Soliciting Contributions for Case Against Denver, CO

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[sup]Current Balance: $250 Paypal, $50 Snailmail[/sup]


I got the approval from my attorney to discuss this issue publicly, in order to solicit contributions.

I intend to file a lawsuit against the City and County of Denver for refusing to accept applications for concealed handgun licenses for non-residents of the state of Colorado, as well as suing the state of Colorado for their violation of my state citizenship rights by prohibiting the recognition of my Florida carry license under SB07-34 because I am a resident of Washington State. This is in violation of the privileges and immunities clause of the 14th amendment, under Ward v. Maryland and Saenz v. Roe My attorney is John Monroe, who is legal counsel for GeorgiaCarry.org and has scored several victories in both Georgia and federal court in regards to the gun rights of Georgians.

As a result of Colorado's law of SB07-34, as well as Denver's open carry ban, I had a life threatening experience when coming back when I flew back in from Colorado, that actually happened here in Washington State.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=11286&forum_id=55

We are targeting Denver as well for three specific reasons:

1) The Sheriff's Departments and the DPD are the issuing authority for licenses in the state of Colorado. Targeting the State of Colorado solely would be imprecise as they are not the ones issuing licenses.

2) Denver has an open carry ban. Denver fight all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court to keep their open carry ban and they are only keeping it by the skins teeth of the fact that they ruled 3-3. Suing the City and County of Denver forces them to make a choice: Either repeal their open carry ban or start accepting applications and approving licenses to carry.

3) There is also a privileges and immunities issue that will likely be addressed by their passage of SB07-34 preventing me as a Washington State resident from being able to comply with state law. This violates my civil liberties as they (State of Colorado) are discriminating against me based on state citizenship, and this violates Saenz.

I know that there are many thousands effected by the law change, and it's time to fight back against the anti-gunners in Denver. I myself can contribute some money to the effort but since there are so many affected by the SB07-34 law (which prohibits recognition of non-resident licenses of reciprocal states), I'm hoping that some others may be willing to help shoulder the load. Though John Monroe is a good attorney who doesn't charge an outrageous rate, he does have to travel to Colorado and he needs to be able to make a living just like any of us, and has bills to pay. I myself am in the same boat, and cannot simply drop thousands of dollars into this case in one fell swoop.

Goyke v. Toomer

The above complaint is a partial example of what will be filed against Denver.

I have a paypal account that you may donate to, at lonnie.wilson @ comcast.net, put in there "Colorado case" and I will send it to my attorney. If you prefer snail mail/fedex/UPS or whatever delivery services, you can send it my attorney directly at:

John Monroe
re: Colorado Case
9640 Coleman Rd
Roswell, GA 30075

Regards,

Lonnie Wilson

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I support Mr. Wilson in this effort. While there may be some disagreement among us about which of the 3 arguments will/will not be effective, surely a case which emphasizes all 3 has a chance. I urge other members of this forum and the entire ODCO community to support Mr. Wilson, even if not financially. Let's let him know that we appreciate his contribution in time and money. It does affect us all.

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You have no case against the city/Denver County for their following state law. None. It will be tossed immediately. The P&I clause is also a loser. NO CASE LAW supports it. State Police Powers are the issue and they exist and have been upheld time and again in case law. As I've said many times before: try and fish in MI with your OH fishing license.And the power to protect public safety and welfare is far better established than the power to make sure there is enough trout for residents to catch. These are losers and a waste of money to even begin to research.

The OC ban in Denver County is another issue, and one I totally support you in trying to overturn. Spend your effort--and money, where there is a chance to win. Not tilting at nonexistant windmills. In that I wish you the best of luck.

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What the money asking wolf is not mentioning in his requests for cash is that he handed them a FL CWP and a WA st DL so they kicked it back and he is pissy cause he wasnt allowed to take his gun to denver.

The funny thing is that he made a CHOICE to leave it in WA and the incident happened in WA.

Its not our fault he did not think ahead and its not our responsibility to pay for his lack of foresight. He is also asking for money on the WA forum as well and i am beyond myself as to how much of a waste of time it is.

The reason why his lawyer wants all this money is because he knows it has no chance of winning and with just about anyone money will buy you there time not a win.

So i think if people in CO are upset about denver then its up to you people to deal with it, but from what i can see not many of you seem to be to upset over this. So Lonnie if you are reading this..........

Its not all about you if this was that big of a problem dont you think the residents of CO would have taken active intrest in this and started getting it fixed long before you got your boxers in a bunch?

