Lapeer County is decidedly ANTI-GUN

RedCar · Aug 25, 2008

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Lapeer County is decidedly ANTI-GUN...

In Response to Michigan State Police Legal Update 66 of June 18, 2008, which says in part “it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public, the asst Prosecutor for Lapeer County (acting chairman of gun board) allegedly sent the following letter to the MSP:

Lt. Greg Zarotney
Michigan State Police
Legal Resources Unit
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, Michigan 48823
(517) 336-6326

Dear Lt. Zarotney,

I am writing regarding a recent statement in a newsletter called the "Legal Update" that is published by the Legal Resources Unit of the Michigan State Police (MAP). The Legal Update is available to the general public on the MSP website at http://www.michigan/gov/msp-legal. In the June edition of the Legal Update (copy attached) the following statement was printed: "Subject to MCL 750.234d, it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public." (Emphasis in original.)

I do not read this as an accurate statement of the law. Under MCL 750.234e it is illegal to brandish a firearm in public. Under MCL 750.170 is it is illegal to create a disturbance in a public street, place or building. Under MCL 750.226 it is illegal to carry a firearm with unlawful intent. Under MCL 750.863a it is illegal to carry a firearm without due caution and circumspection for the rights, safety, and property of others.

The statement published in the Legal Update could be misleading to some. At best, it is not illegal in Michigan to carry a visible, holstered pistol, in certain public areas. At worst, carrying a visible pistol in Michigan will generate numerous law enforcement problems, create grave public concern and violate numerous provisions of law. Yet the statement in the Legal Update appears to advocate the open carry of firearms.

I believe the statement in the Legal Update should be retracted and a clarification published. Please do no hesitate to contact me immediately should you wish to discuss this very important issue in more detail.

Thank you for your attention,

Tom Sparrow
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
Lapeer County Prosecutors Office
255 Clay Street
Lapeer, Michigan 48446
(810) 667-0326

In Response:

[size=Mr. Sparrow,]

[size=]

[size=F/Lt. Zarotney has asked that I contact you regarding your concerns about our recent Legal Update note on openly carrying pistols.]

[size=]

[size=We included the note because questions concerning the legality of so-called "open carry" are some of the most frequent we receive from police officers and the public. Further, there is a small group of open carry advocates thatgather in local parks in various][size=Michigan][size= cities wearing visible, holstered pistols. The most recent gathering was this past weekend in][size=Burton][size=. The following link willtake you toa Flint Journal article about the][size=Burton][size= gathering: [url=http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/openly_carrying_their_guns_gro.html]http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/openly_carrying_their_guns_gro.html[/url]]

[size=]

[size=As you noted, open carry can create concern among members of the public and it can certianly be problematic for law enforcement officers. When people see someone walking around with a holstered pistol, calls to the police will most certainly follow. However, the mere act of openly carrying a pistol is legal in][size=Michigan][size=, and we want officers to know that so they won't unlawfully detain or arrest a citizen for doing so.]

[size=]

[size=Of course,a person openly carrying a pistol might do things that make his or her actions unlawful (e.g., unholsteringthe pistol and brandishing it). But we chose not to list the litany of potential violations because it has been our experience that once police officers realize that open carry is legal, they know to look beyond theholstered pistol to determine whether another statute has been violated.]

[size=]

[size=As it stands today, we will not retract our statement in the Legal Update because it accurately states the law concerning a topic often confused by police officers. In the coming days our staff will discuss the need to provide more information as we did in April and May of 2007 (the last time we discussed this topic in the Update).]

[size=]

[size=Feel free to contact usshould you need more information.]

[size=]

[size=Sincerely,]

[size=]

[size=Sgt. Thomas Deasy
][size=Michigan][size=[font="Times New Roman"] State Police
Executive Resource Section
[/font]][size=[font="Times New Roman"]714 S. Harrison Rd.[/font]][size=
][size=East Lansing][size=,][size=MI][size=][size=
[font="Times New Roman"](517) 336-6441[/font]]

SpringerXDacp · Aug 25, 2008

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I would suggest calling the "Prosecutor" and let him know to be at the Cramton Park at 1:00pm this Sunday and that there will be plenty of burgers and dogs to go around.

Welcome to OCDO RedCar.

dougwg · Aug 25, 2008

imported post

RedCar wrote:

Lapeer County is decidedly ANTI-GUN...

