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Thread: Conflicting gun laws. Private property vs school zone proximity.

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    I know about the ban on bringing weapons into the proximity(1000 feet?) of a grade school. But what if your house is right next to a school? What if all of your private property is within 500 feet of a school?

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    quentusrex wrote:
    I know about the ban on bringing weapons into the proximity(1000 feet?) of a grade school. But what if your house is right next to a school? What if all of your private property is within 500 feet of a school?
    What school zone statute do you speak of? Cite to statute.

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    No such requirement in Washington State (1000' rule). Weapons are fobidden ON school grounds. Even then there are some exceptions such as picking up/dropping off your child if you have a CPL, securing the weeapon in your car (even if on school grounds)if you are there for some other reason (parent teacher conference, volunteer, etc. )




    RCW 9.41.280
    Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.


    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

    (c) Any device commonly known as "nun-chu-ka sticks", consisting of two or more lengths of wood, metal, plastic, or similar substance connected with wire, rope, or other means;

    (d) Any device, commonly known as "throwing stars", which are multi-pointed, metal objects designed to embed upon impact from any aspect; or

    (e) Any air gun, including any air pistol or air rifle, designed to propel a BB, pellet, or other projectile by the discharge of compressed air, carbon dioxide, or other gas.

    (2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.


    (BIG SNIPPAGE)


    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student; (emphasis added)

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; (emphasis added)


    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or (emphasis added)


    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.

    (4) Subsections (1)(c) and (d) of this section do not apply to any person who possesses nun-chu-ka sticks, throwing stars, or other dangerous weapons to be used in martial arts classes authorized to be conducted on the school premises.

    (5) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    (6) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.


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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    911Boss wrote:
    No such requirement in Washington State (1000' rule).
    Right. That's federal law, and does not apply if you have a state-issued CPL that involves a criminal background check.

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    John Hardin wrote:
    911Boss wrote:
    No such requirement in Washington State (1000' rule).
    Right. That's federal law, and does not apply if you have a state-issued CPL that involves a criminal background check.
    If the poster is discussing federal law, 18 USC 922(q), then first, it also has a private property exemption, and, its constitutionality, despite reenactment with findings,is in doubt under Lopez v. U.S.

    originnal poster needs to google up 922(q) and look at text.

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    John Hardin wrote:
    911Boss wrote:
    No such requirement in Washington State (1000' rule).
    Right. That's federal law, and does not apply if you have a state-issued CPL that involves a criminal background check.
    But from my understanding it only doesn't apply if you have a state-issued CPL from the state where the school that you are within 1000 feet is located. So reciprocal CPLs do not protect you from the law.

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    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    I'm ass-uming this means picking up or dropping off in a car, i.e. drive up, kid gets out/in, drive away.

    But what if you walk your kid to school like I'm going to starting Tuesday? Do I have to stay on the sidewalk in front of the school? Has anyonewalked thier kid toschool while OC? Did it "cause alarm"? (sorry, Bear!)Would you recommend CC for walking to school?



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    trevorthebusdriver wrote:
    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    I'm ass-uming this means picking up or dropping off in a car, i.e. drive up, kid gets out/in, drive away.

    But what if you walk your kid to school like I'm going to starting Tuesday? Do I have to stay on the sidewalk in front of the school? Has anyonewalked thier kid toschool while OC? Did it "cause alarm"? (sorry, Bear!)Would you recommend CC for walking to school?

    It means what is says. If you are in the act of delivering your child to school, or removing them, you are exempt. If they wanted to restrict it to you staying in the vehicle or not going to office/classroom they would have spelled that out. The idea is if it is a short time period without staying, you can remain armed instead of going through the disarm and secure routine.

    I got made once (had to bend over an pick something up, jacket rode up) while picking my sonup from the nurses office.Nurse got a little freaky, they called the cops. I explained the exemption but they believed "Gun Free Zone" meantjust that without exception. I explained I would be waiting for them in theparking lot (since waiting in the office could be considered no longer just pickingup my son). Cop arrived, I flagged him over, explained they called me to pick up a sick child,showed my CPL and he said I was good to go. He then went and educated the office staff.

    The next time I was in the office, they "apologized", but followed it with their view that weapons were unnecessary and have no place on school grounds and asked me to reconsider having them around my child, for his safety. I explained all of my children were taught gun safety before ever coming to school and they are only unnecessary until one is needed.Problem is since you don't know when that will be, you need to practice and be prepared, kind of like the fire drills they do.

