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Thread: College Student Commentary Goes off Deep End Against Open Carry

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    http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/me...-3402771.shtml

    According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Alabama, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and Virginia are all considering legislation that would allow people to carry concealed guns on campus-a right that people on Utah's college and university campuses already have. None of the states were successful.

    The desire to protect oneself at school has become an ever-growing issue, primarily because of the 28 attacks at schools in the United States since May 2000. Although it's not a new trend, a 2002 study conducted by the Secret Service and Department of Education examined evidence from 37 attacks of targeted schools between 1974 and 2000. All 65 of these shootings occurred at gun-free zones.

    Utah is the only state that has a law allowing people permits to carry concealed weapons on campus. The law was adopted in 2004, and in September 2006 Utah's Supreme Court overruled the U's former campus gun ban.

    Now, more than ever, students and teachers from schools across the United States are demanding this same right to bear arms. There's even a national organization called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus that has more than 30,000 members and focuses on changing laws to allow citizens to carry concealed hand guns on campus.

    The major issue at the U isn't whether or not you can carry, but the ability to carry openly versus concealed. Debates ran rampant on campus until the issue ultimately died at the Senate in March. And that's exactly where it should stay-dead.

    The ability to conceal a weapon is all that is needed to protect yourself and your fellow classmates from a targeted attack. It might be a pain and not as comfortable to conceal your weapon, but it is effective and efficient.

    Utahns should be thankful they are allowed to have guns on campus and quit trying to push the system. It could very easily backfire and inspire gun opponents to try and reinstate the original ban.

    "The problem with carrying open is someone wanting to take your weapon away from you," said Sergeant Arb Nordgren of campus police. "It's the biggest concern for a police officer."

    Crime statistics from the U's Department of Safety report zero firearm incidences on campus in 2005 and 2006. Perhaps criminals with guns don't want to work in these areas because they understand there's a possibility their victims could be packing.

    The requirements of being allowed to conceal carry are much more stringent than open carry. To receive a concealed weapons permit you must be 21, have a valid driver's license, be fingerprinted, have an extensive FBI background check conducted by the Bureau of Criminal Identification and pass a written and shooting range test.

    The BCI reports that only about 2 percent of permits are revoked each year. This helps guarantee that people who obtain and keep CWPs are mostly law-abiding citizens who, unlike open carry individuals, have proven their worthiness to carry concealed guns.

    Most people don't like guns. They don't want to see them, especially at school. They want to believe they are in a perfectly safe bubble and think guns are for bad guys and violent movies. It's wasted energy to attempt to change their minds. Trying to force acceptance by openly carrying will not change their opinions. It will only create a hostile environment and increase their efforts to eliminate guns on campus.

    When you conceal carry, nobody is the wiser. People who are anti-gun don't have to get nervous, and permit holders still have their weapons with them on campus. U gun owners should have appreciation for all they enjoy, not muddle the system with unnecessary demands. Concealed carry is a perfect scenario and something many other states can only dream about. Let's just allow open carry to rest in peace.



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    So could they stop you from going in to the stadium during a football game?

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    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    I would like to see somebody grab a gun from a LV3 serpa if they didn't know about the mechanics of that holster. ROFL

    That would shut that guy up.

    Kevin
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    wow such lies thats the Utah Daily Chronicle for you
    Zach
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    jaredbelch wrote:
    So could they stop you from going in to the stadium during a football game?
    What is the text of Utah's preemption of colleges?

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    has anyone on these forums open carried on the universities in utah?

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    Mike wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    So could they stop you from going in to the stadium during a football game?
    What is the text of Utah's preemption of colleges?
    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.

    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.

    and

    76-10-500. Uniform law.

    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.


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    tito887 wrote:
    has anyone on these forums open carried on the universities in utah?
    I have.

    So has Sgt Jensen, UTOC, and I'm sure there are others.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    So could they stop you from going in to the stadium during a football game?
    What is the text of Utah's preemption of colleges?
    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.

    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.

    and

    76-10-500. Uniform law.

    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.
    I don't see an exception to preemption for football games.

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    That's kind of what I was thinking... I guess I'll find out how they react, I was planning on going to a U of U football game this year.

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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    I would like to see somebody grab a gun from a LV3 serpa if they didn't know about the mechanics of that holster. ROFL

    That would shut that guy up.

    Kevin
    I'd like to see it tried knowing the mechanics. It's just not set up to work for anyone but the guy wearing it.

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    FogRider wrote:
    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    I would like to see somebody grab a gun from a LV3 serpa if they didn't know about the mechanics of that holster. ROFL

    That would shut that guy up.
    I'd like to see it tried knowing the mechanics. It's just not set up to work for anyone but the guy wearing it.
    It's not that hard. It takes two hands and a little practice, though.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    So could they stop you from going in to the stadium during a football game?
    I am sure they would try if you were open carrying. The law, however, is clearly in your favor. Here is one small detail to worry about...

    When TJ and I were detained for open carry at Utah Valley University, the Attorney General told the campus police that we were lawful to open carry on school property, but our sidearms needed to be unloaded. Now, we all know (including the AG) that the law says otherwise. He said this because Utah Valley University and the University of Utah have threatened to sue him again if his opines that loaded open carry is lawful on campus.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    He said this because Utah Valley University and the University of Utah have threatened to sue him again if his opines that loaded open carry is lawful on campus.
    It's a sad state of affairs when even a State Attorney General can be cowed by the threat of a lawsuit that he knows will fail.

