getting some lockers at the security offices or something similar (cuz I'm not gonna try to cable-lock my handgun to my bike).

    Yeah, they agreed to discuss it. They suggested a phone conference where they laid it down very clearly. The answer would be NO. You can read about it in this thread:

    deepdiverhad some great advice:

    deepdiver wrote:
    I'm guessing that if you argue for CC at work that you are going to be fighting a losing battle. From the employers standpoint, they are unlikely to be held legally responsible for someone barging in with a gun and shooting up the place, especially given that they have security in place which a BG is going to have to neutralize or circumvent to obtain access.

    I think the better argument (yes on some things I am an incrementalist and on most things a pragmatist) is to argue for a firearm check in at the security gate. There is nothing in place now to stop someone to carry up TO the security checkpoint. Anyone could pull up to that checkpoint armed and use a firearm illegally. Allowing employees to carry up to that point and then check their firearm does not change the company liability in that regard at all nor does it pose any increased risk to any other employee or visitor.

    You, and I'm sure others, carry a firearm when not at work for personal defense. If not for their employment rules you would carry to and from work for personal protection. If you do not carry to and from work and that 1% chance of you being the victim of a violent crime were to occur the company will certainly incur costs. You will hit the medical insurance hard which could have later repercussions in rates. You will have lost time at work which will cost the company money temporarily replacing you or shifting work loads while an employee short. You could conceivably receive injuries in such a scenario that would cause a disability they would be required to accommodate under the Disability Act which might be costly.

    The State of Oregon has seen fit to issue you a concealed carry license/permit. The very fact that such licenses/permits are available indicates that the legislature finds them of value to society and individual citizens. You and other licensees have passed a criminal background check for felonies and misdemeanors and have proven proficiency with your sidearm to be so licensed. You earned your concealed license to protect yourself where legal and their policy denies you the ability to do so off company property on the way to and from work as you have no way to store the firearm prior to entering company property.

    Lastly, you respect their private property rights to deny carry on company property. You only ask that they respect your right to carry the means of self-defense on the way to and from company property and accommodate that right with a means to secure your firearms in a mutually acceptable, safe manner prior to entering upon their private property.

    Just my thoughts from a practical stand point rather than from a "rights" or idealistic standpoint.
    I'm planning on re-trying my attack (better prepared next time) on my company's policies again, once I'm better prepared from all angles. Hopefully I won't get stuck talking to the same moron again.

    ...Good luck with yours...

    ...Orygunner...

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    Concealed is concealed is concealed. You aren't breaking the law while carrying, what your employer doesn't know can't hurt them. If you ever have to use it the reason will be more important than your job.

    Don't ask them about it, just gives them reason to scrutinize everything you do.

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    ScottyT wrote:
    Concealed is concealed is concealed. You aren't breaking the law while carrying, what your employer doesn't know can't hurt them. If you ever have to use it the reason will be more important than your job.

    Don't ask them about it, just gives them reason to scrutinize everything you do.
    Exactly. I don't know what my company's policy is on guns, but I know what mine is & I carry my damned gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

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    Founder's Club Member OC-Glock19's Avatar
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    Ask management if you can post this sign on the premises:



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    Good points, ScottyT. Now that I've asked them about it, I'm afraid my company has me under closer scrutiny, and may decide on a "random" search of my person one of these days, so I won't risk bringing it in to work.

    While I'll grant there is always achance that a wacked-out employee or someone pissed at the company will come into my workplaceand start shooting people (There is NOTHING to stop them except a little security "cattle gate", easy to push through or step over),I believe it's relativelysafe for me to be unarmed as a individual at my work.

    I'm about as far from an entrance as I can get, there's multiple escape routes in different directions, lots of cube walls for concealment, and plenty of other cannon fodder available. I believe I would at least make an attempt to get a look at the shooter if I could keep escape routes available.