    It shut her up, but I am sure there are notes in the files...

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    I was pretty sure it was a federal law that prevented firearms on school grounds except if you were picking up or dropping off a child. The one that Bill Clinton signed into law. I just don't know what it says, or where to find the text of the law.

    It matters to be because a friend lives on the same block as an elementary school in Seattle. So he always has the cross walk guards 'in front of his house'.

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    quentusrex wrote:
    I was pretty sure it was a federal law that prevented firearms on school grounds except if you were picking up or dropping off a child. The one that Bill Clinton signed into law. I just don't know what it says, or where to find the text of the law.

    It matters to be because a friend lives on the same block as an elementary school in Seattle. So he always has the cross walk guards 'in front of his house'.
    Private property rights trump the 1000 foot restriction. They can't deny your Constitutional rights with a law.

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    Right, but if the local PD is really pissed off, and the school admin's are gun control psycho's, could there be a problem 'as soon as you leave your house'.

    Like if you go for a walk to the mail box?

    Walk to the 7/11 a couple blocks away? etc?

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    Code:
    From:
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...hool_zones.txt
    
    revised Gun Free School Zones Act, enacted September 30, 1996.
    
    Text of Conference Report on H.R. 3610
    CONFERENCE REPORT ON H.R. 3610 
    DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 1997 
    [CR page H-11743]
    
    (big snip) 
    
    
    "(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    
    "(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm--
    
    "(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    
    "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
    do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
    law to receive the license;
    
    "(iii) that is--
    
    "(I) not loaded; and
    
    "(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
    on a motor vehicle;
    
    "(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a
    school in the school zone;
    
    "(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered
    into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual;
    
    "(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her
    official capacity; or
    
    "(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual
    while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access
    to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
    premises is authorized by school authorities.

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    Thanks bcp for the snip. Alright, so in Washington state since our CPL requires a background check, the federal law defaults to the state laws?

    If so, then that's great. Then the only law that pertains to the school zone is RCW 9.41.280 plus the standard CPL RCW's. Right?

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    A couple interesting things pop out when I read RCW 9.41.280. If you are a student or employee of a military academy, you are allow full rights to carry on the military academy(unless the academy has rules against it).

    Also, it seems that if you have to go into the building for any reason other than to pick up or drop off your student, then you have to leave the pistol in your vehicle. Either out of sight and secured in the locked vehicle if loaded, or just secured in the vehicle if it is unloaded.

    This is just theoretical. But, what if you were to take the magazine out of the pistol, and the round out of the chamber and put them in your pocket. Could you bring the ammo with you into the school? As a 'safety' measure. if the pistol is secured in the vehicle?

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    quentusrex wrote:
    Thanks bcp for the snip. Alright, so in Washington state since our CPL requires a background check, the federal law defaults to the state laws?
    I have bno idea what you mean by "defaults." We do not have any federal incorporation of state law going on here, save the permit reference.

    Both soverign's laws are in effect except where the law is unconstitutioal. Under Lopez, arguably even the reenacted federal school gun ban is unconstitutional.

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    quentusrex wrote:
    This is just theoretical. But, what if you were to take the magazine out of the pistol, and the round out of the chamber and put them in your pocket. Could you bring the ammo with you into the school? As a 'safety' measure. if the pistol is secured in the vehicle?
    No law against carrying ammo

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    Interestingly enough, as I reread the federal law for the umpteenth time, it occurs to me that it states
    if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located
    ...BUT, you only need a WA CPL to conceal. What if you are lawfully carrying openly without a CPL?

    I realize that you are then not exempt by the federal law, but it's interesting that those that are legal to openly carry otherwise are not allowed to come within 1000 feet of a school.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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    just_a_car wrote:
    Interestingly enough, as I reread the federal law for the umpteenth time, it occurs to me that it states
    if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located.
    Also note that this excemption excludes people with CPL's from other states.

    IE.. Say I as a Washington CPL holder am in Idaho. Idaho recognizes my CPL, but I am not licensed bythe state in which the school is located.



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    If a state recognizes your permit from another atate then it is in effect licensing you especiall if the states have signed a reciprocal agreement. Normally a reciprocal agreement says that State X recohnizes a permit from State Y as being the same as if you were licensed by State X. Therefore I would think that the school exemption would be in force. Not if there was not a reciprocal agreement rather just straight recognition it may be possible that it may not.

