When to tumble brass

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:X:shock::?:dude::arrow::idea::exclaim::question::lol::uhoh::celebrate:what::quirky:monkeyI've been reloading forover 2 decades and have always been unclear as to when you should tumble the brass. I know this is a rather silly dilemma and I should just do what seems to be the best wayand be done with it at that point. But I'm one of those who is on the edge of being considered a perfectionist, I may very well be one. I think my manner of writting blogging is probably some indication of my mind set or basic character. I'm not violent by any means, but as well, I'm not one who can be easily pacified. See what I mean, I getvery involved in my topic to the extent that I sometimes lose my direction or topicof dicussion momentarily. Anyway, my question is, should you tumble the brass before you resize it or after or both? And here's the reason I'm having trouble with which way to go with this. If I tumbleafter resizingI've subjected my die to the powder and other residues resulting from exposure to the primerand powder ignition,as well, enviromental properties such as humidity, dust, copper, and lead blow back which can scratch and damage the dies.But by tumbling before resizing I'm going to have brassthat has the markings the resize die leaves also causing a less than smooth surface on the casing that could, and has, inducedproblems with feedingand/or extraction. The only thing I can do is tumble my brass twice which is what I've been doing for many years. I usually tumble, resize, prime, powder charge, seat the bullet, and them tumble again. By following this process the bullet is nice and clean looking too. What do you guys that reload think about this process? Does it seem extreme and some what unnecessary or reasonable, or am I just very thourough?

gamestalker over and out

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Hey I like my ammo to look snazzy, too. Why not tumble twice, as long as the wait doesn't annoy you?

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Sounds good to me. I know lots of people (including the ammo producer and reloader, Georgia Arms) tumble after loading to make it look nicer and shiny. I've found in the hollow point cavity on some cartridges a few bits of tumbling medium...took me awhile to figure out what it was that was in the cavity

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Do you think there is any real danger of ignition by tumbling the loaded ammo? I use a high quality vibratory tumbler, very low impact I would think? And I always take a tooth pick to the HP rounds to make sure there isn't any media stuck in them.

gamestalker

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gamestalker wrote:

Do you think there is any real danger of ignition by tumbling the loaded ammo? I use a high quality vibratory tumbler, very low impact I would think? And I always take a tooth pick to the HP rounds to make sure there isn't any media stuck in them.

gamestalker

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A tumbler will probably not come close to the shock the cartridges receive from recoil while in the gun's magazine or cylinder.

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I have read some of the replies to this question and felt compeled to respond. I am a long range shooter, (750 to 1500 yards). and have won a couple of 1000 yrd matches so I understand and practice good case prep. If you are tumbling your cases just to make them look good you have skipped a very important step. When I am ready to reload my cases I first give them a good looking over for damage or defects. I them put them through my vibrator and inspect them once again. This does two things. First it may bring out any imperfection that I didn't catch on the first inspection. Second it removes any debris that were on the cases that could cause damage to not only my dies but the case itself. I then resize the cases and clean the primer pockets. I wash the cases and run them back through the vibrator to remove all traces of lube and or debris. Vibrating or tumbling loaded ammo is a very dangerous practice. While it is highly unlikely that a round will detonated, you are effecting the powder inside the case. the powder granulates are a certain shape and size for a reason and that is the help control the burning rate of the powder. The impact transfered to the powder during tumbling/vibrating is breaking the powder down and increasing the pressure that will be generated when the cartradge is fired.