    Because if a workplace shooting WERE to ever happen here, I would make sure to make it publicly known to all media that I had a direct line of sight and could have stopped the shooter if the asinine company policy had not disarmed me, and that I would hope victims would hold the company liable for A) Not taking proper security measures to prevent it, and B) Disarming those of us who would be responsible for protecting ourselves and others.

    I have a hunch (after some "between the lines" wink-wink nudge-nudgeconversations) that one of my co-workers DOES carry concealed at work. Perhaps I'll make a beeline for his cubicle if the SHTF.

    If I worked a more common job like Mini-Mart cashier or delivery driver, screw company policy, I'm going to carry. But where I'm at, I honestly believe my odds of being discovered and lose a great job far outweigh the chance I'll get myself shot.

    ...Orygunner...



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    xiphoris like you I'm in the same situation, same state. Send me a PM so we can link up and discuss this further.

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    We don't have a policy in our office, but I know at least one guy carries, and at least 5 others keep guns in their cars. The one guy who carries never said a word to the boss, and I don't know that anyone else knows or cares.

    It's Louisiana. Guns are part of the culture.

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    Orygunner wrote:
    Good points, ScottyT. Now that I've asked them about it, I'm afraid my company has me under closer scrutiny, and may decide on a "random" search of my person one of these days, so I won't risk bringing it in to work.

    While I'll grant there is always achance that a wacked-out employee or someone pissed at the company will come into my workplaceand start shooting people (There is NOTHING to stop them except a little security "cattle gate", easy to push through or step over),I believe it's relativelysafe for me to be unarmed as a individual at my work.

    I'm about as far from an entrance as I can get, there's multiple escape routes in different directions, lots of cube walls for concealment, and plenty of other cannon fodder available. I believe I would at least make an attempt to get a look at the shooter if I could keep escape routes available.

    Because if a workplace shooting WERE to ever happen here, I would make sure to make it publicly known to all media that I had a direct line of sight and could have stopped the shooter if the asinine company policy had not disarmed me, and that I would hope victims would hold the company liable for A) Not taking proper security measures to prevent it, and B) Disarming those of us who would be responsible for protecting ourselves and others.

    I have a hunch (after some "between the lines" wink-wink nudge-nudgeconversations) that one of my co-workers DOES carry concealed at work. Perhaps I'll make a beeline for his cubicle if the SHTF.

    If I worked a more common job like Mini-Mart cashier or delivery driver, screw company policy, I'm going to carry. But where I'm at, I honestly believe my odds of being discovered and lose a great job far outweigh the chance I'll get myself shot.

    ...Orygunner...

    I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Where do they get off thinking they can search your person? Where I work, on occasion the "security" desk at the front entrance will conduct a cursory search of you bags or briefcases, but never your person. And they can't search your car even when on company property. How are they going to do that? If you don't let them, they can't detain you because that would be in violation of the law. Call 911 and tell them you are being detained and accosted by people. How would they stop you from just driving away?

    Our company has "polices", too. But there are limitations and boundries I am not willing to compromise. They never push and I don't advertise.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I would update my resume and send it out. Go to a few interviews. If the boss asks why tell him and see what he can do for you.

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    vinnie wrote:
    I would update my resume and send it out. Go to a few interviews. If the boss asks why tell him and see what he can do for you.
    "Just find another job!!" That idea sounds so simple in theory. I've been with my company 9.5 years with great benefits & pay. My current job skills are very specific and not easily found out on the market. While I don't like or agree with the policy, I did suggest some changes to the overall building security. Some of those changes are being adopted but they refuse to budge on the employees carrying or locking them up in personal vehicles on company property. I get around the vehicle issue by parking in another garage 2 blocks down.


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    Where do they get off thinking they can search your person?
    They can't forcibly search your person. It's just that the employment contract states that employees will be terminated if they don't consent.

