IT HAPPENED TO ME!!

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xiphoris wrote:

Do regular slide-action pistols have this problem too, or are we mostly talking about revolvers? Going off randomly, that is.

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Here's the thing. This was not a problem with the gun, it was a problem with the shooter, namely myself. I was not paying attention to what I was doing. When I cycled the cylinder, I assumed the unspent round was ready in the chamber just to the left of the barrel and not in the actual firing position. The pistol was at half-cock, which is actually a safety in and of itslef, allowing you to carry one "in the hole" if you don't have a trigger actuated hammer block safety. Instead of maintaining pressure on the hammer when I released it, I assumed it was clear and I also assumed that a hammer drop from half-cock wouldn't allow the hammer block to be disengaged. I was (nearly) dead wrong. Autos can be fired in this manner, but it all depends on the safeties in place, and murphys law. If an auto is half-cocked, and the hammer can be dropped from that position, (alot of autos require the hammer be pulled all the way back before being released just to prevent this kind of incident) and the block safety is disengaged, then yes, autos can have this type of incident. The safest and most practical way to prevent this is to use a decocker, or ensure your chamber is clear before dropping the hammer. In the case of revolvers, and this particular case, just because you have a missfire, always assume the round is still live, and follow proper procedure, unload the bullet and dispose of it. Something caused that bullet to not fire, and trying again could cause more problems than anything. Also, never assume you know where that bullet is in the cylinder, it's like playing russian roulette. I have learned my lesson on assuming anything.

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bcp wrote:

xiphoris wrote:

Do regular slide-action pistols have this problem too, or are we mostly talking about revolvers? Going off randomly, that is.

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No pistols or revolvers go off randomly.

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Randomly in the sense that the trigger hasn't been squeezed. Guns can malfunction and such a malfunction would be random.

When reading firearm accident reports online, in at least some cases it seems that the firing mechanisms have engaged without someone pulling the trigger. That's what I mean to ask about ... how likely it is that a weapon can malfunction so as to fire without the trigger being activated.

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John Hardin wrote:

Let's not forget this attention-getter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laSRfJ8WgwQ

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Seen that. Boy did it bring back memories...

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xiphoris wrote:

bcp wrote:

xiphoris wrote:

Do regular slide-action pistols have this problem too, or are we mostly talking about revolvers? Going off randomly, that is.

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No pistols or revolvers go off randomly.

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Randomly in the sense that the trigger hasn't been squeezed. Guns can malfunction and such a malfunction would be random.

When reading firearm accident reports online, in at least some cases it seems that the firing mechanisms have engaged without someone pulling the trigger. That's what I mean to ask about ... how likely it is that a weapon can malfunction so as to fire without the trigger being activated.

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The number of guns that are actually broken and go off by themselves is so small as to be in the neighborhood of less than .0000000000001%. People are always blaming the firearm for the stupid act of finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be.

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I try not to be too judgemental because things can and do happen. I do a lot of shotgun (trap) shooting and it is not that uncommon for a gun to malfunction. They may fire as a shell is loaded into the breach, they may double fire both barrels or they might chain fire, they might even fire as the gun is closed. Then of course there are the ones that fail to fire at all.It issafe gun handling including keeping the gun pointed down range that keeps people from getting hurt.

When you think your gun can't malfunction it will. What results could be determined by how well you followed all of the safety rules. The one you ignore or forget is the one that burns you and then, intentional or not, it is your fault.

I have seen wads from a previous shot stick in the barrel and the nextround blows up the gun. And yes you should check your barrel after every shot but WTF who does that? So look at each situation to see what happened and react accordingly.

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Is it possible for the hammer to catch on something and cause the gun to go off?

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And yes you should check your barrel after every shot but WTF who does that?

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How the heck do you do that? I sure am not going to look down the barrel...

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xiphoris wrote:

And yes you should check your barrel after every shot but WTF who does that?

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How the heck do you do that? I sure am not going to look down the barrel...

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On a revolver, break open the cylinder after every shot...

On a semi... Well drop the mag, clear the chamber, than you can take a look... Still not comfortable? Well remove the slide, pull out the barrel and than take a look...

As stated WTF does this? No one...

I check the barrel when I am done for the day and cleaning the firearm... As I suspect is the way for almost everyone

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xiphoris wrote:

Is it possible for the hammer to catch on something and cause the gun to go off?

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On a breach break gun such as a double barrel or over/under one of the firing pins can stick due to build up or damage. Put a shell in and close the gun. It goes off. After firing a breach break gun look down the barrel before inserting another shell. It is easy with the gun open, if you remember. Semi autos, pumps, single shots etc. each presentsit's own set of possibilities. I have heard of, but not seen, blow-back pistols going automatic. is it possible? I can think of a couple of scenarios. My point was 'if you think your gun can't malfunction, think again'. So always always know where it is pointed and even that may not be enough. (edit) As you already know from this thread.

