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The Redistribution of Wealth.

Bear 45/70

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A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words redistribution of wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in school.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?' She eplied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over.'

Her wise father asked his daughter, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask ! him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired
back, 'That's a crazy idea, and how would that be fair! I've worked really
hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work!
Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican party.'

If anyone has a better explanation of the difference between Republican and Democrat, I'm all ears.
 

just_a_car

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This is an old story that I've heard time and again. Unfortunately, that's only the financial and tax/Gov't-program stance of the party. I agree with the father in the story, but find that I don't always agree with the Republican Party; while I find myself agreeing more with the Libertarians.

So, at a "basic" level, that differentiates between the "Big Two" parties, but doesn't take into account the other parties.
 

scarlett1125

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First point: Bear posts thisstuff because he sees the relationship between OCing and the other problems we face as a country.

Second point: The example only works when the government treats us all equally. unfortunately, there are too many loopholes for the rich when it comes to taxes. But I'm one of those who believes that withholding is illegal anyway. The practice of taxing us for everything is little more than a government-sponsored get-rich-quick scheme that benefits only a select few. If you have enough money, you can sway the government to your side (which is why it no longer really maters who you vote for). The system isn't fair and, to date, no one on either side has developed a plan that would fit Bear's example in practical terms.
 

xiphoris

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If anyone has a better explanation of the difference between Republican and Democrat, I'm all ears.
Both parties strongly support the redistribution of wealth. The Democrats take your money and use it for bull@#$% social programs. The Republicans take your money and use it for bull@#$% wars. I don't think there is much of a difference between the parties at all. Compared to the kind of differences seen in other countries, the US parties are very similar.

In any case, the issues are not so clean-cut. Not all social programs are bad. We all like police, fire protection, and roads, right? The bad social programs are ones that give something for nothing, like most welfare programs. The government shouldn't be in the business of giving charity. There's a good story about Davy Crockett on that.

However, I feel that certain programs should be sponsored by the government because of the devastating impact on someone's life by certain events. Police and fire protection are good examples. I also am closely looking at the idea of health care, simply because a person's life is ruined if they get very sick and don't have health insurance. I don't think the government should give it for free -- it should be part of the taxes a person pays.

In general I think redistribution of wealth is a terrible idea. We already have a nearly optimal natural mechanism for this: it's called the market. However, it make sense for the government to provide some services as social programs.
 

Nozoki

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I get it. All Republicans are hardworking, dedicated, responsible go-getters, and all Liberals are lazy, stupid, irresponsible slackers. How witty. Har, har, har.
 

Bookman

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Nozoki wrote:
I get it. All Republicans are hardworking, dedicated, responsible go-getters, and all Liberals are lazy, stupid, irresponsible slackers. How witty. Har, har, har.
You just don't get it, do you? While we should land aid to those unable to help themselves, those unwilling to do so should be left to their own devices. We aren't heartless. We just don't see the point in supporting people who are too lazy to get off their collective butts and get a job. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Edit: BTW - I'm not a Republican. I'm a moderate who doesn't think either major party has all the answers.
 

Triple Tap

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So in your mind all people with disabilities should not get any help? We should just take care of our own. Even if it wasnt thier fault? at what line do we need to draw a stop to helping fellow human being, a neighbor?.
 

Gene Beasley

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M1Gunr wrote:
until we get some local moderator accounts back, it looks as though we will have to put up with what ever gets posted.
It appears that some moderation is taking place. There was a thread, "What am I missing" that is not there anymore - not just closed; gone. It was another quickly devolving political only thread. Thank you John - as I understand he is the only one doing the administration.
 

xiphoris

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So in your mind all people with disabilities should not get any help? We should just take care of our own. Even if it wasnt thier fault? at what line do we need to draw a stop to helping fellow human being, a neighbor?.
Helping people is a good thing, and I would encourage all of my friends and family to be generous and help those in need. However, there is a big difference between personal charity and governmental charity. It is not the province of the government to provide charity. The government exists to manage responsibilities in my mind -- they have responsibilities and authority.

It may not be the fault of a disabled person that he is disabled, but it is certainly not the fault of the government or any other taxpayer. Accordingly, it is not the government's responsibility (here, meaning liability) to support this person. The government should only be involved in protecting the rights of individuals and helping society as a whole. The hypothetical disabled person has no right to take money from other citizens or the government; thus, the government has no business providing charity to the person.

Rather than try to explain more myself, I would invite readers to explore this story by Davy Crockett, which I will post to the forum in the next message.