So quit asking people for money you dont see me asking people for money do you? I dont see anyone else asking for money either. Your problem your bill quit trying to make others pay for your lack of foresight.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

"What the money asking wolf is not mentioning in his requests for cash is that he handed them a FL CWP and a WA st DL so they kicked it back and he is pissy cause he wasnt allowed to take his gun to denver.

Handed "them" a FL CWP? Who's "them"? Do you even know what you are even talking about?

and what's wrong with being a wolf? :what::lol:

The funny thing is that he made a CHOICE to leave it in WA and the incident happened in WA.

We had this conversation in conference with just_a_car and sv_libertarian. You stated that you'd rather challenge the Denver OC law by getting yourself arrested for OCing in violation of Denver's ordinance, as you believe that would be the better way.

Criminal defense cases make for bad case law.

You cannot conceal carry in Colorado without a license. PERIOD. You cannot open carry in Denver. PERIOD.

It sounded like to me in the conference that you'd rather directly challenge a law and then throw yourself at the mercy of the court to strike down the law.

Your way of doing things is similar to Hollis Wayne Fincher, who built himself a machine-gun and expected by some miraculous belief that the the courts would exonerate him on Second Amendment grounds. That didn't happen.

My way of doing things is similar to Dick Heller from the DC gun ban case, which is to sue the District of Columbia for violating his civil liberties.

Who's in prison right now after the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals hung him out to dry? Hollis Wayne Fincher.

Who's still free and was able to register his revolver? Dick Heller.

Who's way of doing things is better? All of you here can be the judge, and to me Heller certainly isn't a "coward", which you repeatedly inferred and accused me of being for not just flat out getting myself arrested for open carry in Denver.

Its not our fault he did not think ahead and its not our responsibility to pay for his lack of foresight. He is also asking for money on the WA forum as well and i am beyond myself as to how much of a waste of time it is.

So you impugn my integrity, using misrepresentations of the situation?

The reason why his lawyer wants all this money is because he knows it has no chance of winning and with just about anyone money will buy you there time not a win.

If my lawyer was only in it for the money, he'd be charging me a lot more than $2000 to start. $2000 for a federal civil rights case to start is CHUMP change compared to what others are willing to charge. He's a believer in the gun rights cause, and the VP of GeorgiaCarry.org.

So i think if people in CO are upset about denver then its up to you people to deal with it, but from what i can see not many of you seem to be to upset over this. So Lonnie if you are reading this..........

Its not all about you if this was that big of a problem dont you think the residents of CO would have taken active intrest in this and started getting it fixed long before you got your boxers in a bunch?

Not listening to what I said in the conference, eh?

Let's go over this again.

1994: Colorado Supreme Court rules in Robertson v. City and County of Denver that the city's Assault Weapons Ordinance is constitutional under Article 2, Section 13, due to it not implicating a "fundamental right"

2002: Colorado Appellate Court in Trinen v. City and County of Denver finds Denver Municipal Code 38-117 is constitutional. The appellate panel interpreted a rational basis test out of the Robertson, and essentially stated that because Denver is a "big city with crime problems", they can ban carry and strictly license it. This essentially destroyed the provisions of bearing arms in A2S13, in which this court completely ignored the "concealed weapons" provisions in that section. This was before shall-issue CCW passed in 2003. Read this again: The Colorado Court system essentially turned A2S13 into toilet paper.

2003: Colorado Legislature, sick of Denver's continual abuses and the CCW discretion problems, and seeing that the state judiciary was abdicating their responsibilities passes SB03-24 and SB03-25. 24 brought in shall-issue concealed handgun licenses, and 25 preempted gun laws, including open carry laws.

Denver immediately files a lawsuit against the State of Colorado. John Sternberg of the Aurora Gun Club files a lawsuit against the City and County of Denver to force them to accept SB03-25. This was combined together at District court level.

2004: Denver wins in part, loses in part. State of Colorado's car carry provisions stay, as well as the shall-issue licensing law, and the ability to carry in Denver parks concealed with CHL. Judge Meyer crafts a new exemption in A2S13, stating that because Colorado law doesn't license open carry, the cities can regulate it despite a clear statutory command to the contrary. State of Colorado appeals, and Denver cross appeals, and John Sternberg also appeals.

Supreme Court of Colorado takes the case on certiorari soon after and sets up oral arguments.

