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Thread: Open Carry (Knife) Incidient - Bonnie L. Hays Animal Shelter

  1. #1
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    For the last 3 days in a row (four including today) I was looking for a dog to adopt at the Bonnie L. Hays Animal Shelter (1901 SE 24th Ave Hillsboro, OR).



    I went those 3 days open carrying a Black Ka-bar in a synthetic sheath with no problems. I spoke with the people working there, asked questions about the dogs, asked questions about adopting. Filled out an application, I spent most of the time standing there waiting. Had several conversations with the manager on the days I was there (except today). One day there was a security gaurd, or animal control officer not sure, they had a star badge in a circle, gray shirt with red trim but was unarmed (maybe peppar spray), he saw it and gave me a "threat assessment" look and then continued on without saying a word to me. There were no signs saying weapon's were not permitted.

    Today, my fourth day there, one of the (fat ) women there came up and asked in an extremely concerned voice:
    "What's that hanging on your belt? :what:"
    *I look down thinking I might have rubbed up against something, and looked on left my side, looked on my other side, then looked back up to her with a confused look on my face not knowning to what she was referring*
    She then said, "That. " and pointed to my right side.
    *I turned my right hip toward her, and lifted the sheath higher off my leg and said with astonishment:
    "This?!"
    "Yeah"
    "Why?"
    Again in a wavy concerned voice she said:
    "Because thats a deadly weapon"
    I said "So? :shock:"
    "We don't allow deadly weapons here, you have to take it off and leave it in your car"
    *sigh*
    At this point when I realized she was looking at me like I was some kind of monster, I instantly got a sickening feeling in the core of my body, I have never been so blatantly discriminated against by another human being in my life. I proceeded to leave without arguement because I knew these people wouldn't be capable of comprehending what I said, and I wasn't in the mood for a police encounter. With my prior contact with the people working there they are highly unintelligent with a complete collectivist attitude with total lack of any common sense. That being said, I just left immediately.

    I got the business card of the Animal Services Manager yesterday for the purposes of complaining about how poorly I was treated in regards to customer service (I guess they didn't notice the knife those days?). Yesterday when I was waiting outside the shelter (thinking about if I wanted a dog there) a man in his late 50's said
    "Man that women is a real bitch huh?"
    I said, "Yeah, that's our government for us"
    and he knodded deeply in agreement.

    I guess I have one more thing to complain about.


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    I emailed the Animal Services Manager who they call the "Director" for a clarification on their weapons policy. (Gary Hendel)

    Here is the email:

    "I have gone to the Bonnie L Hays Animal Shelter everday for the last 4 days looking to adopt a dog. Everyday I was there, I was openly carrying a knife secured in a retention holster on my belt. I filled out an adoption paper, I spoke with the manager and with pretty much every employee there asking questions about the dogs all without any mention of the knife. Today I was asked to leave for openly carrying a knife on my belt in a holster. I was told that deadly weapons were not allowed and that I was not permitted to return unless I removed the weapon. I did not see any signs prohibiting weapons, nor have I found any rule prohibiting the open carry of weapons. There is no mention of prohibiting the open carry of knives in the Oregon Revised Statutes. I am unable to find the legal authority to barr me entry based on open carry. I ask that you please inform the employees that I am not breaking the law and that they cannot ask me to leave simply for carrying or to send me a letter verifying that I am correct that I can present them to avoid any further confrontation. They are currently holding a dog for me to adopt but it must be spayed before I can take it home, and was told I must return before tuesday to take it home, however, I will be unable to return to adopt the dog if we do not clear this incident up.

    Thank you"

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    Hopefully you get a positive response.

    I'm afraid I would have wanted to tell the woman that she'd have to keep her body outside the premises as well, seeing as deadly weapons are prohibited.

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    A FAT woman, eh? She's probably unaware that in her condition a SPOON may be a deadly weapon. :what:

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    GWbiker wrote:
    A FAT woman, eh? She's probably unaware that in her condition a SPOON may be a deadly weapon. :what:
    :celebrate

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    Well, IANAL, but in WA carrying a sheath knife's verbotten unless you're hunting or your job requires it. Since the animal shelter seems to be a public building under Chapter 166 of the OR statutes, and that Ka-bar sure as heck ain't an "ordinary pocket knife", my read is that unless you've got a CHL it's probably out of bounds down there as well. Stick to a good folder like a Spyderco Delica and save yourself the hassle.

