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Thread: Twist on restaurant carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member ThunderRanch's Avatar
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    I'll start by saying there was no LEO involvement in this and there were zero issues, but I'd like some opinions from my learned colleagues on this one.

    I attended a function at a place that is designated a restaurant (In this case, the Hanover Country Club dining facility) that hosted a "party" outside the building where a buffet luncheon and open barwere set up and the restaurant staff manned the food and beverage areas.

    Would this still be considered a "restaurant that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises?" Or do you physically have to be in the building? What about a restaurant that has an open patio?

    By the nature of the event, this would likely have been a place I would have chosen to CC. I realize OC would not have been a problem. Just curious!
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764.

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    I believe if the business has a license to sell booze... the interior and enclosed patio area is off limits to CCers.

    Being on the property itself outside or the parking lot would not count

    I believe the restaurants that sell booze all have enclosed patios where you must enter and exit through the building. Sure.. you could jump the fence... but it does establish the eating/interior type boundary.

    This is my opinion and not legal advice.

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    Regular Member ThunderRanch's Avatar
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    That was my basic understanding as well. Just wanted to get some other opinions!

    Thanks
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ThunderRanch wrote:
    buffet luncheon and open barwere set up
    If it is set-up for an event.. then it is not on a regular every day basis and that CC is allowed. This kind of ties into the whole Wegmans thing too (not to dig up that dead horse)... We just have to keep fighting to chang laws to allow us to carry how we want and where we want.


    Ed
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member ThunderRanch's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ThunderRanch wrote:
    buffet luncheon and open barwere set up
    If it is set-up for an event.. then it is not on a regular every day basis and that CC is allowed. This kind of ties into the whole Wegmans thing too (not to dig up that dead horse)... We just have to keep fighting to chang laws to allow us to carry how we want and where we want.


    Ed
    Definietly no argument on fighting to allow us to carry how/where we want!
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764.

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    ed wrote:
    ThunderRanch wrote:
    buffet luncheon and open barwere set up
    If it is set-up for an event.. then it is not on a regular every day basis and that CC is allowed. This kind of ties into the whole Wegmans thing too (not to dig up that dead horse)... We just have to keep fighting to chang laws to allow us to carry how we want and where we want.


    Ed
    Hey Ed...

    Is there anything you canpost on that? This is new to me and would be valuable.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    §18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.

    Any such corporation or association which has been declared exempt from federal and state income taxes as one which is not organized and operated for pecuniary gain or profit shall be deemed a nonprofit corporation or association.

    "Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.


    Enter the GRAY area.. use whatever shade you want...

    - If I get to the place and say I want to sit on that Patio.. then I am not IN the restaurant... and I am on the PATIO.. if they have to set it UP.. I take that to mean that SUBSTANTIAL full course meals are not REGULARLY served. IANAL YMMV. :-)

    I would Open Carry Anyway because it lets me tell more people how I feel and helps me educate people on thengun laws i do know for sure :-)
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    ed wrote:
    ThunderRanch wrote:
    buffet luncheon and open barwere set up
    If it is set-up for an event.. then it is not on a regular every day basis and that CC is allowed. This kind of ties into the whole Wegmans thing too (not to dig up that dead horse)... We just have to keep fighting to chang laws to allow us to carry how we want and where we want.


    Ed
    What do you mean, Ed? I carry openly in Wegmans all the time, not just because I'm an open-carry activist, but because they have a restaurant on the premises that serves alcohol and I don't know where the restaurant stops and the store begins, nor do I know their hours of operation (if different from store hours).

    Not to beat a dead horse, but did I miss a discussion about Wegmans somewhere?





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    Hey Ed...

    In reviewing the code and breaking it down for ease of use.... there is no gray area that excludes special functions. Maybe you can guide me a little.

    By code...you could not have a special function that would allow CC as the license for the establishment still comes into play and there is no exclusions that would allow a special closed event.

    What restaurant rents out their space and allows full use and notbe involved in some way? They are going to be present to be sure nothing bad happens. And if they are there... the ABC license isin play..IMO

    As far as a patio... can we find an establishment that exists that serves alcohol outside on the patio and is not fenced in? The few I have been to are all enclosed so it is obvious where you are standing.

    Having an open patio would obviously create a field of gray. As long as you were not a customer and just walking by... who would be stopping you at that very moment to discover you had a concealed weapon?



    §18.2-308 (J.3.):

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any

    • restaurant
    • or club

    as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia,

    nothing herein shall prohibit

    • any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club
    • or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.


    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.

    Any such corporation or association which has been declared exempt from federal and state income taxes as one which is not organized and operated for pecuniary gain or profit shall be deemed a nonprofit corporation or association.

    "Restaurant" means,

    • for a beer,
    • or wine and beer license
    • or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license,

    any establishment provided with

    • special space and accommodation,

    where, in consideration of

    • payment,

    meals or other foods prepared

    • on the premises
    • are regularly sold.



    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business

    • (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and
    • (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.



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    OC-Glock19 wrote:
    What do you mean, Ed? I carry openly in Wegmans all the time, not just because I'm an open-carry activist, but because they have a restaurant on the premises that serves alcohol and I don't know where the restaurant stops and the store begins, nor do I know their hours of operation (if different from store hours).

    Not to beat a dead horse, but did I miss a discussion about Wegmans somewhere?



    OC-Glock,

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/10494.html


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    If I'm reading this right, I think what ThunderRanch and ed are getting at is that an event like the special patio setup is a one time event, and not an "established place" that "regularly" serves meals and tasty adult beverages. Even if the area is contiguous to the restaurant, as in the Country Club example, if is is not regularly part of the serving area, then I don't think the prohibition on CC applies.