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xiphoris wrote:

Is it possible for the hammer to catch on something and cause the gun to go off?

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This goes back to the hammer safety, yes, in the past there have been stories of accidental discharge due to a hammer being caught on clothing or a holster strap, although, to be honest, most of those reports come from cops and professionals who wouldn't admit to themselves being irresponsible. I am not, I repeat NOT calling anyone a liar here, its just that, as bear stated, it is very difficult to cause a revolver to fire without a finger on the trigger, and any revolver built in the last few decades has a hammer block safety making it damn near impossible to fire the gun without pulling the trigger, because the trigger disengages the hammer block, not the cocking of the gun. Just so we are clear, this incident was negligence on my part, not a gun malfunction, though I would love to say it was, for sure. If you own a revolver made by a reputable manufacturer built in the last thirty years or more, you can be reasonably sure that it has a hammer block, although for the test, take your wheel-gun, and look at it with the hammer down, note the position of the hammer, then dry fire it, keeping your finger on the trigger, (use proper safety and common sense please, ensure the gun is empty and point it in a safe direction, we don't need another story here any time soon). Now, release the trigger, if your hammer moves rearward, just a little bit, then the hammer block has engaged. Also look at your revolver with the hammer pulled back, there might be a small metal cylinder or half moon just below the firing pin, keeping pressure on the hammer pull the trigger, if the small piece of metal drops, that is your hammer safety. If anyone else has advice on how to check for this sort of thing, by all means post it. Never assume you have this safety featurethough, when in doubt, assume you don't have one and take precautions, do not carry the weapon fully loaded, leave the cylinder in line with the barrel empty, when you want to fire, the cylinder will rotate a bullet into the chamber when you cock the hammer or pull the trigger. Again, I made a mistake, the gun did what it was built to do, so Bear, although we haven't been on the field of forum battle yet, I would like to nip this in the butt, I made a mistake, the gun DID NOT malfunction.

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flyin_ryan wrote:

xiphoris wrote:

Is it possible for the hammer to catch on something and cause the gun to go off?

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This goes back to the hammer safety, yes, in the past there have been stories of accidental discharge due to a hammer being caught on clothing or a holster strap, although, to be honest, most of those reports come from cops and professionals who wouldn't admit to themselves being irresponsible. I am not, I repeat NOT calling anyone a liar here, its just that, as bear stated, it is very difficult to cause a revolver to fire without a finger on the trigger, and any revolver built in the last few decades has a hammer block safety making it damn near impossible to fire the gun without pulling the trigger, because the trigger disengages the hammer block, not the cocking of the gun. Just so we are clear, this incident was negligence on my part, not a gun malfunction, though I would love to say it was, for sure. If you own a revolver made by a reputable manufacturer built in the last thirty years or more, you can be reasonably sure that it has a hammer block, although for the test, take your wheel-gun, and look at it with the hammer down, note the position of the hammer, then dry fire it, keeping your finger on the trigger, (use proper safety and common sense please, ensure the gun is empty and point it in a safe direction, we don't need another story here any time soon). Now, release the trigger, if your hammer moves rearward, just a little bit, then the hammer block has engaged. Also look at your revolver with the hammer pulled back, there might be a small metal cylinder or half moon just below the firing pin, keeping pressure on the hammer pull the trigger, if the small piece of metal drops, that is your hammer safety. If anyone else has advice on how to check for this sort of thing, by all means post it. Never assume you have this safety featurethough, when in doubt, assume you don't have one and take precautions, do not carry the weapon fully loaded, leave the cylinder in line with the barrel empty, when you want to fire, the cylinder will rotate a bullet into the chamber when you cock the hammer or pull the trigger. Again, I made a mistake, the gun did what it was built to do, so Bear, although we haven't been on the field of forum battle yet, I would like to nip this in the butt, I made a mistake, the gun DID NOT malfunction.

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You arevery much the man for admitting your error. An impressive, selfless act to say the least.

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B

You arevery much the man for admitting your error. An impressive, selfless act to say the least.

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Thank you Bear, it means alot sir.

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I didn't mean to infer the gun malfunctioned in this case. Only that malfunctions and accidents do occur. So always keep your gun pointed in a safe direction to reduce the chance that someone could be hurt. And yes modern firearms are generally much safer than those in the past but do not ignore safe gun handling because of this. A mistake is simply a mistake unless someone gets hurt then it may be called negligence.

Thanks for owning up to your mistake and reminding all of us of the importance of safe gun handling.

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irfner wrote:

And yes modern firearms are generally much safer than those in the past but do not ignore safe gun handling because of this.