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I think I can be honest and forth coming with you because you seem to be a little more informed and experienced with respect to the reloading and shooting sports. First of all, I would never tumble any loadedcartridge, ever, and was mearly testing the thoughts of some of the less experienced, or uninformed reloaders/ shooters out there with the hope of exposing their dangerous ways and make them think about what they may be doing. When I began reloading many years ago I thought about tumbling the loaded rounds, but quicly came to the realization regarding the powder changes that would certainy occure. It is however something a good number of reloaders do and should not be done, ever! I taught hands on reloading classes for competitive shooters,hunter safety, and several specialized shooting classes. And without question my most enjoyed of shooting sports is shooting groups at 200 yds., 500 yds., and 1000 yds. with my high powered rifles. I turn my brass, clean every primer pocket, trim each case after each use, ream & chamfer each one, neck size only, and custom seat to my bore,most of this is to achieveotimum accuracy, some is to extend the life of my brass such is the case with my 7mm rem. mag... And as you stated, to tumble any loaded cartridge would certainly change the characteristics of the powder thus changing its burn rate, and since slow powders are usually loaded with a maximum case capacity which is safe with slow powders, one could expect dangerous results if the burn rate is changed by even a small margin. For example, a .270 loaded with H1000 is a compressed load and to powder, or break down those granules would create a very serious increase in pressures. Unfortunatly my experience has been that most reloaders are only performing a couple of the necessary steps of reloading and understand very little of what they are doing or how it will effect the gun andcartridge produced. I once had a guy come into my store and buy a 22-250, and reloading equiptment for it. The very next day he walked in with the bolt, what was left of it, a big bruise around his eye and cuts and scratches on his arms and face, and a distroyed firearm. He wanted to know if I could order him a new bolt and have our smith replace the barrel. He had absolutly no concept of what had just happened. This rifle was totally distroyed, not one single part of it was salvagable, not even the stock as it was fractured in several places. The brand new Leupold was ruined too. Outside of nearly costing him his life, he cost him self around $1500. to shoot his rifle once! Then he tried to blame us of course for supposibly selling defective dies. What had happened is he didn't set up the dies properely and the cases were not gettingresized at all. The only thing he accomplished was depriming the cases and when he seated the bullets they were falling down into the case, he told me that. An example of some of these guys having no concept of what or why it must be done right. Well you and I know what happened after that, the bullet obviously fell into the case causing the round to transform into a bomb rather than a cartridge. A good number of the realoaders I've briefly known are performing this process in ways that make me stand as far away from them as possible while they are shooting their reloads. They have many times wondered why I am so extreme with the process and also wonder why I am capable of shooting as well as I do. They don't believe me when I explain to them why its necessary to at least follow the basics or standardized reloading proces, not everyone needs to turn the brass, weight each charge, seat the bullet to the bore, neck size only, and a few other advanced steps I've mentioned. But one must at least follow the standard steps of reloading to ensure a safe round has been loaded. I also shoot rifles that have been button lapped bore, actions lapped and bedded, 3 stage triggers, of which I really prefere theJewel, Douglas barrels, you know what I'm talking about. If I couold figure out how to work this computer better I would show you some of my targets I've punched at long range. One hole, 5 shot groups are the only acceptable results for me. i recently took a cheap Remington model 710 in 7 mm rem. mag. and did a bunch of custom work to it and then after shooting it at the local range and producing one whole groups at 200 yds. sold it for $1000 to a guy needing a hunting rifle. He was tickled pink to get such a rifle that would put them where he wanted them to go every time. I taught him how to shoot and since then he's always at the range showing up all the guys who go there to justpull the trigger basically. I enjoy teaching average shooters how to really put it where they want it to go. Most would be lucky to hit a deer at100 yds. before I teach them. And after, they are so confident they will sucessfully take their deer at 600 or 700 yds. with 300 ydsor better being no challenge to them. It a lot of fun to shoot long range. I just love doing it even though I've never competed and mostly because I can't afford to join the organization or travel to where the shoots are. I really pride myself in handgun as well. I think its a super good feeling to be able to punch good groups at 100 yds. with a .357 mag..Over the yearsI've been reloading for a few law enforcement friends and customizing their rifles and handguns for them. They apprecieate it and I always feel its nice to know they will have a more reliable weapon while out there protecting the public.



Well, I'll stop rambling for now buddy.

gamestalker

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Try some paragraphs, my eyes get lost just looking at all that! :shock: :lol:

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Wow, I am so glad to hear that you are not the amateur you made out to be. You scared the heck out of me. We are a rare breed that know and practice precision reloading. My 1000+yard rifle is a custom built 6.5-06 ackley. It is built on a turkisk mauser action with a Pac Nor barrel, timiny trigger and a Richards Microfit bench rest stock. I have taken shots at 1500 yrds but condition have to be just right. I have another custom built 375/300 I had built to take elk at 600. I also enjoy taking my sleeper to the range and exasperating those would be hunters by printing 5 shot groups of less than 1/2 inch at 100 yrds. It's a beat up WWII Yugo mauser in 8mm. the only thing I have done to the rifle was to have the bolt bent, mounted a cheep Tasco scope and put a timiny in it, oh and precision loaded ammo for it. My favorate pistol is a Taurus Raging Bull in 454 Casul. If you get a moment you might want to check out my entry 454 Casul vs 460 S&W.

