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Thread: Waist Band Holsters

  1. #1
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    I've heard it both ways. Yes it is legal OC. No it is not OR might not be legal OC.

    Which is it?

    I know it isn't quite as comfortable but it looks much cooler and I think looks slightly more sophisticated and acceptable to onlookers. I want to invest in a nice holster but I do not yet have my permit and do not want to start any trouble that could be easily avoided.

    Any thoughts?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    It is Leagl.. it's also called Virginia Carry. As long as your waistband does not hide the true nature of what the firearm is.. Also.. make sure your shirt does not cover the handle and conceal.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    It is Leagl.. it's also called Virginia Carry. As long as your waistband does not hide the true nature of what the firearm is.. Also.. make sure your shirt does not cover the handle and conceal.
    Yes that is the side that I typically hear as well. However I have heard that the police do not see it as OC.

    Can anyone argue the other side?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    It is Leagl.. it's also called Virginia Carry.
    Cite? :P

    Personally, I don't think IWB OC looks very "sophisticated" at all... More like you can't make up your mind. Seriously though, some people might mistake IWB as MC (mexican carry), which sure isn't sophisticated.

    Just be aware that, since there isn't an accepted "standard" for what is societally considered "sophisticated" OC, you're going to have to depend on your personality and, yes, clothes and mannerisms to appear sophisticated when OCing.

    BTW, if sophisistication is your goal, I suggest sticking with your 1911.


    Edit: Also, "cooler"? lol...

  5. #5
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    ed wrote:
    It is Leagl.. it's also called Virginia Carry.
    Cite? :P

    Personally, I don't think IWB OC looks very sophisticated at all... More like you can't make up your mind.

    Just be aware that, since there isn't an accepted "standard" for what is societally considered "sophisticated" OC, you're going to have to depend on your personality and, yes, clothes and mannerisms to appear sophisticated when OCing.

    BTW, if sophisistication is your goal, I suggest sticking with your 1911.
    Relative to what most people perceive as the wild west cowboy look with a gun on your hips....I think MOST people would consider a gun in the waistband, even if only a little bit, slightly more sophisticated. I'm just guessing and thats my opinion. I obviously don't have data to back that up. But I hear the "wild west" comment all the time. Anything to get away from that image is a good thing....I believe.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Well, it's funny, because I actually wear western clothes (they're quite functional), and although occasionally people ask if I come from Texas (always makes me laugh), nobody ever makes "Wild West" comments to me.


    To be fair, you have a point (sort of), but one thing we are working to accompish with OC
    is the destruction of the public's misconceptions. So what if someone thinks a OWB holster is more "wild west" than IWB? The very act of OCing serves to dispel the myth of the "wild" west.

  7. #7
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Well, it's funny, because I actually wear western clothes (they're quite functional), and although occasionally people ask if I come from Texas (always makes me laugh), nobody ever makes "Wild West" comments to me.


    To be fair, you have a point (sort of), but one thing we are working to accompish with OC
    is the destruction of the public's misconceptions. So what if someone thinks a OWB holster is more "wild west" than IWB? The very act of OCing serves to dispel the myth of the "wild" west.
    I agree. But isn't another major goal of OC is to get other people to OC who do not currently? If they dont want to because all they see are cowboys what have you done? You have to give these people options. Show them that you don't have to look like a cowboy in order to carry. You can look, instead, like a 007!!!



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    Well ask yourself this, what are those to do that CC and go to a restaurant to do? Are they to carry two holsters with them at all times?

    IWB is fine, as long as, as others have said, you don't conceal the true nature.