    Of course IANAL and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express las night.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Also, it seems that if you have to go into the building for any reason other than to pick up or drop off your student, then you have to leave the pistol in your vehicle. Either out of sight and secured in the locked vehicle if loaded, or just secured in the vehicle if it is unloaded.
    This is not correct. You cannot go into the school building, period.

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Also, it seems that if you have to go into the building for any reason other than to pick up or drop off your student, then you have to leave the pistol in your vehicle. Either out of sight and secured in the locked vehicle if loaded, or just secured in the vehicle if it is unloaded.
    This is not correct. You cannot go into the school building, period.
    Yes, you can as long as you do as he says in his statement that you so carefully quoted. He said".........leave the pistol in your vehicle. Either out of sight and secured in the locked vehicle if loaded, or just secured in the vehicle if it is unloaded." And that is correct. Then you can enter the school building. However , drop offs and pick ups must be made in the parking lot or on the drive.

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    To back up what Bear (and quentusrex) are saying, here are the relevant portions of RCW 9.41.280 :
    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm...

    ...
    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    ...
    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    ...
    (5) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.
    Among other things, this section is Yet Another Example of how badly-drafted so many of our laws are--(5) says that (3)(f) contains an exception to the ban on bringing firearms into school buildings, but (3)(f) actually says the firearm has to be left in the car.

    But also note that (5)'s list of exceptions does not include (3)(e) (regarding dropping off or picking up a student), so I'd have to conclude that the schools folks were right about the inside-the-building part, and the police wrong, in 911's incident.


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    PT111 wrote:
    If a state recognizes your permit from another state then it is in effect licensing you especiall if the states have signed a reciprocal agreement. Normally a reciprocal agreement says that State X recohnizes a permit from State Y as being the same as if you were licensed by State X. Therefore I would think that the school exemption would be in force. Not if there was not a reciprocal agreement rather just straight recognition it may be possible that it may not.

    Of course IANAL and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express las night.
    http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=2334
    Washington's Firearms and Dangerous Weapons statute
    http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=7772
    Washington concealed pistol licenses will be recognized in the following states, and concealed weapons licenses issued in the listed states will be recognized in Washington State, so long as the handgun is carried in accordance with Washington law.
    Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma,
    Utah

    NOTE: Handguns must be carried in accordance with the law of the state you are visiting. Be sure to check the laws of the other state before traveling there with your handgun.

    Idaho:
    http://www2.state.id.us/ag/faq/conce...ponspermit.htm
    Has signed reciprocity agreements with Arizona, North Carolina, Colorado and South Dakota. Also, Idaho recognizes valid concealed weapons permits from all states. Idaho does not require specific reciprocity agreements with the other states.


    Oregon:
    http://licenseinfo.oregon.gov/index...._item_id=14705
    Generally there is no reciprocity with other states concealed handgun licenses. If you want to carry a concealed handgun in Oregon, you will need an Oregon Concealed Handgun License.


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    M1Gunr wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    If a state recognizes your permit from another state then it is in effect licensing you especiall if the states have signed a reciprocal agreement. Normally a reciprocal agreement says that State X recohnizes a permit from State Y as being the same as if you were licensed by State X. Therefore I would think that the school exemption would be in force. Not if there was not a reciprocal agreement rather just straight recognition it may be possible that it may not.

    Of course IANAL and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express las night.
    http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=2334
    Washington's Firearms and Dangerous Weapons statute
    http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=7772
    Washington concealed pistol licenses will be recognized in the following states, and concealed weapons licenses issued in the listed states will be recognized in Washington State, so long as the handgun is carried in accordance with Washington law.
    Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma,
    Utah

    NOTE: Handguns must be carried in accordance with the law of the state you are visiting. Be sure to check the laws of the other state before traveling there with your handgun.

    Idaho:
    http://www2.state.id.us/ag/faq/conce...ponspermit.htm
    Has signed reciprocity agreements with Arizona, North Carolina, Colorado and South Dakota. Also, Idaho recognizes valid concealed weapons permits from all states. Idaho does not require specific reciprocity agreements with the other states.


    Oregon:
    http://licenseinfo.oregon.gov/index...._item_id=14705
    Generally there is no reciprocity with other states concealed handgun licenses. If you want to carry a concealed handgun in Oregon, you will need an Oregon Concealed Handgun License.
    So what does this mean? Am I correct or absolutely wrong?

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