Ultimately, the point is that the government does not have constitutional authority to appropriate money for charity. The Constitution strictly limits the things the government is allowed to do -- and charity is not one. Individuals should be as charitable as they wish, but it is not the place of government to take from everyone in the land and give as charity to some.
 

xiphoris

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[align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]From The Life of Colonel David Crockett,
by Edward S. Ellis (Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884)
[/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]Crockett was then the lion of Washington. I was a great admirer of his character, and, having several friends who were intimate with him, I found no difficulty in making his acquaintance. I was fascinated with him, and he seemed to take a fancy to me. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I was one day in the lobby of the House of Representatives when a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support – rather, as I thought, because it afforded the speakers a fine opportunity for display than from the necessity of convincing anybody, for it seemed to me that everybody favored it. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose. Everybody expected, of course, that he was going to make one of his characteristic speeches in support of the bill. He commenced: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Mr. Speaker – I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him. This government can owe no debts but for services rendered, and at a stipulated price. If it is a debt, how much is it? Has it been audited, and the amount due ascertained? If it is a debt, this is not the place to present it for payment, or to have its merits examined. If it is a debt, we owe more than we can ever hope to pay, for we owe the widow of every soldier who fought in the War of 1812 precisely the same amount. There is a woman in my neighborhood, the widow of as gallant a man as ever shouldered a musket. He fell in battle. She is as good in every respect as this lady, and is as poor. She is earning her daily bread by her daily labor; but if I were to introduce a bill to appropriate five or ten thousand dollars for her benefit, I should be laughed at, and my bill would not get five votes in this House. There are thousands of widows in the country just such as the one I have spoken of, but we never hear of any of these large debts to them. Sir, this is no debt. The government did not owe it to the deceased when he was alive; it could not contract it after he died. I do not wish to be rude, but I must be plain. Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much of our own money as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks." [emphasis mine]
[/font]
[/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few votes, and, of course, was lost. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]Like many other young men, and old ones, too, for that matter, who had not thought upon the subject, I desired the passage of the bill, and felt outraged at its defeat. I determined that I would persuade my friend Crockett to move a reconsideration the next day. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]Previous engagements preventing me from seeing Crockett that night, I went early to his room the next morning and found him engaged in addressing and franking letters, a large pile of which lay upon his table. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I broke in upon him rather abruptly, by asking him what devil had possessed him to make that speech and defeat that bill yesterday. Without turning his head or looking up from his work, he replied: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"You see that I am very busy now; take a seat and cool yourself. I will be through in a few minutes, and then I will tell you all about it." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]He continued his employment for about ten minutes, and when he had finished he turned to me and said: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Now, sir, I will answer your question. But thereby hangs a tale, and one of considerable length, to which you will have to listen." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I listened, and this is the tale which I heard: [/font][/align] [font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. When we got there, I went to work, and I never worked as hard in my life as I did there for several hours. But, in spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many families made homeless, and, besides, some of them had lost all but the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be done for them, and everybody else seemed to feel the same way. [/font]
[align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as soon as it could be done. I said everybody felt as I did. That was not quite so; for, though they perhaps sympathized as deeply with the sufferers as I did, there were a few of the members who did not think we had the right to indulge our sympathy or excite our charity at the expense of anybody but ourselves. They opposed the bill, and upon its passage demanded the yeas and nays. There were not enough of them to sustain the call, but many of us wanted our names to appear in favor of what we considered a praiseworthy measure, and we voted with them to sustain it. So the yeas and nays were recorded, and my name appeared on the journals in favor of the bill. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]The next summer, when it began to be time to think about the election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I had no opposition there, but, as the election was some time off, I did not know what might turn up, and I thought it was best to let the boys know that I had not forgot them, and that going to Congress had not made me too proud to go to see them. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]So I put a couple of shirts and a few twists of tobacco into my saddlebags, and put out. I had been out about a week and had found things going very smoothly, when, riding one day in a part of my district in which I was more of a stranger than any other, I saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up I spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather coldly, and was about turning his horse for another furrow when I said to him: "Don't be in such a hurry, my friend; I want to have a little talk with you, and get better acquainted." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]He replied: "I am very busy, and have but little time to talk, but if it does not take too long, I will listen to what you have to say." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I began: "Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called candidates, and – " [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"'Yes, I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time or mine. I shall not vote for you again.' [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]This was a sockdolager... I begged him to tell me what was the matter. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Well, Colonel, it is hardly worthwhile to waste time or words upon it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you are wanting in honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend to avail myself of the privilege of the Constitution to speak plainly to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I intend by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be honest. But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon any constitutional question." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"No, Colonel, there's no mistake. Though I live here in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings of Congress. My papers say that last winter you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some sufferers by a fire in Georgetown. Is that true?" [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Certainly it is, and I thought that was the last vote which anybody in the world would have found fault with." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Well, Colonel, where do you find in the Constitution any authority to give away the public money in charity?" [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]Here was another sockdolager; for, when I began to think about it, I could not remember a thing in the Constitution that authorized it. I found I must take another tack, so I said: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Well, my friend; I may as well own up. You have got me there. But certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury, and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I did." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing to do with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week's pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life. The Congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I have given you an imperfect account of what he said. Long before he was through, I was convinced that I had done wrong. He wound up by saying: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and this man should go talking, he would set others to talking, and in that district I was a gone fawn-skin. I could not answer him, and the fact is, I did not want to. But I must satisfy him, and I said to him: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Well, my friend, you hit the nail upon the head when you said I had not sense enough to understand the Constitution. I intended to be guided by it, and thought I had studied it full. I have heard many speeches in Congress about the powers of Congress, but what you have said there at your plow has got more hard, sound sense in it than all the fine speeches I ever heard. If I had ever taken the view of it that you have, I would have put my head into the fire before I would have given that vote; and if you will forgive me and vote for me again, if I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be shot." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]He laughingly replied: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Yes, Colonel, you have sworn to that once before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You say that you are convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it will do more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around the district, you will tell people about this vote, and that you are satisfied it was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do what I can to keep down opposition, and, perhaps, I may exert some little influence in that way." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"If I don't," said I, "I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I am in earnest in what I say, I will come back this way in a week or ten days, and if you will get up a gathering of the people, I will make a speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section, but we have plenty of provisions to contribute for a barbecue, and some to spare for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days, and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. This is Thursday; I will see to getting it up on Saturday week. Come to my house on Friday, and we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see and hear you." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Well, I will be here. But one thing more before I say good-bye. I must know your name." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"My name is Bunce." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Not Horatio Bunce?" [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Yes." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before, though you say you have seen me; but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very proud that I may hope to have you for my friend. You must let me shake your hand before I go." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]We shook hands and parted. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled but little with the public, but was widely known for his remarkable intelligence and incorruptible integrity, and for a heart brimful and running over with kindness and benevolence, which showed themselves not only in words but in acts. He was the oracle of the whole country around him, and his fame had extended far beyond the circle of his immediate acquaintance. Though I had never met him before, I had heard much of him, and but for this meeting it is very likely I should have had opposition, and had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man could now stand up in that district under such a vote. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man I stayed all night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and a confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and, under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept him up until midnight, talking about the principles and affairs of government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got all my life before. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I have told you Mr. Bunce converted me politically. He came nearer converting me religiously than I had ever been before. He did not make a very good Christian of me, as you know; but he has wrought upon my mind a conviction of the truth of Christianity, and upon my feelings a reverence for its purifying and elevating power such as I had never felt before. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I have known and seen much of him since, for I respect him – no, that is not the word – I reverence and love him more than any living man, and I go to see him two or three times every year; and I will tell you, sir, if everyone who professes to be a Christian lived and acted and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of Christ would take the world by storm. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue, and, to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good many whom I had not known before, and they and my friend introduced me around until I had got pretty well acquainted – at least, they all knew me. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They gathered around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech by saying: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Fellow citizens – I present myself before you today feeling like a new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or prejudice, or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you. Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the appropriation as I have told it to you, and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I closed by saying: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"And now, fellow citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr. Bunce, convinced me of my error. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to the credit of it. And now I hope he is satisfied with his convert and that he will get up here and tell you so." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]He came upon the stand and said: [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Fellow citizens – It affords me great pleasure to comply with the request of Colonel Crockett. I have always considered him a thoroughly honest man, and I am satisfied that he will faithfully perform all that he has promised you today." [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]He went down, and there went up from the crowd such a shout for Davy Crockett as his name never called forth before. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man, and the honest, hearty shout they produced, is worth more to me than all the honors I have received and all the reputation I have ever made, or ever shall make, as a member of Congress. [/font][/align] [align=left][font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"Now, Sir," concluded Crockett, "you know why I made that speech yesterday. I have had several thousand copies of it printed and was directing them to my constituents when you came in. [/font][/align] [font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]"There is one thing now to which I will call your attention. You remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There are in that House many very wealthy men – men who think nothing of spending a week's pay, or a dozen of them for a dinner or a wine party when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the deceased – a debt which could not be paid by money, particularly so insignificant a sum as $10,000, when weighed against the honor of the nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it."[/font]
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
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Fairfax Co., VA
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xiphoris wrote:
[font="Times New Roman, Times, serif"]SNIP...there were a few of the members who did not think we had the right to indulge our sympathy or excite our charity at the expense of anybody but ourselves. [/font]
Have to memorize that phrase.