    And they can't search your car even when on company property. How are they going to do that? ... How would they stop you from just driving away?
    They wouldn't. But they would stop you from coming into work the next day and collecting a paycheck

    It is their right, after all. Just like if someone brought a gun into your house without your permission, you could kick him out, so too can employers ask you to (i) not bring a gun (ii) consent to searches, or not work there anymore.

    I just think it's the right thing to do for them to allow it.

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    xiphoris wrote:
    I work for a company whose employee conduct regulations prohibit carrying any kind of firearms onto any company property! Technically even having a weapon locked in the trunk of my car would be an offense if they own the parking lot (don't think they do).

    I am in Washington and the state allows open carry and CC with a permit.

    Has anyone had luck convincing their employers to change such policies? What's the right way to go about doing it?

    I heard that there was a ruckus in the HR department because of an email I sent earlier asking about these regulations, and specifically asking whether I can keep my gun in employee lockers. Because of this I don't think they are very friendly to guns. Nevertheless, I would like to try to ask for the regulations to be changed.

    Any advice? They say it's for employee safety, but of course that's nonsense. Bad guys will CC anyway if they are going to commit a crime, so the policy just hurts us good guys.

    I think the company might employ armed security guards, though. That would be a contradiction of their regulations; does anyone think that is leverage to get the rules changed? It's not likely to do much good, but I could force them to visit the issue by filing a complaint about the security guard, alleging a violation of the conduct regulations. Then while they are considering the issue perhaps I can get them to drop the regulation entirely?
    I don't know if it will help but....

    Suggest strongly to them that if you are hurt or injured while going to/from or while at work in a situation that a defensive tool like a handgun would have been benefitial that you and your family members or your survivorsWILL be naming the company as a defendant since they have prohibited you from having thelegal tools available and at your disposal. The blanket ban including your vehicle DOES affect you in more locales that JUST the work location....

    In a crisis where people are dying NOW, your security guard is only minutes away!!!!

    Please remember that IANAL....

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    I need to be more clear excuse me. I didn't say FIND another job. I said start looking. Especially if your job skills are specific. That makes you harder to replace.
    I had a professor 9whohad been out in the real world and gone far, was teaching as a hobby) to go to a job interview at least every 2 years just for practice. If you get a better offer great! Take it or renegotiate with your company. It will get your boss's attention.

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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    I've found that most upper management does not understand the concept of security in general.

    Case in point: remember the Anthrax scare a few years back? My company considered itself a possible target for such an attack and decided that our mail distribution point needed to be relocated. It was a group of cubbyholes along a wall of one of the main work areas. After they moved it, it was located RIGHT NEXT TO THE MAIN AIR INTAKE FOR THE A/C FOR THE ENTIRE BUILDING. So, now, instead of threatening 40 employees, it threatens the entire 200 person workforce. When I pointed this out to management, they shrugged it off. In their minds, they had already adressed the threat as they saw it.

    If you have union representation or some sort of professional association, perhaps you could get them to offer to fund a professional security study of the workplace. Management often has more respect for the opinions of outside consultants than from staff - a sad but true situation in most industries these days. Being presented with a detailed case study by Blackwater or some such company showing the benefits of responsibly armed employees MIGHT make a difference. Our experience during Hurricane Katrina has convinced management to alter our disaster plan to include hiring armed security during any future hurricane. Those of us with personal weapons were astounded to learn that the company trusted unknown, armed outsiders more than they trusted us; but at least some protection is better than no protection.

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    Suggest strongly to them that if you are hurt or injured while going to/from or while at work in a situation that a defensive tool like a handgun would have been benefitial that you and your family members or your survivors WILL be naming the company as a defendant since they have prohibited you from having the legal tools available and at your disposal. The blanket ban including your vehicle DOES affect you in more locales that JUST the work location....
    I was informed by the head of security and HR that even if I was allowed to carry I would more than likely be dismissed for using it in defense of myself or of others (remember the Pizza Hut driver?). So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. One on one the head of security informed me that they lease the garage they allow the public to park there as well but have no authority to inspect vehicles unless they had due cause and a warrant. I however will not take the chance and will continue to park elsewhere since the company policy does NOT allow me to lock it in my vehicle on company property.
    My company is so anal on this I got sent to the director of HR because I was wearing a empty Serpa holster for my 1911 during the empty holster protest going on at the University of Washington.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    xiphoris wrote:
    Where do they get off thinking they can search your person?
    They can't forcibly search your person. It's just that the employment contract states that employees will be terminated if they don't consent.