2006: Supreme Court of Colorado splits 3-3. Justice Eid, who was sworn in before oral arguments were done in 2005, represented the State of Colorado in it's appeal to have SB03-25 recognized in the same case. Eid recuses (she was likely a pro SB25 vote), causing a split. By operation of law the lower court decision is affirmed within the confines of the lower court's decision, meaning that Denver v. State and Sternberg is standing case law in the Denver Circuit only. John Sternberg spent a tremendous amount of his own money, only to be dashed by a split court decision. If he himself relitigates, Eid will likely recuse again.

From 1994 on, the Colorado State Court system essentially treated their RKBA provision similar to the states of Illinois, Kansas, and Massachusetts where it essentially means nothing. Even a clear STATUTORY preemption law was mistreated by the Colorado courts and crapped on. The best gun rights attorneys in Colorado absolutely refused to re-litigate the issue in state court because they are afraid that Eid would recuse herself again. Believe me, I asked.

Then the "June miracle" occured.

6 26 2008: Heller decision released, re-emphasizes the possession of firearms and the carrying of them in self defense to be an individual fundamental right. The Heller court repeatedly warns the lower federal courts not to rely on Cruikshank or other incorporation cases involving the 2nd amendment as guidance.

Since the Colorado State Courts have completely abdicated their responsibilities to protect their state constitution (see Trinen), this essentially means A2S13 is dead letter, which leaves the only way to challenge Denver's laws is via a 14th amendment incorporation challenge via due process or privileges and immunities. This must be done via the federal courts, as the state courts have treated the idea of bearing arms openly with such disdain that they cannot be trusted to rule fairly and accurately.

This is an obvious case where you didn't listen to a single word I was saying in the conference. I explained all of this to you but it seems to be going in one ear or out the other, or I have to repeat myself over and over again for you to remember, and then when you do remember certain things, you twist it to make me look like the bad guy.

So quit asking people for money you dont see me asking people for money do you? I dont see anyone else asking for money either. Your problem your bill quit trying to make others pay for your lack of foresight.

No one's forcing you to pay for anything. My statements were made very clear on that subject. Sounds like you have a personal problem with me. Stow it.

I honestly haven't seen any Colorado gun owners on this forum step up and say that they're going to go for a full challenge against Denver's gun ordinances in light of Heller. I certainly would encourage any such open carry challenge by a Colorado resident to go forward. Does someone here have the gravitas and the funding to do such a challenge? I know there's lots of complaining about Denver's OC law, but not a lot in terms of direct action.

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Lonnie is right. People should stop knocking him. He's actually trying to do something. Most gun owners in Colorado are lazy and have let the situation get as bad as it did.

Lonnie did his homework in this case and if he wins then you all will have your foot in your mouth. If he loses.... he still did more than most Colorado gunowners who are so lazy it's pathetic.

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I have a CCW which is legal in the entire state. I can carry in a bar and anyplace else, absent a metal detector in a government building. That OC is prohibited in Denver County is of little consequence to me. A large city is the last place I'd open carry for a multitude of reasons. CO is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and El Paso County the most in CO. If these rights are threatened, I will fight it in any way necessary. Don't think CO gun owners are lazy as a group; we're merely happy to live here with the current laws. That being said, I've already posted my thoughts on this case--where it's a loser and where I hope he prevails. Nothing personal intended in any way, but if he posts on this forum he can expect replies, both pro and con.

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The diffrence is that he isnt going to win and any good lawyer will tell him that. Second of all i made it very clear before and i will do so again.

Not a WA problem! If it was that big of a deal in CO dont you think the CO residents would have taken up this fight long before lonnie did it? So yes i am going to challenge lonnie on this until everyone realizes what a waste of time this truely is.

It is a battle that at this time can not be won and of course its not entirely all his money he is wasting. Ya know most people who give money for a cause ususally like to see something good come out of it.

When Lonnie looses what good will come out of that? Lonnie made a choice and it was a poor choice. So now he wants everyone else to pay for his lack of foresight?
I think not.

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Lonnie has been very active in Washington State. It is due largely to his individual efforts that many police departments in Washington have issued or are issuing training bulletins and memos acknowledging the legality of open carry. He has donated countless hours to researching the law and promoting open carry. When others request help he is always willing to assist in any way he can. He oftenwrites briefs and legal explanations that assist OCrs in matters dealing with LE. Whendiscussing training bulletins or OC training with LE trainers it is not uncommon forLonnie's name to come up.