    Here're the relevant sections:

    [/b]
    166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise: ...
    (4) “Public building” means a hospital, a capitol building, a public or private school, as defined in ORS 339.315, a college or university, a city hall or the residence of any state official elected by the state at large, and the grounds adjacent to each such building. The term also includes that portion of any other building occupied by an agency of the state or a municipal corporation, as defined in ORS 297.405, other than a court facility.
    (5) “Weapon” means: (a) A firearm; (b) Any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slingshot, metal knuckles or any similar instrument or a knife other than an ordinary pocket knife, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property; (c) Mace, tear gas, pepper mace or any similar deleterious agent as defined in ORS 163.211; (d) An electrical stun gun or any similar instrument; (e) A tear gas weapon as defined in ORS 163.211; (f) A club, bat, baton, billy club, bludgeon, knobkerrie, nunchaku, nightstick, truncheon or any similar instrument, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property; or (g) A dangerous or deadly weapon as those terms are defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §1; 1977 c.769 §2; 1979 c.398 §1; 1989 c.982 §4; 1993 c.741 §2; 1999 c.577 §2; 1999 c.782 §6; 2001 c.201 §1]

    166.370 Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility; exceptions; discharging firearm at school. (1) Any person who intentionally possesses a loaded or unloaded firearm or any other instrument used as a dangerous weapon, while in or on a public building, shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony. (2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person who intentionally possesses: (A) A firearm in a court facility is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. A person who intentionally possesses a firearm in a court facility shall surrender the firearm to a law enforcement officer. (B) A weapon, other than a firearm, in a court facility may be required to surrender the weapon to a law enforcement officer or to immediately remove it from the court facility. A person who fails to comply with this subparagraph is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. (b) The presiding judge of a judicial district may enter an order permitting the possession of specified weapons in a court facility. (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment. (b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer. (c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty. (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun. (e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building. (f) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm: (A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and (B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle. (4) The exceptions listed in subsection (3)(b) to (f) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section. (5)(a) Any person who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony. (b) Paragraph (a) of this subsection does not apply to the discharge of a firearm: (A) As part of a program approved by a school in the school by an individual who is participating in the program; or (B) By a law enforcement officer acting in the officer’s official capacity. (6) Any weapon carried in violation of this section is subject to the forfeiture provisions of ORS 166.279. (7) Notwithstanding the fact that a person’s conduct in a single criminal episode constitutes a violation of both subsections (1) and (5) of this section, the district attorney may charge the person with only one of the offenses. (8) As used in this section, “dangerous weapon” means a dangerous weapon as that term is defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §§2,4; 1977 c.207 §2; 1979 c.398 §2; 1989 c.839 §22; 1989 c.982 §5; 1991 c.67 §39; 1993 c.625 §1; 1999 c.782 §7; 1999 c.1040 §4; 2001 c.666 §§24,36; 2003 c.614 §6]

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    CaptainAttila wrote:
    Well, IANAL, but in WA carrying a sheath knife's verbotten unless you're hunting or your job requires it. Since the animal shelter seems to be a public building under Chapter 166 of the OR statutes, and that Ka-bar sure as heck ain't an "ordinary pocket knife", my read is that unless you've got a CHL it's probably out of bounds down there as well. Stick to a good folder like a Spyderco Delica and save yourself the hassle.
    I think you're right about the knife in a public building, but it isn't illegal in OR to carry a sheathed knife as long as it isn't concealed. The only thing OR has on knives is that some knives can not be concealed, other wise we can own any of them, for example I own the Benchmade Infidel. It's an out the front automatic knife and I can legally own it. The only statute that OR has about these is:

    166.240 Carrying of concealed weapons. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.[/b]

    (2) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section applies to any peace officer as defined in ORS 133.005, whose duty it is to serve process or make arrests. Justice courts have concurrent jurisdiction to try any person charged with violating any of the provisions of subsection (1) of this section.

    Also, though he may have TECHNICALLY been in the wrong bringing it in with him, no one had said anything about it, and there weren't any signs posted. Even security didn't worry about it. I would take that as permission per se, but that's just my opinion on the matter.

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    DenWin wrote:
    Also, though he may have TECHNICALLY been in the wrong bringing it in with him, no one had said anything about it, and there weren't any signs posted. Even security didn't worry about it. I would take that as permission per se, but that's just my opinion on the matter.
    Actually, I don't disagree. I just think a good folder's a better option from a legal standpoint. I'd also be willing to bet it's easier to deploy a Delica than draw that Ka-Bar, particularly if there isn't a tie-down on the tip end of the sheath.

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    I believe you're correct about it being a "public building". It wasn't a state building or city(municipal) building but a county building. Digging deeper in ORS 297.405 it appears county buildings are under "municipal corporation".

    The reason I think the employee told me to leave was because someone there noticed and complained about me being there carrying the knife. Maybe I had "permission" the first 3 days but when someone complained they decided to enforce it...

    Posted signs would be nice.

    P.S. I have a Gerber Gator II, too.



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    NaT805 wrote:
    P.S. I have a Gerber Gator II, too.
    Get rid of the Gerber and get your self a Benchmade Don't worry, it's still made in Oregon (best knives in the world come from Oregon)

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    I looked up the defintion of "arms" and it was generic for "weapons". Are there any supreme court cases giving a definition of arms?

    "Section 27. Right to bear arms; military subordinate to civil power. The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence [sic] of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power[.]"

    They cannot restrict my right to bear arms anywhere within the state of Oregon, including public buildings. We're supposed to tell our government what they can and can't do, they're not supposed to tell us how to live our lives, how/when this got twisted around I don't know. Why the constitution did not stop them from enacting that statute I do not know, but I do know that it does not apply to me. I am only 21 years old and the more I get exposed to the world I realize that the free republic America once was is now gone...

