Joe Biden on Gun Control

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Thanks...

and could be!!!

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And what change is there to the recycled rhetoric with the addition of Biden - they are in perfect lockstep!

Yata hey

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I'd never vote for Obama because I'm not a socialist. But I'm also not going to vote for McCain because... I'm still not a socialist. Am I the only OC'er who is disgusted by the two major parties?

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Don't ignore the silver lining of this cloud. Biden can not open his mouth with out putting his foot in it! Comedy Gold!

Nobody cares about Biden or the VP , now we can combine not caring about two people at one time.

Learn more about Biden at redstateupdate.com. Just watch the videos.

Jackie '08 for Pres.

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centsi wrote:

I'd never vote for Obama because I'm not a socialist. But I'm also not going to vote for McCain because... I'm still not a socialist. Am I the only OC'er who is disgusted by the two major parties?

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I am no fan of McCain but I would rather have him choose the next Supreme court justice than Obama.

John Edwards was not allowed to speak at the Dem. convention because he cheated on his wife and lied about it. Therefore the obvious sustitute was William Jefferson Clinton.

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centsi wrote:

I'd never vote for Obama because I'm not a socialist. But I'm also not going to vote for McCain because... I'm still not a socialist. Am I the only OC'er who is disgusted by the two major parties?

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NO! You're not alone. They take an oath to support the Constitution to take office with no intention of honoring that oath. Biden even spoke of supporting the Constitution during the convention. These people don't know what the truth is anymore.

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centsi wrote:

I'd never vote for Obama because I'm not a socialist. But I'm also not going to vote for McCain because... I'm still not a socialist. Am I the only OC'er who is disgusted by the two major parties?

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No you are not - you are a member of a very large group.

BUT - Not voting for your preference between the two candidates most likely to become POTUS, is effectively giving a free (non cancelled) vote to the one you least want in office. If there were no difference at all between the two candidates, I would be the first to stay at home.

Yata hey

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Nothing personal, but the "Lesser of two evils" argument is weak. It is the argument of a subject, not a citizen. The more we vote for these goons, the more they think we agree with them. Let's grow some stones and start practicing what we preach! We OC because we are citizens and we are exercising our rights, no? Then why the HELL would we VOTE for someone who wants to take them away? I don't get it. I'll never get it. Maybe someone else does.

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Lew Rockwell said it best, "While the Republicans don't deserve to win, the Democrats certainly deserve to lose."

I won't be voting for either one. Should I actually decide to waste my time going to the poll, I will "waste" my vote on someone who statistically has no shot, and sleep well.

More likely, I will stay home and play video games or catch up on some work around the house, both of which aremore productive than playing "sheeple pretending to influence the direction of the federal government".

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centsi wrote:

Nothing personal, but the "Lesser of two evils" argument is weak. It is the argument of a subject, not a citizen. The more we vote for these goons, the more they think we agree with them. Let's grow some stones and start practicing what we preach! We OC because we are citizens and we are exercising our rights, no? Then why the HELL would we VOTE for someone who wants to take them away? I don't get it. I'll never get it. Maybe someone else does.

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I share your frustration, sir, unfortunately it is IMO the only choice with validity. There is much beyond the man running for POTUS i.e. the obvious judicial selection and/or appointment issue.

Lessor elections are perhaps more important: representatives, senators, governors, mayors to name a few. Hopefully you will partake in their selection. You cannot if you stay home.

Yata hey

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I will not stay home. A citizen who doesn't vote is not a citizen. I will vote, but I will not be bullied into voting for a candidate or a party out a fear of another candidate or party. The only thing that can take my rights away is me.

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Tomahawk wrote:

Lew Rockwell said it best, "While the Republicans don't deserve to win, the Democrats certainly deserve to lose."

I won't be voting for either one. Should I actually decide to waste my time going to the poll, I will "waste" my vote on someone who statistically has no shot, and sleep well.

More likely, I will stay home and play video games or catch up on some work around the house, both of which aremore productive than playing "sheeple pretending to influence the direction of the federal government".

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Nice to see another LRC fan

Your vote matters not at all - so might as well vote for what you want.

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centsi wrote:

I'd never vote for Obama because I'm not a socialist. But I'm also not going to vote for McCain because... I'm still not a socialist. Am I the only OC'er who is disgusted by the two major parties?

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Not nearly. But I don't even know of an independent I'd vote for this time around.

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centsi wrote:

I'd never vote for Obama because I'm not a socialist.  But I'm also not going to vote for McCain because... I'm still not a socialist.  Am I the only OC'er who is disgusted by the two major parties?

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No, you're not alone. I've made a thread about how (I feel) this relates to our movement.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/15080.html


centsi wrote:

Nothing personal, but the "Lesser of two evils" argument is weak. It is the argument of a subject, not a citizen. The more we vote for these goons, the more they think we agree with them. Let's grow some stones and start practicing what we preach! We OC because we are citizens and we are exercising our rights, no? Then why the HELL would we VOTE for someone who wants to take them away? I don't get it. I'll never get it. Maybe someone else does.

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I'm right with you here. I'm going to follow Tomahawk's voting day plan, myself. I will never vote for any person who I feel doesn't respect my rights completely. I'm just not sure there will be anybody who meets this criterion on the ballot. Maybe I'll write-in "none of the above." :quirky

And you're absolutely right - buying into this "lesser of two evils" BS is the behavior of subjects terrorized into willing compliance, not the behavior of a free people.