In Response to Michigan State Police Legal Update 66 of June 18, 2008, which says in part “it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public, the asst Prosecutor for Lapeer County (acting chairman of gun board) allegedly sent the following letter to the MSP:

Lt. Greg Zarotney
Michigan State Police
Legal Resources Unit
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, Michigan 48823
(517) 336-6326

Dear Lt. Zarotney,

I am writing regarding a recent statement in a newsletter called the "Legal Update" that is published by the Legal Resources Unit of the Michigan State Police (MAP). The Legal Update is available to the general public on the MSP website at http://www.michigan/gov/msp-legal. In the June edition of the Legal Update (copy attached) the following statement was printed: "Subject to MCL 750.234d, it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public." (Emphasis in original.)

I do not read this as an accurate statement of the law. Under MCL 750.234e it is illegal to brandish a firearm in public. Under MCL 750.170 is it is illegal to create a disturbance in a public street, place or building. Under MCL 750.226 it is illegal to carry a firearm with unlawful intent. Under MCL 750.863a it is illegal to carry a firearm without due caution and circumspection for the rights, safety, and property of others.

The statement published in the Legal Update could be misleading to some. At best, it is not illegal in Michigan to carry a visible, holstered pistol, in certain public areas. At worst, carrying a visible pistol in Michigan will generate numerous law enforcement problems, create grave public concern and violate numerous provisions of law. Yet the statement in the Legal Update appears to advocate the open carry of firearms.

I believe the statement in the Legal Update should be retracted and a clarification published. Please do no hesitate to contact me immediately should you wish to discuss this very important issue in more detail.

Thank you for your attention,

Tom Sparrow
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
Lapeer County Prosecutors Office
255 Clay Street
Lapeer, Michigan 48446
(810) 667-0326

In Response:

Mr. Sparrow,

Lt. Zarotney has asked that I contact you regarding your concerns about our recent Legal Update note on openly carrying pistols.

We included the note because questions concerning the legality of so-called "open carry" are some of the most frequent we receive from police officers and the public. Further, there is a small group of open carry advocates that gather in local parks in various Michigan cities wearing visible, holstered pistols. The most recent gathering was this past weekend in Burton . The following link will take you to a Flint Journal article about the Burton gathering: http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/openly_carrying_their_guns_gro.html

As you noted, open carry can create concern among members of the public and it can certianly be problematic for law enforcement officers. When people see someone walking around with a holstered pistol, calls to the police will most certainly follow. However, the mere act of openly carrying a pistol is legal in Michigan , and we want officers to know that so they won't unlawfully detain or arrest a citizen for doing so.

Of course, a person openly carrying a pistol might do things that make his or her actions unlawful (e.g., unholstering the pistol and brandishing it). But we chose not to list the litany of potential violations because it has been our experience that once police officers realize that open carry is legal, they know to look beyond the holstered pistol to determine whether another statute has been violated.

As it stands today, we will not retract our statement in the Legal Update because it accurately states the law concerning a topic often confused by police officers. In the coming days our staff will discuss the need to provide more information as we did in April and May of 2007 (the last time we discussed this topic in the Update).

Feel free to contact us should you need more information.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing , MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

I love Sgt.Deasy!

He basically told the Ass. Prosecutor to pound sand. :lol:

Michigander · Aug 25, 2008

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I would't in any way worry about anyone being anti gun in Lapeer. If the police give you trouble, it won't hold up in court, and you might have a case for a law suit. I don't see it though, because I've seen the Lapeer cops come by to say hi and watch people shoot at the Pit, a local Lapeer free outside shooting range on state land.

Plus, I'd say most people in Lapeer are quite pro gun. Eveyone I ever met from there loves guns. My guess is it's a case of a random dumbass who has no business assisting the prosecutor since he can't even figure out how to look up AG opinions. I mean seriously, if we can, why can't this dingus?

Edit to add: Welcome Red Car!

WARCHILD · Aug 26, 2008

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I love Sgt.Deasy!

He basically told the Ass. Prosecutor to pound sand. :lol:
+1....... Maybe I should send him an apple log and save him a couple trips to the snack machine for stale danish.

ghostrider · Aug 26, 2008

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Tom Sparrow wrote:

I do not read this as an accurate statement of the law. Under MCL 750.234e it is illegal to brandish a firearm in public.