    There is only one who has greater authority than me, there is only one who can control my life, there is only one who I submit myself to, there is only one God.


    With God by our side Liberty shall prevail.

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    I agree I'm 29 and really getting into the lost freedoms we had. I don't think it is so much age as a sign of the times. I have two little brothers 24 and 21 they are just as into whats going on as I am. People are finally waking up to whats happening. All we can do is make sure were heard and seen.

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    I have an idea! We could totally play a game, it's called NAME YOU FAVORITE CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATION! I'll start so you get the game
    1. The Patriot Act (this is a good one it has lots of constitional voilations)
    now you try....

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    Ooh! Ooh! I got... about a hundred million.

    War on drugs.

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    Yeah I know its pretty cool huh?

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    So you went to an animal shelter with a kabar knife...

    ...Why not just carry around a fillet knife...?
    Seriously, if you're looking to get yourself bothered and have the police called on you - this s the kind of situation you put yourself in.

    It may be legal, but why a knife (especially at an animal shelter...)? Never bring a knife to a gunfight, unless you've got a gun too...

    I'm sorry, but I feel this portrays the wrong image of us, wearing such a weapon in this particular situation.

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    CharlesAFerg wrote:
    I'm sorry, but I feel this portrays the wrong image of us, wearing such a weapon in this particular situation.
    You may feel that, but other people feel that openly wearing a firearm portrays the wrong image of our society. It is perfectly legal to openly carry a fixed blade knife, it is illegal to conceal it. To me that's like saying conform to us or you're not one of us. I DON'T believe that is what you are saying, but that's what you suggest in my opinion.

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    I did not say I am against doing it, I'm just saying it was a less than tasteful choice in the particular situation, and does not portray an image I would represent. I mean, a huge knife in an animal shelter?

    Heck yes he should be able to carry it, I wouldn't do it though.

    It's not an, 'I'm right, you're wrong" thing... Technically you're correct, and I do agree with you - I'm referring to the image.

    Please, I'm not even remotely supporting that comparison to people who feel people who carry weapons at all are bad for society, so don't compare it because you know it's not true. I am definitely not even remotely close to that ideology so please don't slap that label on my commentary.

    Besides, I don't feel a knife is a viable self-defense mechanism unless it's either concealed or as a last resort after a handgun. OCing considered. That's just my opinion.

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    Sorry, I really didn't mean to touch a nerve. I know you're not against the open carrying of weapons, and I didn't mean to label you that way. I was just making a comparison to how others view us who legally open carry. As far as a knife as a defensive tool, you're absolutely right. That would be my last resort as well. When it comes to pistols, the way I've been taught is the pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind in the first place

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    Its legal to carry any fixed blade knife as long as it isn't concealed? Is it under the same rules as handguns (i.e. localities can restrict it), and does having a CHL change anything, or does it have to be openly carried even if you have a CHL?

    PS What about sword-canes?

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    Buy me a handgun and I'll carry that instead . Until then, I think a big knife serves as a pretty good deterent.

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    Heartless_Conservative wrote:
    Its legal to carry any fixed blade knife as long as it isn't concealed? Is it under the same rules as handguns (i.e. localities can restrict it), and does having a CHL change anything, or does it have to be openly carried even if you have a CHL?

    PS What about sword-canes?
    I don't know about city ordinances, because the ORS only has exemptions for CHL holders involving firearms. There is no minimum length as far as I have seen. A sword cane is considered concealed, which is what it was designed for, to make some one think it's a cane, not a sword. Now lets see here . . . *looks up ORS on-line again to check statutes* . . . Ah, here it is:

    166.240 Carrying of concealed weapons. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.[/b]

    (2) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section applies to any peace officer as defined in ORS 133.005, whose duty it is to serve process or make arrests. Justice courts have concurrent jurisdiction to try any person charged with violating any of the provisions of subsection (1) of this section.

    This is the only statute I can find that involves any edged weapons. As far as Oregon is concerned, you can carry Benchmade's 3300 Infidel (check it out, http://www.benchmade.com/products/pr...spx?model=3300, it's awsome )AS LONG AS it is not concealed, ie, belt holster, clipped in pocket with no shirt hanging over it,outer front pocket on a shirt or vest, etc. I wore a SOG SEAL Pup for a long time on my belt, and though I got weird looks from Beaverton PD and WCSD they never had any reason to take it, and I never even got asked about it.

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    I know that you can open carry sheath knives, but how about something like this?
    http://www.ztknives.com/productdetai...1&brand=zt
    http://www.mattdtactical.com/ZT-0150..._p_19-129.html

    Thanks!

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    DenWin wrote:
    Benchmade's 3300 Infidel (check it out, http://www.benchmade.com/products/pr...spx?model=3300, it's awsome )
    I didn't know Benchmade made an OTF knife. I so want one. Too bad automatic knives are illegal to carry in CA.

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    Automatic knives under 2 inches are legal to carry in Kalifornia.

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