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Yes tumbling can affect SOME types of powder. Other types are unaffected.

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Wow, your a bit more into it than I am. AlthoughI know the breed of equiptment your talking about, its too rich for my blood and isn't really necessary for the paper punching I do. I have a 7 mm rem. mag. that a frind built for me back in 1984 on a 98 action. But even that isn't quite as nice as your ackley 6.5-06 set up. I used a Douglas barrel and a 3 stage jewel some of my favorite because they get the job done and aren't as high dollar to build. I put a custom bench rest stock, pilliar bedded, with a Leupold midddle of the top range cost optic, but some of the work would be considered old school now. The one thing I never scimp on though is precision reloads and the work I personally put into my actions.

And regarding the 454 casull, I have definite respect for that weapon and favor it over the 460 because it is simply superior. I would consider the 44 mag to be a better handgun ballistically than the 460 hands down.

gamestalker

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With all due respect, I sincerely beg to differ with you on that. I know your shotgun and pistol powders are less likely to deofrm in a tumbler, but if tumbled long enough and the load not being compressed, will still open it up for a characteristic change that can have an effect on its burn rate, causing increased pressure. It is still a powder that is very dependant on its physical characteristics to regulate its burn rate. If you doubt that take some and put it in a blender for about 15 seconds and then load it as you usually would and you'll be unpleasantly surprised!

gamestalker

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For sure. I'm constantly being critisized for writing with proper grammer and rules. The young ones of the internet world say I'm not using the crude manner of bloggin. Like u , iz, cuz, and so on. But I'll try harder to keep it a little more in line with the right way to script.

Thanks for the reminder!

gamestalker

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I sold the first 454 in the state of New Mexico when Freedom was the only and first manufacturer of that weapon. I also had the opportunity to shoot that first one. But in terms of quality and workmanship I much prefer the Taurus. I have several of their products, 24/7 in .040 cal, Melenium in .40 cal., and a .357 and all of them are excellent weapons that have never given me any trouble, and I shoot a lot. I think my next one will be the Raging Bull, I love big bore handguns. I also think the 454 is probably the most effective big bore handgun made at this time. I have a friend that bought S&W .500 about 6 months ago. It was nice but it didn't get great chrony results in my opinion. The 454 is getting better than 2000 fps with factory loads and better than that reloaded.I shot it first because he was actually affraid of it and wanted to observe how bad the recoil was. He is about 6ft. 2" and I'm only a 5' 5" when I'm wearing shoes and I only weigh about 120 lbs. soaking wet. But when it comes to guns I may as well be 6' 6" and 280 lbs. because I have absolutly no fear or aprehension. I shoot the TC Contenders in just about every high caliber cartidge they're made in. The first time I had the opportunity to shoot one of those was in the .338 mag.and I fell in love with it. I honestly think individuals who fear the weapon are going to experience a greater amount of discomfort from the recoil. They tense up and are expecting some horrible bone breaking effect and usually wind up getting what they expect mostly because of their apprehension and fear. I've been addicted to big bores since I was about 12 yrs. old and hunted rabbits with a big old single shot 12 ga. goose gun with 3 inch #4 buckmagnums my Brother had bought and decided never to use. Then when I started reloading I always loaded the biggest badest load I could find in the book. I still load the highest velocity loads in the book, but I work the loads up to the best performing range which usually winds up at the top anyway when speaking in terms of long range stuff.

Hey that 6.5 -06, what kind of velocity are you getting from that with which powder? And what projectile do you use. Do you compete and if so is that one of your competition rifles? Have you ever won a comp shoot, and if so at what distance do you compete in? I've always been very interested in that sport but really never had the opportunity to do it until now. I've been a business manager since 1979 and deeply involved often working 7 days a week. But now I'm retired and thinking about getting involved in this sport since all I have is time and a serious interest in the shooting sports. Is it expensive to get started in competition outside of the custom rifles needed. I think my rifles are adequate to get started with. They aren't really up to date, but they are well put together and customized enough to get the groups. Especially in the 200 yd. class which is what I enjoy the most. I shoot the 7 mm rem. mag. at 200 yds. all the time and get tight single hole 5 shotgroups consistently. I've done a lot of 500 yd. and 1000 yd. shooting and do OK but probably not well enough to consider competing at those distances. I mean if hitting the kill zone conststentlyon a deer is considered good at those distances than I'm pretty good.