    I think it would be just like Harborfest or one of the Herndon/Reston/Fairfax festivals. The restaurant may set up and sell food/drink, but because it is not "established" and "regular", CC is okay. That is how I interpret the statute, but I'm not a judge, or even a lawyer. Denny Crane!

    --RedKnightt--

    Zombie Squad has it right: “We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything.”

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    "a place that is designated a restaurant (In this case, the Hanover Country Club dining facility) that hosted a "party" outside the building"

    Question.... Does the dining facility serve booze or is there another location in the club where you purchase it?

    If the entity that serves booze did not also come outside then you would have been fine outside.

    But if booze was being dispensed at the same event outside then you would be in trouble if you did CC.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    If I'm reading this right, I think what ThunderRanch and ed are getting at is that an event like the special patio setup is a one time event, and not an "established place" that "regularly" serves meals and tasty adult beverages. Even if the area is contiguous to the restaurant, as in the Country Club example, if is is not regularly part of the serving area, then I don't think the prohibition on CC applies.

    I think it would be just like Harborfest or one of the Herndon/Reston/Fairfax festivals. The restaurant may set up and sell food/drink, but because it is not "established" and "regular", CC is okay. That is how I interpret the statute, but I'm not a judge, or even a lawyer. Denny Crane!

    --RedKnightt--

    Zombie Squad has it right: “We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything.”
    + 1
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    If I'm reading this right, I think what ThunderRanch and ed are getting at is that an event like the special patio setup is a one time event, and not an "established place" that "regularly" serves meals and tasty adult beverages. Even if the area is contiguous to the restaurant, as in the Country Club example, if is is not regularly part of the serving area, then I don't think the prohibition on CC applies.

    I think it would be just like Harborfest or one of the Herndon/Reston/Fairfax festivals. The restaurant may set up and sell food/drink, but because it is not "established" and "regular", CC is okay. That is how I interpret the statute, but I'm not a judge, or even a lawyer. Denny Crane!

    --RedKnightt--

    Zombie Squad has it right: “We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything.”
    I think I disagree with interpretation. The restaurant is granted the license. It doesn't specify certain areas of the restaurant/club. If their same license covers open-air, outdoor, or special events, then the outdoors, etc. is no different from the inside.

    NB: I'm not a lawyer, I've never studied law, and I slept at home last night.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    RedKnightt wrote:
    If I'm reading this right, I think what ThunderRanch and ed are getting at is that an event like the special patio setup is a one time event, and not an "established place" that "regularly" serves meals and tasty adult beverages. Even if the area is contiguous to the restaurant, as in the Country Club example, if is is not regularly part of the serving area, then I don't think the prohibition on CC applies.

    I think it would be just like Harborfest or one of the Herndon/Reston/Fairfax festivals. The restaurant may set up and sell food/drink, but because it is not "established" and "regular", CC is okay. That is how I interpret the statute, but I'm not a judge, or even a lawyer. Denny Crane!

    --RedKnightt--

    Zombie Squad has it right: “We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything.”
    I think I disagree with interpretation. The restaurant is granted the license. It doesn't specify certain areas of the restaurant/club. If their same license covers open-air, outdoor, or special events, then the outdoors, etc. is no different from the inside.

    NB: I'm not a lawyer, I've never studied law, and I slept at home last night.
    I agree with Tess...

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    I think I disagree with interpretation. The restaurant is granted the license. It doesn't specify certain areas of the restaurant/club. If their same license covers open-air, outdoor, or special events, then the outdoors, etc. is no different from the inside.

    NB: I'm not a lawyer, I've never studied law, and I slept at home last night.
    Ok.. how bout this.. I go to Breaux Vinyards with a friend.. She drinks.. I don't. We are sitting outside on the lawn.. MUST I Open Carry?
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  17. #17
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    My opinion (worth every penny you paid for it)? For Ed's winery? Not a club or a restaurant. No problem.

    For the situation Tess described? It's a restaurant, regardless of the exact location on the ABC-permitted premises. If you CC, you're breaking the law.

    You're lucky I'm not a cop, Ed. :P

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    You're lucky I'm not a cop, Ed. :P
    why? I OC everywhere anyway <shrug>
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  19. #19
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    I was just riffing on your "MUST I open carry" question, Ed.

  20. #20
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    Hanover Country Club has ABC license.

    ABC license means OC not CC.



  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    useful_idiot wrote:
    ABC license means OC not CC.
    Not true.. Wegmans Dulles has an ABC License.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  22. #22
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    ed wrote:
    useful_idiot wrote:
    ABC license means OC not CC.
    Not true.. Wegmans Dulles has an ABC License.
    ok here is a question i have about the wegmans abc license.

    does this abc license provide for on premises consumption anywhere inside the grocery store or is it limited to the "restraunt proper"

    it might make grocery shopping a little more bearable if i can get my buzz going while strolling the isles.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    67GT390FB wrote:
    ed wrote:
    useful_idiot wrote:
    ABC license means OC not CC.
    Not true.. Wegmans Dulles has an ABC License.
    ok here is a question i have about the wegmans abc license.

    does this abc license provide for on premises consumption anywhere inside the grocery store or is it limited to the "restraunt proper"

    it might make grocery shopping a little more bearable if i can get my buzz going while strolling the isles.
    Wegmans Dulles does not Serve adult drinks.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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