He, we, may not win this battle in Denver (and I am sure he knows that) but he feels it is worth fighting. We did not loose our gun rights in one fell swoop nor will we regain them that way. Each battle must be fought with vigor and little by little we can regain lost ground.

Lonnie: You have my donation. I will send more next week

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From the initial posting above it seems John Monroe is the attorney. He is also the attorneyfor Georgiacarry.org. He does notdo frivolus cases. He's a major force in changing the carry laws in GA for the better. You couldn't get abetter firearms attorney than John Monroe.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

The diffrence is that he isnt going to win and any good lawyer will tell him that. Second of all i made it very clear before and i will do so again.

Not a WA problem! If it was that big of a deal in CO dont you think the CO residents would have taken up this fight long before lonnie did it? So yes i am going to challenge lonnie on this until everyone realizes what a waste of time this truely is.

It is a battle that at this time can not be won and of course its not entirely all his money he is wasting. Ya know most people who give money for a cause ususally like to see something good come out of it.

When Lonnie looses what good will come out of that? Lonnie made a choice and it was a poor choice. So now he wants everyone else to pay for his lack of foresight?
I think not.

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Jarhead, no one is forcing you to endorse this action or give money towards it. It sounds like you have a personal issue with Mr. Wilson beyond the scope of this matter. You've made yourself heard. Everyone knows you don't support it. Move on.

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Gunslinger wrote:

I have a CCW which is legal in the entire state. I can carry in a bar and anyplace else, absent a metal detector in a government building. That OC is prohibited in Denver County is of little consequence to me. A large city is the last place I'd open carry for a multitude of reasons. CO is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and El Paso County the most in CO. If these rights are threatened, I will fight it in any way necessary. Don't think CO gun owners are lazy as a group; we're merely happy to live here with the current laws. That being said, I've already posted my thoughts on this case--where it's a loser and where I hope he prevails. Nothing personal intended in any way, but if he posts on this forum he can expect replies, both pro and con.

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Speak for yourself, and not for me. I am not happy with the laws here and too wish them to be changed.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

The diffrence is that he isnt going to win and any good lawyer will tell him that. Second of all i made it very clear before and i will do so again.

Not a WA problem! If it was that big of a deal in CO dont you think the CO residents would have taken up this fight long before lonnie did it? So yes i am going to challenge lonnie on this until everyone realizes what a waste of time this truely is.

It is a battle that at this time can not be won and of course its not entirely all his money he is wasting. Ya know most people who give money for a cause ususally like to see something good come out of it.

When Lonnie looses what good will come out of that? Lonnie made a choice and it was a poor choice. So now he wants everyone else to pay for his lack of foresight?
I think not.

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The lawyer in the case is well known and also knows what he's doing. So does lonnie (have you ever been to the WA forum?). I would have taken up the same fight, but I cannot afford it! Nor is my personal lawyer ready for a case of that magnitude.

Nothing worth doing is easy, and nothing worth doing comes quickly. You fight as many battles as you can till you win.

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lopoetve wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

I have a CCW which is legal in the entire state. I can carry in a bar and anyplace else, absent a metal detector in a government building. That OC is prohibited in Denver County is of little consequence to me. A large city is the last place I'd open carry for a multitude of reasons. CO is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and El Paso County the most in CO. If these rights are threatened, I will fight it in any way necessary. Don't think CO gun owners are lazy as a group; we're merely happy to live here with the current laws. That being said, I've already posted my thoughts on this case--where it's a loser and where I hope he prevails. Nothing personal intended in any way, but if he posts on this forum he can expect replies, both pro and con.

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Speak for yourself, and not for me. I am not happy with the laws here and too wish them to be changed.

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I always speak for myself. What do you want changed? Outside of the Denver County, that is, which I agree with you on.

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Granted, there are a few "improvements" that can be made to CO, but overall, we've been pretty fortunate as compared to most of the country. Aside from Denver, there's no AWB, firearm restrictions, no capacity restrictions, no ammo restrictions, no bar restrictions, unfettered OC (for the most part), NFA's are fine as allowable by fed law, a healthy Make My Day law and Castle Doctrine, and an overall healthy respect and love for firearms/self-defense/hunting/shooting sports.
Things to change? Denver is a given. It's easier to just say "Denver" instead of writing the laundry list of their "offenses".
The 2007 CCW reciprocity law. That does suck.
Carry of firearms while on a snowmobile. Kinda sucks.