Mr. Sparrow needs to read Michigan Attorney General Opinion No. 7101.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10176.htm

He should pay particular attention to the part that says,

Michigan AG Opinion No. 7101 wrote:

...

In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

...

Emphasis added.

Tom Sparrow wrote:

…Under MCL 750.170 is it is illegal to create a disturbance in a public street, place or building….

That law is for disturbance of lawful meetings, not offending the public at large.

[align=center]THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
[/align]

750.170 Disturbance of lawful meetings.
Sec. 170.
Disturbance of lawful meetings—Any person who shall make or excite any disturbance or contention in any tavern, store or grocery, manufacturing establishment or any other business place or in any street, lane, alley, highway, public building, grounds or park, or at any election or other public meeting where citizens are peaceably and lawfully assembled, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xa4htsnghxm2spq0mixcaf55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-170

Tom Sparrow wrote:

…Under MCL 750.226 it is illegal to carry a firearm with unlawful intent….

[align=center]THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
[/align]

750.226 Firearm or dangerous weapon; carrying with unlawful intent.
Sec. 226.
Carrying firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent—Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xa4htsnghxm2spq0mixcaf55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-226

He’s right about this, but only in that it is illegal to carry it with unlawful intent. OC doesn’t indicate unlawful intent, as the Michigan Constitution states one may do so for defense of himself and the state.

[align=center]STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963
[/align]

§ 6 Bearing of arms.
Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ibalak55awwc41554sbrvc45))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Article-I-6

Tom Sparrow wrote:

…Under MCL 750.863a it is illegal to carry a firearm without due caution and circumspection for the rights, safety, and property of others…

He’s misquoting this one, because there is no such law as MCL 750.863a. My best guess is that he is referring to MCL 752.863a.

[align=center]CARELESS, RECKLESS, OR NEGLIGENT USE OF FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
Act 45 of 1952
[/align]

752.863a Reckless, wanton use or negligent discharge of firearm; penalty.
Sec. 3.
Any person who shall recklessly or heedlessly or wilfully or wantonly use, carry, handle or discharge any firearm without due caution and circumspection for the rights, safety or property of others shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xa4htsnghxm2spq0mixcaf55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-752-863a

He may be suggesting that a holstered firearm is somehow in violation of this law, but the AG Opinion No. 7101 would refute that as well.

So far, all we know for sure is that Mr. Sparrow allegedly sent this letter. At this point, it’s just hearsay. I’d like to see something else to prove that this actually happened.

RedCar,

Were did you get this information from?

Venator · Aug 26, 2008

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Well, we shall see what the PA does when he sees or hears about the picnic this weekend at the Lapeer Park. Sounds like he was trying to find a way to oppress OC in his county. He will lose.

Generaldet · Aug 26, 2008

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Guys, we are making some serious headway here. Letters like this will happen as the word of open carry gets out. I for one see this as another small victory. The MSP standing behind and upholding the law to an uneducated Assistant prosecutor. I am proud to stand next to all of you and keep raising awareness any way I can, it's an honor. I'd be more than happy to personally hand deliver an invitation to this guy myself. Or a better way may be to publicly do so in a press release/ news article.

ghostrider · Aug 26, 2008

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I'd still like to see some reference that would indicate that this actually happened. Where did this information come from?

Venator · Aug 26, 2008

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ghostrider wrote:

I'd still like to see some reference that would indicate that this actually happened. Where did this information come from?

Well one way is to call Sgt Dealy and ask (517) 336-6441 . He is a nice guy and very helpful.

ghostrider · Aug 26, 2008

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Venator wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

I'd still like to see some reference that would indicate that this actually happened. Where did this information come from?

Click to expand...

Well one way is to call Sgt Dealy and ask (517) 336-6441 . He is a nice guy and very helpful.

Might have to do that. I'll also have to ask him about that line on the MSP website that says the Law "defines" lawful purpose as. I thought someone already asked that.

Lapeer County is decidedly ANTI-GUN

RedCar

New member

SpringerXDacp

New member

dougwg

Regular Member

Michigander

Regular Member

WARCHILD

Regular Member

ghostrider

Regular Member

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

Generaldet

Regular Member

ghostrider

Regular Member

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

ghostrider

Regular Member