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centsi wrote:

A citizen who doesn't vote is not a citizen.

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Attendance at the voting booth is not a requirement for a citizenship. And as long as I pay taxes and am subject to the laws here I am not going to let anyone tell me I'm not a citizen. I won't even mention my military service, since that's not a requirement, either.

I also take issue with anyone who says "if you don't vote you don't have a right to complain". I didn't notice that clause in the 1st Ammendment. And besides, George Carlin had a funny way of describing it: only those who don't vote have the right to complain; after all, it is the voters who are responsible for choosing all these A-hole politicians!

In short, I vote if I feel it's worth my while, and I stay home if I feel it's not. Voting is not sacred, nor is it some civic duty, nor is it a requirement for exercising your rights. It's just a procedure by which you get to participate in choosing someone for office, and it only exists because our civic system is structured this way. Sometimes it makes sense to do it, especially in local elections, and sometimes it doesn't, like when it's a federal election between two unworthies and your state is pretty much decided before you even get to the poll, and either one of the two will immediately commence to trampling your rights in one way or another upon receiveing your blessing at the polling booth.

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Tomahawk wrote:

centsi wrote:

 A citizen who doesn't vote is not a citizen. 

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Attendance at the voting booth is not a requirement for a citizenship. And as long as I pay taxes and am subject to the laws here I am not going to let anyone tell me I'm not a citizen. I won't even mention my military service, since that's not a requirement, either.

I also take issue with anyone who says "if you don't vote you don't have a right to complain". I didn't notice that clause in the 1st Ammendment. And besides, George Carlin had a funny way of describing it: only those who don't vote have the right to complain; after all, it is the voters who are responsible for choosing all these A-hole politicians!

In short, I vote if I feel it's worth my while, and I stay home if I feel it's not. Voting is not sacred, nor is it some civic duty, nor is it a requirement for exercising your rights. It's just a procedure by which you get to participate in choosing someone for office, and it only exists because our civic system is structured this way. Sometimes it makes sense to do it, especially in local elections, and sometimes it doesn't, like when it's a federal election between two unworthies and your state is pretty much decided before you even get to the poll, and either one of the two will immediately commence to trampling your rights in one way or another upon receiveing your blessing at the polling booth.

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I couldn't have said it better if I tried. Bravo, Tomahawk. :lol:

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I didn't say that voting was a requirement of citizenship. People who don't vote don't act like citizens. People who don't vote leave themselves subject to the will of those who did. That is the difference. The mentality that says things will never change and that our votes don't matter is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is a sign of resignation and weakness.

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centsi wrote:

I didn't say that voting was a requirement of citizenship. People who don't vote don't act like citizens. People who don't vote leave themselves subject to the will of those who did. That is the difference. The mentality that says things will never change and that our votes don't matter is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is a sign of resignation and weakness.

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I couldn't disagree more. Ithink Iact like a citizen. I have better-than-average knowledge of my civil liberties and many of the local laws, and I have been actively engaged in politics. I have even joined my friends at the state assembly building, where we exerted far more influence than we ever could have in a voting booth. Does this sound like resignation or weakness?

Most people only vote, which is perhaps the least effective form of activism. This is what passes for "citizenship" in the U.S. today, but it's all snakeoil sold to us by political elites who are careful to ensure you only get to choose between clown A and clown B.

Real citizenship involves teaming up with other citizens and finding ways to exert more pressure on politicians and gather more support to further your cause. It is using the law to protect yourself and your fellow citizens, by forcing public officials to acknowledge your rights, by lawsuit if necessary. That level of involvment in civics is, to me, far more worthy of the title "citizenship" than showing up and pulling a lever once every 2-4 years. I wish I had the energy to do more of this.

I'm not telling anyone not to vote; like I said, sometimes it has a positive effect, especially in state and local elections, or when there actually is a good candidate to choose. McCain or Obama? If I thought there was a way to vote for neither and actually get neither, I would place more importance on voting.

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Tomahawk wrote:

centsi wrote:

A citizen who doesn't vote is not a citizen.

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Attendance at the voting booth is not a requirement for a citizenship. And as long as I pay taxes and am subject to the laws here I am not going to let anyone tell me I'm not a citizen. I won't even mention my military service, since that's not a requirement, either.

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I completely agree Tomahawk. I absolutely despise both parties, and I will likely vote either Barr or write in Ron Paul, or None of the above in protest, although I must admit with his VP choice, I have been considering it.

by the way, just to be a smart ass, by saying "I won't mention my military service, you are actually indeed mentioning your military service..... just thought i'd throw that one in there

:quirky

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Tomahawk wrote:

Most people only vote, which is perhaps the least effective form of activism. This is what passes for "citizenship" in the U.S. today, but it's all snakeoil sold to us by political elites who are careful to ensure you only get to choose between clown A and clown B.

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Exactly.

Tomahawk wrote:

Real citizenship involves teaming up with other citizens and finding ways to exert more pressure on politicians and gather more support to further your cause. It is using the law to protect yourself and your fellow citizens, by forcing public officials to acknowledge your rights, by lawsuit if necessary. That level of involvment in civics is, to me, far more worthy of the title "citizenship" than showing up and pulling a lever once every 2-4 years. I wish I had the energy to do more of this.

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I wish more people felt this way.