    I look at it this way, as long as what is "hidden" from view is holstered, are you really CC'ing? As in, the forward part of the slide and trigger are "hidden" when holstered, so having that part tucked byhind your pants really isn't concealing anything

    I have my IWB setup so it sticks out pretty high from my belt so more is exposed. A good portion of the action is visible as well as the grip. No mistaking it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Oh, IWB is definitely fine, for sure. I just chose to challenge the idea that it will be perceived as "more sophisticated" than OWB. Or cooler. :P

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    ed wrote:
    It is Leagl.. it's also called Virginia Carry.
    Cite? :P
    There are not cites for what IS legal.. there are cites for what is NOT legal.. and while I don't have it handy.. it basically says you can't conceal the true nature of the weapon.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I know, Ed, that's why I bolded the second part. That's what I wanted a citation for.

    And I was kidding, anyway. I just think the phrase "Virginia Carry" is perhaps a tad misleading: it's not "Virginia" carry because the law makes any special note of IWB carry, it's because you can't CC into an establishment that serves alcohol, so many CCers switch to so-called "Virginia Carry" to be compliant. If the law made any sense, there would be no "Virginia" carry, as compared to anywhere else.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Opinions vary on this subject...

    'Virginia carry' and 'Virginia tuck' are phrases coined by the public. They do not reflect any legal terminology.

    Companies that sell IWB holsters generally sell them as "concealment holsters". I think that answer your question right there.

    The Code of Virginia defines "concealed" in 2 ways:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    Opinions vary on this subject...
    Opinion or fact, which is it?

    'Virginia carry' and 'Virginia tuck' are phrases coined by the public. They do not reflect any legal terminology.
    But it does define what we do and how we carry.

    Companies that sell IWB holsters generally sell them as "concealment holsters". I think that answer your question right there.
    Their advertising copy does not provide a legal definition either!

    The Code of Virginia defines "concealed" in 2 ways:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. I would agree if you had a belt buckel weapon but not for inside the waist band (IWB) !
    My direct comments in green above.

    This is an very old argument without merit. Point of fact the Code of Virginia does not define open carry beyond that it be available to general observation and be readily identifiable. This is not a matter of opinion. I shall leave to others to provide you with cites as we have been through this too many times before.

    Please stop trying to frighten people with legitimate questions that IWB is not open carry! If done properly, it indubitably is!!

    See one of the best descriptions of open carry that I have found to date.
    http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm
    And the above is complete with pictures.

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  14. #14
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    'Virginia carry' and 'Virginia tuck' are phrases coined by the public. They do not reflect any legal terminology.
    But it does define what we do and how we carry. Only in that these terms were coined by the public to explain a manner of carry. If the manner of carry that we often describe as 'Virginia carry', using an IWB holster is equal to "open carry" in your eyes, then why do we need to callit'Virginia carry' or'Virginia tuck" at all?Why do we need a special name for it? We call it that as a way to justify the fact that we aretrying to turn a concealment holster into an open carry holster by changing the position of an outer garment so that it does not cover what little part of the gun is exposed over thepant line.Removing that covering garment does not change the design or intent of the holster, it only makes it somewhat more observable.

    Companies that sell IWB holsters generally sell them as "concealment holsters". I think that answer your question right there.
    Their advertising copy does not provide a legal definition either! Granted, but it goes a long way towards establishing what the purchaser's intent is in buying this type of holster. If you buy something sold as a'concealment' holster, then it goes towards the understanding that you are trying to conceal your gun by carrying a handgun that type of holster.
    The Code of Virginia defines "concealed" in 2 ways:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. I would agree if you had a belt buckel weapon but not for inside the waist band (IWB) ! That again is a matter of opinion.
    My direct comments in green above.


    Please stop trying to frighten people with legitimate questions that IWB is not open carry! If done properly, it indubitably is!! This is not a matter of trying to frighten people, its a matter of trying to enlighten people as to an entirely different interpretation that may be used by law enforcement. We can argue theory all day long, or we can make rational judgements based on common, everyday occurences.