Hey fill me in a little bit if you don;t mind. I just might start competing at an entry level and see how it goes.

gamestalker

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I get 2940fps with my 6.5-06 using 51.5gr of IMR4831. When I first started out I used a 142gr JLK with a bullet coefficient of .702 but JLK went out of business and I now use Berger's 140 gr VLD. Most of my competition is informal but I formally competed and took first place with the 6.5-06 the first year I had her. The distance was 1050 yards. The cost of the build on the 6.5-06 was right at $1300 my competition were using rifles costing from $2000 to over $4000. As my gunsmith put it, it is not how much money you send, it is how you spend it.

Your 7mm mag is a good hunting rifle but you don't see them in competiton. If you don't want to spend the big bucks to do a custom build I strongly suggest a Savage in 300 Win. Mag. (not the short mag)and have it glass bedded. If that interests you let me know and I will get the loading data from my shooting buddy. I do not wish to insult your intellegents by spouting off with the tricks of the trade so I will leave well enough alone.

Thanks for your opinion on the 454 over the 460. Not many shooter are able to handle the recoil of the big hand guns.

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I would never feel insulted by an experienced shooter or reloaders opinion. I'm much older than that, so much so that I won't state my age online.

But regarding the competitive shooting your refering to, what exactly are you talking about? Siluetas, or paper punching? Because I'm well aware of the lack of popularity of belted magnums on the line for siluetas, but for paper punching some of the most popular cartridges used to be the .270, 7 mm rem. mag. Now for the long range which I think is what your talking about here 750 yds. and up, the flatter shooting the better I thought for punching paper? AmI right? And with the .284 bullet its undoubtably the the closest to being ballistically perfect as any projectile can be. I'm looking at a tables right now and themost coefficient bullet is the .284 with an approximate coefficientcy of .500 using a 145 grain boat tail Speer. Now the ballistic tip boat tail is a little better than that, about .517, and a little lighter too. And according to my tables the 6.5 or .263 is producing a ballistic coefficientcy of very close to that with an approximate .496 using the 140 grain bullet. I'm sure the round your loading is of the highest coefficientcy obtainable for that and doing a little better than too. But a .702 seems to be above an obtainable number according to science based physics at the time of these tables being printed, 1980. The highest coefficientnumber in the tables I'm using, Speer, is .560 and that is a .284 projectile 160 grain BT. That particular round is also chronographing at 3415 average with a 71 grain powder charge of RL22. I also use the 120 grain BT with the same powder charge for a velocity of 3694 and that round is drilling nails at 200 yds.. One hole 5 shot groups, tight groups. I use the 160 grain projectile for anything over 500 yds. to retain velocity.

And as you stated to me, please don't be insulted I as well respect your obvious professional and experienced opinions and hope to learn from your input. Your certainly not an idiot or pushing manure. Also my information is old andout dated. But the projectiles used are still in production.

I've probably got about $1500. in real dollars into each of my rifles with a lot more into the work I've done on them, lapping, bedding (one is glass bedded) the other is pillar bedded, good optics, 3 stage triggers onall of them,and some other stuff, so I think I'm OK in that respect. I also have a new 700 that is shooting well, butI've customized it some. One of my rifles is a different concept action with the bolt locking up (tripple lugs) into the barrel, not the reciever. This seems to really make a difference. It was a lot more difficult to lap though because of the triple lugs. But once I got it right though, it is without a doubt my favorite and most accurate action. Believe it or not it is a Remington 710 action. It won't last me too long though because of the barrel and action being the same animal, when one wears out the other is trash too. But in terms of barrel quality it is an amazingly heavy barrel for factory out of the custom remington shop. I've probably put close to 1500 rounds through it and it stillhas good tolerances at the action. Thebore is starting to show some wear even though its not yet effecting the groups. But I do a longer than average cool down with it to help slow the process some.

gamestalker

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Ok it is time for a little education. I compete in paper punching at 1000 or more yards. There are shorter distance competition of 300 and 600 yards but my rifle was designed for 1000+yards. Long range paper punching and silhouette shooting are two differant sports and the bullet requirements are as differant as night and day. Paper punching only requires that the bullet arrive at the target at or above 1100fps. Below that speed the bullet becomes unstable and it begins to wobble and or tumble. This is where the high bc bullets come in to play. There higher the bc the less drag is created and the longer the bullet will maintain its speed. It is also less effected by cross winds, up or down drafts and other atmospheric conditions. Believe me there is a boat load of atmospheric changes from the end of your barrel and your target 1000 yards away. If you bullet bc is not in the mid to high 6's your are not going to be competitive. In silhouette shooting your bullet must deliver the maximum possible bullet impact. Most silhouette shooters use heavy round nosed solids and high bullet bc is the last thing they think about or want. They are looking for high sectional density for maxium impact and bullet follow through. Check out Midwayusa.com in their bullet section. The bullet manufacturers quite often will advertise their bc and density.