    And they can't search your car even when on company property. How are they going to do that? ... How would they stop you from just driving away?
    They wouldn't. But they would stop you from coming into work the next day and collecting a paycheck

    It is their right, after all. Just like if someone brought a gun into your house without your permission, you could kick him out, so too can employers ask you to (i) not bring a gun (ii) consent to searches, or not work there anymore.

    I just think it's the right thing to do for them to allow it.
    Yes sir, I know that a company certainly can terminate an employee for any reason or no reason at all in an "employment at will" state (Virginia is one). My approach with my post was more along the lines of the legal aspects. Private companies have no policing power, so they cannot forcibly detain you. Sure, they can fire you.. so it's best not to advertise your choices.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    M1Gunr wrote:
    "xiphoris like you I'm in the same situation"
    Me too! can't carry towork on base, burns my ass. In the Armed Forces and can't be Armed. WTF?
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    Or THIS one!



  24. #24
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I did make progress at my company. Some of my security suggestions are going in effect and I got them to put up a "open" bulletin board to post anything. I now post on a weekly basis 10-15 of the Washington Gun Rights pamphlets. At first I thought they were being removed by some anti but I later found out folks are interested and I've had those folks stop by my table at lunch and ask me questions.

    Washington Gun Rights Pamphlet:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=2014

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    Many years ago, I worked for a V.W. engine rebuilding company in Van Nuys that had a "NO GUNS EVER!" policy. One day for no particular reason, I brought the topic up at an employee meeting. This was back when I was 21, LONG before the "VA Tech" trend started. I just bought my first Colt .45 ACP because I could legally buy a gun now, and I was beginning to train at a local indoor range.

    I brought the gun to work one day, UNLOADED, just to show my fellow workers ... and my boss. He told me, "Take that home NOW, and don't EVER let me see you with a gun here again! Bring it in tomorrow and you're FIRED!"

    At the employee meeting, I told the "suits" that I thought it was a STUPID idea to demand that the work area remain "gun-free" and even MORE STUPID to publicly advertise that fact with his "You're SAFE Here!" sign depicting a pistol silhouette with the red circle and line across, in an effort to win over the public.

    So time goes by, and something BAD happens to an order so that it is basically "FUBAR", and someone calls up and SCREAMS at the answering machine about how this has cost him so much, and how "somebody's gonna pay...". The boss wanted the employees to know that we had made some customer very unhappy, so he played the recording over the P.A. system so all of the employees could hear it.

    (roughly quoted) "You f****** are gonna DIE! Me an' my home boys are gonna F you up and bust a cap in your a****! ..."

    Upon hearing this, I calmly packed up my tools and placed them onto a cart. I was wheeling the cart to my V.W. van when my boss stopped me. "Where are YOU going?" he demanded. I told him I quit, and was going to look for another job. He walked alongside me trying to convince me to stay, because I was their fastest long block assembler and the company was under a deadline to deliver a large order. I told him, "Nope, not after hearing THAT recording! SEE YA!"

    As I rolled my tools out to the van, a big, old thumping Chevy low rider rolled into the parking lot. Four ..er ... young men of obvious inner-city upbringing ... were in the car. My boss turned white as a ghost. I told him, "Oh, I wouldn't worry. It probably wasn't THEM that called." I left the company and never returned.

    Fortunately nothing newsworthy happened, but even MY heart skipped a beat when that car pulled into the lot. Strangely, all I could think about was that I hadn't told anyone to give my gun to my best friend, Manuel.

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