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    So could they stop you from going in to the stadium during a football game?
    I am sure they would try if you were open carrying. The law, however, is clearly in your favor. Here is one small detail to worry about...

    When TJ and I were detained for open carry at Utah Valley University, the Attorney General told the campus police that we were lawful to open carry on school property, but our sidearms needed to be unloaded. Now, we all know (including the AG) that the law says otherwise. He said this because Utah Valley University and the University of Utah have threatened to sue him again if his opines that loaded open carry is lawful on campus.
    I guess the one thing going for me is that the AG shouldn't be at the game to tell them it has to be unloaded.

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    Does anyone know if you are allowed to open carry at the salt lake community college. What is there policy that is where I currently go to school.

    Thanks

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    Amendment 2 wrote:
    Does anyone know if you are allowed to open carry at the salt lake community college. What is there policy that is where I currently go to school.

    Thanks
    Since SLCC is owned by Salt Lake (correct me if I'm wrong) Preemption also comes in to play here, and they can't enforce any rules about firearms. So you are good to go. OC or CC.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    That's kind of what I was thinking... I guess I'll find out how they react, I was planning on going to a U of U football game this year.
    I have to admit that I have never been to a UofU football game....

    Shall we make it a group activity?

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    Amendment 2 wrote:
    Does anyone know if you are allowed to open carry at the salt lake community college. What is there policy that is where I currently go to school.

    Thanks
    You tell us - is salt lake community college a "state entity?"

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    The ability to conceal a weapon is all that is needed to protect yourself and your fellow classmates from a targeted attack. It might be a pain and not as comfortable to conceal your weapon, but it is effective and efficient.
    ... while it may be "all you need to protect yourself...from a targeted attack" it will do NOTHING to prevent an attack. Wouldn't that counteract the statement indicating it's efficiency? I always thought it was better (and more effective and efficient) to deter an attack from happening in the first place than to try and stop it once it has already started.

    Utahns should be thankful they are allowed to have guns on campus and quit trying to push the system. It could very easily backfire and inspire gun opponents to try and reinstate the original ban.
    Right. Who wants to actually have the few rights granted us by the laws in force? (Sense the sarcasm)


    The requirements of being allowed to conceal carry are much more stringent than open carry. To receive a concealed weapons permit you must be 21, have a valid driver's license, be fingerprinted, have an extensive FBI background check conducted by the Bureau of Criminal Identification and pass a written and shooting range test.
    So... anyone else familiar with the written and shooting range test that you have to take to get your CCW permit? ... oh, right! There isn't one. Silly me... I thought newspapers were supposed to be accurate in the "facts" reported.


    The BCI reports that only about 2 percent of permits are revoked each year. This helps guarantee that people who obtain and keep CWPs are mostly law-abiding citizens who, unlike open carry individuals, have proven their worthiness to carry concealed guns.
    I didn't know that those that are open carrying had ever tried to prove "...their worthiness to carry concealed guns." I thought they were exercising their right to open carry - not attempting to conceal carry despite their unworthiness.

    Sorry - TOO much to comment on here. This article serves as a great reminder to not believe everything that you read.


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    swillden wrote:
    FogRider wrote:
    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    I would like to see somebody grab a gun from a LV3 serpa if they didn't know about the mechanics of that holster. ROFL

    That would shut that guy up.
    I'd like to see it tried knowing the mechanics. It's just not set up to work for anyone but the guy wearing it.
    It's not that hard. It takes two hands and a little practice, though.
    Yeah ummm.. They teach that at the criminal academy, right? Bad guys out there practicing as we speak? lol

    Kevin
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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Yeah ummm.. They teach that at the criminal academy, right? Bad guys out there practicing as we speak?
    Given the number of OCers around, probably not. But I was just correcting the misperception that a Serpa makes your gun grab-proof. It doesn't. It does make it harder to grab, but you still need to be vigilant.

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    Salt Lake Community College is INDEED a State sponsered institue of higher learning.

    Same rules apply there as at ANY other UTAH state owned facility...

    Now, if they will just admit it (joke here--- no personal knowledge)

    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    jaredbelch wrote:
    That's kind of what I was thinking... I guess I'll find out how they react, I was planning on going to a U of U football game this year.
    I have to admit that I have never been to a UofU football game....

    Shall we make it a group activity?

    JoeSparky
    There's only one U game I would be interested in and that's not until late Nov.

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    swillden wrote:
    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Yeah ummm.. They teach that at the criminal academy, right? Bad guys out there practicing as we speak?
    Given the number of OCers around, probably not. But I was just correcting the misperception that a Serpa makes your gun grab-proof. It doesn't. It does make it harder to grab, but you still need to be vigilant.
    I see your point, however, I don't seem to recall me saying it makes you gun "grab-proof", as there is no such thing. Depending on one's perception of how I wrote it, I can see how you might have misunderstood what I was implying, which was that it is difficult to grab it but not impossible. I also neglected to see that I posted that people not be vigilant.

    I guess I need to be more clear on my posting as some like to make assumptions based on them. Am I going to have to cover every single tiny loophole in my writing now? By the way, who exactly has the misconception that a serpa makes your gun grab proof? I didn't see anybody. Maybe somebody implied that it makes it difficult, but nobody came right out and said, word for word, that the serpa makes your gun grab proof. I'm not going on the offensive. I'm just stating the obvious. No hard feelings here. Just try not to "assume" so much, aye?

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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