You are on the right track with your three lug Remington. Remington actions are very popular amoung custom rifle builders and the three lug locks up nice and tight.

I attached this photo to give you an idea of the differance between paper punching ammo and silouette ammo. top is my 6.5-06 below is a 510 Gibbs. If you have not heard of a 510 Gibbs not to worry as there are only 2 in existance. The Gibbs produces over 11,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

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I guess I wasn't very clear. I know what the difference is and also that the siluetas requires high energy impact so as to knock the steel target down or they don't make a score. What I was trying to relate was the coefficiency factor. As I said, my tables are old and probably out dated and I can't find a bullet that is delivering anythin above .560 or around that number. In paper punching coefficiency isof course everything and thus velocity and accuracy are the products of coefficiency. Thats why I was saying that 20 years ago the 7 mm rem. mag, .270 were amoung the most popular of weapons for paper punching due to thier down range velocity, accuracy, and coefficiency being the factor making it possible. I would think the new ultr mags to be good choices with the right stocks, actions, optics, and some excellent custom work.If I'm geting 3600 or 3700 fps at the muzzle and my down range numbers are as good as they get, and my projectile is stable down range,I've got a good paper punching weapon. Even though what you do is far more difficult than what I prefer to do, not many individuals can do what either of us do. Shooting one hole groups at 200 yds. is something only very few can accomplish, most shooters are lucky to sight in their rifles at 100 yds. much less accurately group. But to shoot the tight groups you shoot at 1000 yds. is even more specialized and requires something only a hand full of shooters pocess. But to be frank with you I would shoot more long range stuff like you do if I could afford the bigger optics ecential for that range. I can get by just fine at 200 yds. with a 3.5x10 50mm optic at 200 yds. But at 1000 it isn't even practable to hope for good groups. I spend about $750 on my Leupolds for the above and to shoot what you shoot I'd need something in the $1500 to $2000 range just to be competitive and not look like a fool.And there is no chance I would step down to something below Leupold.

I have a friend that invested thousands of dollars in the top of the line Simmons, were talking optics in the $1000 class. His home got flooded while he was on vacation. These scopes are supposed to be water proof and every one of them were full of water and Simmons wouldn't replace them. First of all Leupold won't ever leak or fog, and second if anything happens to a Leupold no matter what the circumstances, they fix or replace it free of any charge, no shipping even! I ran accidentlyover an expensive pair of Leupoldbinoculars that I had bought more than 15 years ago and they were ruined. I sent them to Leupold and 2 weeks later I recieved a new pair of the exact same optics, just better than the old design, no charge. Dropped my rifle down a verysteep slopeseveral years ago and bent the Leupold optic, they replaced it no charge, no questions asked! It doesn't get any better than that. The world champion 200 yd. shooter use factoryLeupolds, right out of the box!

gamestalker

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Yes, I apparently misunderstood what you were saying. You are correct, the 7mm Mag was and is very popular. They offered high volicities and are flat shooting. One holers consistantly at 200 yards deffinately qualify as very in fact exceptionally accurate. Leupold scopes are nice and very spendy. When I first had my 6.5-06 I purchased a $350 Weaver but I did not like the rectical, (purchased on the internet), and I didn't have time to sent it to weaver to have the rectical replaced. I had a BSA Platium 8-32 X 44 mil dotso I put it on the rifle forthe shoot. The optics were clear enough but a little dark at longer ranges. It did so well in the shoot that I left it on. The BSA cost me $110. Remember what I said earlier, "It's not how much you spend, it's how you spend it".

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That's an absolute to some extent. But in terms of optics, some discreption is advised when considering clarity, brightness or light transmission, eye relief, and of course durability to with stand recoil. I've owned a lot of optics prior to my move to Leupold back in 1987 or so, at which time I got a concussion and stitches from a poor quality scope. Having litterally seen and felt the difference, I have never been able to go back to anything else. But if your getting the job done with BSA then I strongly suggest you stay with that.

gamestalker