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Thread: A loophole to School carry?

  1. #1
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    So we know ARS prohibit carry on school grounds right? Here's the exact verbiage. from ARS 13-31202(A)(12)

    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

    12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds;

    Pretty straight forward right? But look at the exceptions, specifically (C)(4):

    C. Subsection A, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:

    4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States

    Now, here's where it gets good. 18 USC 922 states

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;



    We all know about this exception in federal law, but AZ law specifically states that if Federal law allows it, then it's legal! IANAL and I don't want to be the first test case, but doesn't it seem that we already have school carry here?

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    maybe. pretty iffy. i think someone would have to get arrested and go through the court system to find out for sure.

    some states allow a person to ask a court for a judgment on a point of law without actually having to violate the law first to get standing.

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    I`ll have to see if I can find any relevant case law on it. I really am curious. Does anyone know where the state AG stands on this? Don't they usually offer up some criteria for LEOs to follow on how to enforce certain statutes?

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    The US law section mentioned is about school zones, not school grounds. Federal law allows carry in school zones if the person has a permit.

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    bbvk05 wrote:
    The US law section mentioned is about school zones, not school grounds. Federal law allows carry in school zones if the person has a permit.
    And the school grounds are not in the school zone? Just a thought.

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    bbvk05 wrote:
    The US law section mentioned is about school zones, not school grounds.* Federal law allows carry in school zones if the person has a permit.
    And the school grounds are not in the school zone?* Just a thought.

    *** *** *** *** *** Yata hey
    Right, that's the point. The State law says that if it's permitted by Federal statute, then it's permitted in AZ. Federal statute says if you have a CCW it's permitted.

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    Dahwg wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    bbvk05 wrote:
    The US law section mentioned is about school zones, not school grounds. Federal law allows carry in school zones if the person has a permit.
    And the school grounds are not in the school zone? Just a thought.

    Yata hey
    Right, that's the point. The State law says that if it's permitted by Federal statute, then it's permitted in AZ. Federal statute says if you have a CCW it's permitted.
    Federal statute does not say that if you have a CCW then its permitted. It says that you are prohibited unless licensed to do so by the state. This is not the same thing.

    For example: Utah law exempts a permit holder from the prohibition of carrying on school grounds, therefore you are licensed to do so by the state if you have a Utah permit.

    Arizona on the otherhand seems to prohibit carry on school grounds. I copied the following from FAQ section of the AZ department of public safety:


    I have a CCW permit. Can I carry my handgun on school grounds while picking up my child? Conditionally. If you remain in your vehicle and the handgun is unloaded before entering school grounds, yes. If you have to exit your vehicle while picking up your child, the handgun must be unloaded (as above) and secured (locked) within the vehicle out of plain view. Use caution if you must exit the vehicle with a handgun (or any weapon) to secure it in the trunk of your vehicle. Others may see you and not understand your intention. Additionally, designated employees of a school may order a person off of school property if that person is believed to be interfering with school operations. School boards may also enact specific and more restrictive rules governing firearms and deadly weapons on school grounds. Determine what the rules of a school are before attempting to enter school grounds with a firearm. (ARS 13-3102.A.12, 13-3102.I and ARS 13-2911)
    Clearly AZ doesn't not license permit holders to carry on school grounds, in fact it looks like it is specifically disallowed, (at least that is how I read it.)

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    Dahwg wrote:
    So we know ARS prohibit carry on school grounds right? Here's the exact verbiage. from ARS 13-31202(A)(12)

    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

    12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds;

    Pretty straight forward right? But look at the exceptions, specifically (C)(4):

    C. Subsection A, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:

    4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States

    Now, here's where it gets good. 18 USC 922 states

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;



    We all know about this exception in federal law, but AZ law specifically states that if Federal law allows it, then it's legal! IANAL and I don't want to be the first test case, but doesn't it seem that we already have school carry here?
    We have been saying this in Michigan for a while. You can't CC with a CPL on schools or in schools, but a CPL holder can OC there. We basically have the same exemption but in state law as well.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
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    althor wrote:
    Dahwg wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    bbvk05 wrote:
    The US law section mentioned is about school zones, not school grounds. Federal law allows carry in school zones if the person has a permit.
    And the school grounds are not in the school zone? Just a thought.

    Yata hey
    Right, that's the point. The State law says that if it's permitted by Federal statute, then it's permitted in AZ. Federal statute says if you have a CCW it's permitted.
    Federal statute does not say that if you have a CCW then its permitted. It says that you are prohibited unless licensed to do so by the state. This is not the same thing.

    For example: Utah law exempts a permit holder from the prohibition of carrying on school grounds, therefore you are licensed to do so by the state if you have a Utah permit.

    Arizona on the otherhand seems to prohibit carry on school grounds. I copied the following from FAQ section of the AZ department of public safety:


    I have a CCW permit. Can I carry my handgun on school grounds while picking up my child? Conditionally. If you remain in your vehicle and the handgun is unloaded before entering school grounds, yes. If you have to exit your vehicle while picking up your child, the handgun must be unloaded (as above) and secured (locked) within the vehicle out of plain view. Use caution if you must exit the vehicle with a handgun (or any weapon) to secure it in the trunk of your vehicle. Others may see you and not understand your intention. Additionally, designated employees of a school may order a person off of school property if that person is believed to be interfering with school operations. School boards may also enact specific and more restrictive rules governing firearms and deadly weapons on school grounds. Determine what the rules of a school are before attempting to enter school grounds with a firearm. (ARS 13-3102.A.12, 13-3102.I and ARS 13-2911)
    Clearly AZ doesn't not license permit holders to carry on school grounds, in fact it looks like it is specifically disallowed, (at least that is how I read it.)
    This refers to Concealed Carry does it not? OC with a permit may be legal????
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
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    Dahwg wrote:
    So we know ARS prohibit carry on school grounds right? Here's the exact verbiage. from ARS 13-31202(A)(12)

    A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

    12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds;

    Pretty straight forward right? But look at the exceptions, specifically (C)(4):

    C. Subsection A, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:

    4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States

    Now, here's where it gets good. 18 USC 922 states

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;



    We all know about this exception in federal law, but AZ law specifically states that if Federal law allows it, then it's legal! IANAL and I don't want to be the first test case, but doesn't it seem that we already have school carry here?

    Brian,

    When I lived in Arizona, I discussed this issue with a very prominent RKBA attorney who has published some famous books.

    The law is clear that your status as a CCW holder exempts you from these places. With a CCW the only place you cant carry are restaurants that serve alcohol (that prohibition is not in Chapter 13, instead it's in Chapter 4.

    DPS takes the "opinion" that that does not apply to CCW holders because that exemption was in the law before the CCW law was passed; however, there is no legal basis for this type of rational.

    Police pretend that the exemption does not exist; however, I have never been able to find a case where a CCW holder was convicted of carrying in any of these places. Believe me, I looked hard for one.

    Just so you know, no one in Arizona cares about this exemption and I was let down by that.


    Basically DPS is "interpreting" the law to how they see fit even though they are wrong and they have a personal stake in the matter even though it's petty. They were against the CCW law when it passed and to add insult to injury, now all ofa sudden not only could people CCW, but now they could CCW or OC in places where they otherwise could not have in the past as long as they are a permit holder.

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