    See one of the best descriptions of open carry that I have found to date.
    http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm
    And the above is complete with pictures. A nice site, but again thatis the author's opinion and interpretation. At the home page of that site, the authorseven state :


    The maintainers of this site make efforts to verify the information, but we are not lawyers and therefore, we cannot nor will not give legal advice. If you need accurate answers, hire an attorney who is licensed in Virginia.. Therefore, it is completely up to the reader to verify ALL information on this site.



    All I'm saying is that everyone has their own opinion on this, and it is up to the individual to decide.

    and my comments are in blue....
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Ahhh....yes. And so is my dilemma. A 'he said, she said' style inerpretation of what is legal.

    I think I'll wait until I get my permit so that I'm covered either way.

    :?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    Ahhh....yes. And so is my dilemma. A 'he said, she said' style inerpretation of what is legal.

    I think I'll wait until I get my permit so that I'm covered either way.

    :?
    good idea...




    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    We can all discuss the fine points of our respective opinions until well past when the cows come home, and still wind up with a bunch of personal opinions that are not worth warm spit to anyone but our respective selfs.

    The only "opinions" that really matter are the ones that the courts hand down in what is known as case law. Perhaps the best site for cites on case law regarding what does not pass muster as legal concealed carry (also thus not passing muster as open carry) is http://www.virginia1774.org/Page1.html(scroll down a ways to get the the part on modern concealed carry law). Numerous cites from there have been offered in the past to support various personal opinions on what is or is not acceptable, and to explain why one indivudual does or does not recommend a particular carry method or platform.

    Those citations are far more instructive that personal opinions, based on supposition or personal/professional experience. Those citations instruct on how the courts have actually ruled, as opposed to wondering if some cop on some particuilar day when they have some particular wildly ingrown hair on some particular part of their anatomy may, might, could, or would respond by arresting you forany particularmethod of carry. For, as most of us know, the arrest is at most an inconvenience, while it is the conviction or aquittal that is the thing that matters. And if a cop arrests you for something that, based on case law, he should have known was not an offense, you stand a good chance of winning a civil rights violation lawsuit against the cop.

    There are a number of members of OCDO who are lawyers or otherwise well-versed in the reading, interpretation and explanation of the finer points of case law. Most of those members are more than willing to share their knowledge and experience when approached with a reasonable request - but usually will not be drawn into wild speculations of wild scenarios dreamed up merely to provoke argument amongst the membership.

    While I would not mind participating in a legal debate or mock trial, I do not believe the rest of the membership is up for that on a regular basis. However, either is, IMNSHO, much more instructive and helpful than wild speculation on what may, might, could, or would take place under any particular set of circumstances.

    I'd like to offer a suggestion to those members whose postings are based in any way by law enforcement experience (being a current or former cop or having been arrested and/or tried) with open or concealed carry situations -- tell us what happened in the particular situation you want us to know about. Think of it as "street case law" if that makes you feel better about doing so. Tell us what "some guy who knows my best buddy's ex-girlfriend's sister's brother-in-law" did if you do not want to risk being personally bashed.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    Ahhh....yes. And so is my dilemma. A 'he said, she said' style inerpretation of what is legal.

    I think I'll wait until I get my permit so that I'm covered either way.

    :?
    +1
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    I have recently obtained a concealed permit. Before that, step I did much research on the laws and responsibilites of handgun ownership. I carry a little S&W hammerless .38+P. I felt I would "stir up less trouble" by carrying concealed. However, the va. eatery and alcohol laws leave me in quandry. My weapon is so small, I risk concealing it with my love handles!Plus it is such a small arm, it looks kinda silly in abig leather holster. I hate leaving it in the car. I may join forces with you folks but I am still a bit hesitant. There is great info here at OCDO and I wish to thank many of the posters for your insight and experience. I'll be lurking.
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    edand ProShooter wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    Ahhh....yes. And so is my dilemma. A 'he said, she said' style inerpretation of what is legal.

    I think I'll wait until I get my permit so that I'm covered either way.

    :?
    +1
    While waiting until you get your CHP in hand so that you can avoid potential confusion, it is not supportive of the OC "cause".