"No right to indulge your sympathy or excite your charity at the expense of others."

Which is really what some are doing. Indulging their sympathy.
 

Nozoki

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
71
Location
Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
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'She played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican party.'


Sorry, but that's the impression I got from your little morality play, based on that last line. I usually vote Democratic, and I'm a pretty liberal dude, but I also do not like giving my hard earned rewards away to those unwilling to help themselves. It's not a Republican/Democrat thing. It's a fairness/common sensething. I'm just tired of feeling like a turd in a punchbowl when I come onto gun forums and have to read all this Liberal bashing, like we are some evil group.

I am a gun owner not based on my political views, but based on the knowledge that I am ultimately responsible for my family's safety. I know severalconservatives (my wife for one) that are terrified of guns and would like them to allgo away. But I keep my gun anyway because I know the hard truths in life while she will blindly go through life thinking "it won't happen to me".

So anyway, my point is we should stop letting ourselves be divided by some horsesh*t 2-party nightmare that has been force-fed to us for the last hundred years. Let'slet our common goal of being decent human beings that can protect ourselves and our families from the real monsters that populate our planet be the real focus here. Maybe we can get more Liberals to join our fight if we stop treating them like they are an unwelcome pest.
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
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Nozoki wrote:
'She played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican party.'


Sorry, but that's the impression I got from your little morality play, based on that last line. I usually vote Democratic, and I'm a pretty liberal dude, but I also do not like giving my hard earned rewards away to those unwilling to help themselves. It's not a Republican/Democrat thing. It's a fairness/common sensething. I'm just tired of feeling like a turd in a punchbowl when I come onto gun forums and have to read all this Liberal bashing, like we are some evil group.

I am a gun owner not based on my political views, but based on the knowledge that I am ultimately responsible for my family's safety. I know severalconservatives (my wife for one) that are terrified of guns and would like them to allgo away. But I keep my gun anyway because I know the hard truths in life while she will blindly go through life thinking "it won't happen to me".

So anyway, my point is we should stop letting ourselves be divided by some horsesh*t 2-party nightmare that has been force-fed to us for the last hundred years. Let'slet our common goal of being decent human beings that can protect ourselves and our families from the real monsters that populate our planet be the real focus here. Maybe we can get more Liberals to join our fight if we stop treating them like they are an unwelcome pest.
Listen carefully nitwit, It was a joke. Get a frickin' sense of humor. :cuss:
 

s2ua7

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
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Location
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While the government may not be responsible for providing aid to those disabled, it does make them more productive members of society. For example, my Brother-In-Law(BIL) has Cystic Fibrosis. It is a NASTY genetic disorder that deals with the digestion of certain proteins and also includes a nasty side effect in which the lungs and heart deteriorate(sp?) until the heart fails or the lungs fill up with fluid causing the person to drowned. While my BIL has been confined to a wheel chair and unable to work for almost 7 years or so, thanks to a heart/lung transplant (paid for by the government through DSHS and Medicare/Medicade) he is now looking for a job, is able to get out and be self relient and will soon become a benifit to society, and although he may never come off of medical assistance (the bills for transplant medication are HUGE, some of them are several thousand for just one month) he should come off of the disability portion of welfare.

My family is another case in which Government assistance has helped. I have been the primary caregiver to my wife who had a cardiac condition known as Cardiomyopithy(sp?), which is a fancy word for an enlarged heart and something called P.A.T, and although I dont remember what it stands for, it means that she had a racing irregular heart beat. This caused her to go into heart failure which eventually caused her to have a stroke in '96, a cardiac arrest in '02 and eventually a heart transplant in '03. Which she has not had the recovery of her brother, and cannot work at this point, it has given me the chance to feel safe in leaving her at home unsupervised (to make sure that something didnt happen to her medically) to the point that I can go to college. June of this year I recieved my AA, and hopefully in the next 2 years I should have my BA in education. With that I should be able to get a job with good insurance. Again, the medications are the killer so I am unsure if we will be able to come off of the perscription part of welfare.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that I'm hoping to get to the point where we dont require as much of the government's assistance as we are currently on. That should be everyone's goal who is on governmental assistance, although I know that it is not always the case with most people. Most of the time I do vote conservatively, but I do understand the need for some social programs to help out the TRUELY needy. Anyways, thats just my story on how the government has helped out my family on hopefully a temporary basis.

s2
 
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