Not to sound like an ass, but maybe you should spend some time in NJ/NY and see how rough those LAC's have it over there. Then you'll learn to appreciate what you have here.

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Both Denver and Breckenridge are anti gun.. Breckenridge is home of the elite. They have their body guards and security systems. They don't want the little people to carry.

Denver wants only cops to have guns. So that makes 2 groups there with guns, cops and badguys.

I can carry anywhere in the state concealed except of course for federal buildings with detectors. Even some of our college campuses now allow CCW on campus.

Denver is a lot like D.C., it ignores the reality of life for the common person.

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Gunslinger wrote:

lopoetve wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

I have a CCW which is legal in the entire state. I can carry in a bar and anyplace else, absent a metal detector in a government building. That OC is prohibited in Denver County is of little consequence to me. A large city is the last place I'd open carry for a multitude of reasons. CO is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and El Paso County the most in CO. If these rights are threatened, I will fight it in any way necessary. Don't think CO gun owners are lazy as a group; we're merely happy to live here with the current laws. That being said, I've already posted my thoughts on this case--where it's a loser and where I hope he prevails. Nothing personal intended in any way, but if he posts on this forum he can expect replies, both pro and con.

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Speak for yourself, and not for me. I am not happy with the laws here and too wish them to be changed.

Click to expand...

I always speak for myself. What do you want changed? Outside of the Denver County, that is, which I agree with you on.

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I want denver county changed. I want the state to all be under the same law, since this should be a state matter, and not a city matter.

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lopoetve wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

lopoetve wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

I have a CCW which is legal in the entire state. I can carry in a bar and anyplace else, absent a metal detector in a government building. That OC is prohibited in Denver County is of little consequence to me. A large city is the last place I'd open carry for a multitude of reasons. CO is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and El Paso County the most in CO. If these rights are threatened, I will fight it in any way necessary. Don't think CO gun owners are lazy as a group; we're merely happy to live here with the current laws. That being said, I've already posted my thoughts on this case--where it's a loser and where I hope he prevails. Nothing personal intended in any way, but if he posts on this forum he can expect replies, both pro and con.

Click to expand...

Speak for yourself, and not for me. I am not happy with the laws here and too wish them to be changed.

Click to expand...

I always speak for myself. What do you want changed? Outside of the Denver County, that is, which I agree with you on.

Click to expand...

I want denver county changed. I want the state to all be under the same law, since this should be a state matter, and not a city matter.

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And that's different than what I said in what way?

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Diocoles wrote:

Both Denver and Breckenridge are anti gun.. Breckenridge is home of the elite. They have their body guards and security systems. They don't want the little people to carry.

Denver wants only cops to have guns. So that makes 2 groups there with guns, cops and badguys.

I can carry anywhere in the state concealed except of course for federal buildings with detectors. Even some of our college campuses now allow CCW on campus.

Denver is a lot like D.C., it ignores the reality of life for the common person.

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Breck can be anti all they want. It still doesn't change the fact that preemption is the law of the land. Besides, I have no desire to go to Breck, Estes Park is good for me!

Denver doesn't have just "cops and badguys". Just because OC is not legal there doesn't mean that there aren't quite a few folks that CC. Those with CCW's are usually smart enough to stay out of bad areas at bad times.

You're right as far as Denver not grasping reality of life tho. TRUE DAT!!!!

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Gunslinger wrote:

lopoetve wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

lopoetve wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

I have a CCW which is legal in the entire state. I can carry in a bar and anyplace else, absent a metal detector in a government building. That OC is prohibited in Denver County is of little consequence to me. A large city is the last place I'd open carry for a multitude of reasons. CO is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and El Paso County the most in CO. If these rights are threatened, I will fight it in any way necessary. Don't think CO gun owners are lazy as a group; we're merely happy to live here with the current laws. That being said, I've already posted my thoughts on this case--where it's a loser and where I hope he prevails. Nothing personal intended in any way, but if he posts on this forum he can expect replies, both pro and con.

Click to expand...

Speak for yourself, and not for me. I am not happy with the laws here and too wish them to be changed.

Click to expand...

I always speak for myself. What do you want changed? Outside of the Denver County, that is, which I agree with you on.

Click to expand...

I want denver county changed. I want the state to all be under the same law, since this should be a state matter, and not a city matter.

Click to expand...

And that's different than what I said in what way?

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You said OC in denver was of little consequence. It's of great consequence to me, and I want that changed. I'm not at all happy with how the laws are - there's a dividing line that shouldn't be there.