    IMHO either you are convinced that OC is legal or you are not convinced. IMHO if you are convinced that OC is legal you are willing to OC without any "backup" papers.

    As always, YMMV.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    riverrat10k wrote:
    I have recently obtained a concealed permit. Before that, step I did much research on the laws and responsibilites of handgun ownership. I carry a little S&W hammerless .38+P. I felt I would "stir up less trouble" by carrying concealed. However, the va. eatery and alcohol laws leave me in quandry. My weapon is so small, I risk concealing it with my love handles!Plus it is such a small arm, it looks kinda silly in abig leather holster. I hate leaving it in the car. I may join forces with you folks but I am still a bit hesitant. There is great info here at OCDO and I wish to thank many of the posters for your insight and experience. I'll be lurking.
    Your post beat mine above re: +1 or not +1.

    As for OWB holsters for J-frames (is that what you are carrying?) there are any number of quality leather and synthetic holsters that are not much bigger than the J-frame itself. It is not necessary that you take up twice the size of the revolver with an OWB pancake holster.

    Unless you are facing this http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ht=nudist+camp WARNING: probably NSFW and guaranteed NSFFamily. ADDITIONAL WARNING: Major Beverage Alert!! you should have no problems OC-ing IWB even with "love handles" as long as you consider a change of holster location from right underneath them. (A little creativity helps - so long as it does not involve duct tape .)

    stay safe.

    skidmark


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    Ahhh....yes. And so is my dilemma. A 'he said, she said' style inerpretation of what is legal.

    I think I'll wait until I get my permit so that I'm covered either way.

    :?
    Having your permit will be of no benefit in a restaurtant that serves alcohol for on premises consumption where if you are to carry legally, it must be OCd and no permit is required nor applicable.

    You will need to be familiar with the practical, workable everyday methods of OC which include IWB and the Virginia Tuck. To my knowledge no case has ever been lost over this method of carry as being charged with carrying concealed. Anybody care to rebutt?
    __________________________________________________ _________________

    Also somebody please show me in the Code of Virginia what per centage of a handgun must be visible in order for it to be considered carried openly - 100%, 75%, 50% 25%. Per centage doesn't work for you? How about inches or contrasting color? No? Oh, I see it only has to be visible and identifiable to common observation.

    And let's not forget that if I am sitting strong side to the wall after entering, I am still OCing.

    I repeat my link for descriptive purposes.
    http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I am sure that there are no end of opinions on this subject - ad nasium.

    What we are generally concerned with here, gentlemen, is after the Code and case law, what works and what doesn't.

    Might happen, could happen, maybe might could happen is pure negative speculation.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Hlh, thank you for the invite. I am a still VERY cautious concerning my handgun. AndSkidmark, yes a little airlight J.Of course have used shotguns and riflessince a child, but handgun carry is new to me. Employment now takes me to secluded places in questionable parts of town, and I realized I am not as young, strong, or fast as I used to be. Heavier, bad knee, etc. I guess I should just shop for the proper holster and get on with it. Cargo shorts are great but a little low for good response. Winter is no prob. Just that darn restaraunt thing! Overall, I support y'all and may take HLH up on his offer at some point. "An armed society is a polite society"



    riverrat
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

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  25. #25
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    edand ProShooter wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    Ahhh....yes. And so is my dilemma. A 'he said, she said' style inerpretation of what is legal.

    I think I'll wait until I get my permit so that I'm covered either way.

    :?
    +1
    While waiting until you get your CHP in hand so that you can avoid potential confusion, it is not supportive of the OC "cause".

    IMHO either you are convinced that OC is legal or you are not convinced. IMHO if you are convinced that OC is legal you are willing to OC without any "backup" papers.

    As always, YMMV.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    The question is not whether OC is legal. The question is whether or not that particular style of carry is viewed legallyas open carry. It has nothing to do whatsoever with supporting "the cause".


    James Reynolds

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