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Excellent point! The particular pistol I had was equipped with a hammer block safety, a half-cock feature,anda manual safety, and I still managed to shoot myself! I know that makes it sound even worse, but accidents happen, or negligence, as in my case. I feel like I have beaten myself to death, but Ijust can't seem to forgive myself for this. I feel I've failed all those people I've trained and mentored. I just hope I can learn from this, and turn it into a positive. I was offered a job at the range after the incident, so some good came of it. And I should note the employees there were wonderful and professional, even kept my gunssafe while I was on the mend. I don't want to mention names, as I am not sure of the liabilityissues, butit wasnice to be treated so well after such a dumb mistake.

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flyin_ryan wrote:

Excellent point! The particular pistol I had was equipped with a hammer block safety, a half-cock feature,anda manual safety, and I still managed to shoot myself! I know that makes it sound even worse, but accidents happen, or negligence, as in my case. I feel like I have beaten myself to death, but Ijust can't seem to forgive myself for this. I feel I've failed all those people I've trained and mentored. I just hope I can learn from this, and turn it into a positive. I was offered a job at the range after the incident, so some good came of it. And I should note the employees there were wonderful and professional, even kept my gunssafe while I was on the mend. I don't want to mention names, as I am not sure of the liabilityissues, butit wasnice to be treated so well after such a dumb mistake.

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If your incident and your willingness to share it with others, prevents even one other person from making the same type ofmistakeand possibly saves a life, then that should be your reward for the pain you have suffered.

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

If your incident and your willingness to share it with others, prevents even one other person from making the same type ofmistakeand possibly saves a life, then that should be your reward for the pain you have suffered.

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Well said Bear, and again, thank you. I think you're right. I'll take that to heart.

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In my years as a range officer I've only seen one 'accidental discharge' that was due to a firearms malfunction and not due to an errant finger on the trigger.



I was pulling during a skeet tournement and a squad member loaded his Beretta Over/Under. I was looking right at him as he loaded the gun with two shells, closed the action, raised it to his shoulder and thumber the selector switch...with no finger near the trigger.



BAM!



The gun fired and we called a cold line. Luckily the gun was pointed down range when this discharge occurred. The gun was disassembled and examined by a gunsmith. The sear notches for the hammer were dangerously worn and apparently the release of the selector lever was enough to trip the sear and fire the gun.



In four years I saw MAYBE ten or twelve 'unintentional discharges', and every one of them was due to a finger on the trigger at an improper moment. Luckily there were no injuries for most of them. The only two injuries were both during machine-gun/class III events. One was a silenced Browning .22 pistol, the shooter had a fail-to-cycle and was fiddling with the gun...he turned the gun SIDEWAYS and was working the slide with his left hand, with his right hand still gripping the firearm...and finger on the trigger. Instead of a BAM! there was a soft POP! and a man standing about 30 yards to his left went down with a .22 slug in the back of his thigh.



Hilarity then ensued. (Not really...it was pretty chaotic. Ambulance, police, etc were called. Highlight of the day was the president of the full-auto club arguing with me for calling the firing line cold after the guy got shot. He actually said (wish I had a recorder) "I don't see why the rest of us have to stop shooting just because somebody got shot !"



Second incident was during another class III shoot for the same full-auto club. Gentleman had a belt-fed H & K light machine gun that jammed. He disassembled the gun on the firing line by removing the buttstock and the rear receiver cap. He raised the gun with muzzle skywards, and the bolt fell out of the back of the gun with a round of 7.62 nato still clipped against the bolt face, held in place by the extractor. The bolt hit the concrete (the back of the bolt) AND THE ROUND DISCHARGED, EXPLODING LIKE A FIRECRACKER. A shooter five feet or so to one side took a chunk of brass casing shrapnel in his ankle--the chunk of brass went right through the side of his tennis shoe and about 1/2" into his foot. The 7.62 projectile was just laying there on the concrete, I don't think it moved more then an inch.



The gentleman in the first incident (shot in the back of the thigh) REFUSED MEDICAL TREATMENT. (Even with a hole in his thigh leaking copious amounts of hydraulic fluid.). The police and fire-rescue people kept telling him he'd been shot and he needed to go to the hospital, but the president of the club kept calling him 'A big baby' and seriously, he finally just signed a 'refusal of treatment' waivier and went home.



Apparently his wife had other ideas when she saw the bloody hole in his leg, and when he walked in the front door she freaked out, tore him a new A and took him to the emergency room. There, he had an X-ray and was amazed to discover that THERE WAS A BULLET IN HIS LEG!!!



He called out office and angrily informed us of this. (My bosses' response was classic: "Gee, you got shot and there was an entry wound but no exit wound. Whre did you THINK the bullet went, dumbass ?")



He started screaming about lawsuits, but the club had signed insurance waviers and his buddy the club president has insisted that they be allowed to have their own range safety officers, and the full-auto club was required by the range to carry their own million-dollar insurance liabilty certificate...so his own club ended up paying him an out-of-court settlement.



For years this guy kept coming back to shoot, but now he wore a Veitnam-era flak jacket and an M1 helmet. We kept asking him where his 'flak pants' were...