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Thread: Grand Haven Tribune Editorial

  1. #1
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    http://www.grandhaventribune.com/pai...6549320470.bsp

    City had no choice on gun issue
    Thu, Aug 28, 2008

    It's understandable as to why the city of Grand Haven backed down and dismissed charges against a man accused of carrying a weapon during this summer's Coast Guard Festival.
    City officials discovered that Grand Haven's ordinance that prohibits possessing and carrying firearms in public is unenforceable.
    A 21-year-old Freeport man was accused of carrying a gun during the Coast Guard Festival.
    The charges will be dismissed without prejudice and arrangements are being made for the man to get his gun back, according to Grand Haven Department of Public Safety Capt. Rich Yonker.
    Grand Haven officials were made aware that the state statute regarding openly carrying firearms pre-empts local ordinances.
    A group that monitors conflicts between local and the state law alerted Grand Haven officials of the possible violation.
    Yonker told the Tribune that the decision to drop the charges came after research of case law by the city's attorney.
    That brings up the question as to how the local ordinance got passed in the first place, or stayed on the books, if there were questions about its legality. Will the ordinance now be repealed?
    As far as the man being within his rights to carry a weapon downtown during the Coast Guard Festival, it raises questions as to why anyone would need to carry a weapon during a family orientated festival.
    The law states that a man or woman can't carry a concealed weapon in a school zone, be under the influence or be drinking while carrying a firearm.
    We see why the city had no recourse but to drop the charges. Still, it is worrisome that a person can walk on our downtown streets with a gun.
    Those who advocate carrying guns can complain all they want, but that doesn't defuse the potential for a tragedy.


    I'll also post this in the News articles thread.


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    Typical Anti-gun B.S. Added to the last lines. I see that the "moonbats" run that rag as well

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I want to know why they haven't returned his f'in gun yet.

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    Grand Haven is an elitest, snobby place. In the 3 times I've been there on the Michigander (the cross state bike tour my user name is named after),they've given us a hard time each time. They make real sure to remind everyone they will be ticketed if they ride 2 abreast, even if there are no cars around. Also, they make sure we are told not to havetoo many people in one area because it would be "unsightly".They don't allow signs to be posted to show where to go. I've gotten lost twice because of this. Once me and some friends ended up having to ride about 10 extra miles because of the lack of signs. As far as how the city is run, it's the second least friendlytown I've been to on the 'gander. I think that has a lot to do with why the whole mess happened, including the delay in returning the gun.
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    Rattrapper wrote:
    Typical Anti-gun B.S. Added to the last lines. I see that the "moonbats" run that rag as well
    Yep, it's time for an OC march downtown since it's so "worrisome". Just think of the "potential tragedy". You know.....the horror of 40-50 OC'ers getting coffee.

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    To: lpainter@grandhaventribune.com
    Subject: City's choice on gun issue

    What 'city officials' discovered was that someone had failed in their diligence due the public. Considering the weight of law and opinion the editors of The Grand Haven Tribune may also be failing the public.

    Will these failures be set straight?

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.

    Doug Huffman
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    Greggy_D wrote:
    Yep, it's time for an OC march downtown since it's so "worrisome". Just think of the "potential tragedy". You know.....the horror of 40-50 OC'ers getting coffee.
    I can understand their viewpoint. The reason is that my CZ52 fell on the ground then shot me. Negligent discharges are possible if you aren't obeying the 4 rules while using a proper holster and keeping the gun in a safe condition, as in to what extent it's loaded.

    I made a stupid mistake, and it could happen to a lot of people. I'm not saying anyone here in particular would make the same mistake I did, but as more and more people get into open carrying, especially considering that in many states you don't need a permit, the class for which would have taught permitless OCers more about safe carry, the likelihood of more negligent discharges resulting in injuries or death becomes larger.

    I don't mean to fuel the anti's, but this forum could use a dedicated sticky that all new comers to carrying a sidearm are encouraged to read. Short of such a thread covering holster types, what type of guns are safe to carry condition one, and some other safety info, that potential tragedy thing will be something this site can't offer so much of a rebuttle on. If this sounds too extreme, consider how fast this site is growing, and consider how bad one innocent bystander death would make us look.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    . . .it could happen to a lot of people. . . .the likelihood of more negligent discharges resulting in injuries or death becomes larger.

    . . .this forum could use a dedicated sticky . . . consider how bad one innocent bystander death would make us look.
    I disagree that the type of accidental discharge that happened to you--accidental discharge due to a handling mistake by the gun carrier himself--happens to "a lot of people." It happens, for sure, but just nowhere near in numbers which I think require a campaign for gun safety here on this website.

    I appreciate your sense that gun safety is important. It most certainly is. But this is Open Carry Dot Org, not Gun Safety Dot Org. It is presumed here, or should be presumed here,that all of your ducks are in a row BEFORE you come here: weapon is legally possessed by you, you are trained in it's use, you know how to safely handle it, etc. Maybe a statement of that expectation would suffice; however, I'm not calling for that, personally.

    You could start a non-sticky thread on your subject, too. If it's a regularly occuring issue amongst us, it will stay at or near the top. In sort of a Darwinian fashion, if the issue really isn't much of an issue, the thread will sink to the bottom and become extinct.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I didn't say it happens a lot, I said it could.

    Ideally people who come here will all be gun experts. But it just isn't so. Many people who just turned 18 turn to OC because it's their only option. Additionally, many people who never considered carrying are OCing because they found out they can. When you see numerous people asking what kind of holster they should get, I think that's proof positive not everyone here is a gun expert.


    This site encourages a specific behavior. It should discuss how to do it safely.

    As you pointed out though, it's not considered much of an issue, because most here are confident in how they carry, so it would have to be stickied if it was to be visible.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    I didn't say it happens a lot, I said it could.
    Yes,my response wasn't worded precisely, and I'm sorry to have made it seem you said something you didn't. To be more precise in addressing what you imply, I disagree that the type of accidental discharge that you are talking of--accidental discharge due to a handling mistake by the gun carrier himself--could start happening to "a lot of people" as more people OC. In my opinion, it could happen to a few, at maximum, butnot "a lot" of people. There's a certain rate at which these types of accidents happen right now to owners handling their weapons, andI doubt that rate would increase dramaticallyin the presence of changing one variable (the numbers ownersOC'ing). Of course, this is just my opinion. The facts that emerge as more people OC will prove one of us wrong: either it actually happens to "a lot" or "few".



    Ideally people who come here will all be gun experts. But it just isn't so. Many people who just turned 18 turn to OC because it's their only option. Additionally, many people who never considered carrying are OCing because they found out they can. When you see numerous people asking what kind of holster they should get, I think that's proof positive not everyone here is a gun expert.
    There's a difference between being an expert on guns and being safe in handling guns. The issue we're speaking of is impacted by an owner'sattentiveness to safe handling, not an owner's knowledge otherwise of guns or accessories. Evidence of an owner's lack of expertise about holsters or ageis evidence of them maybe not being a "gun expert", but is not evidence that they are not asafe handler of guns. I think such connections between age or knowledge of accessories to a person's safe handling practices is highly speculative at best. Respectfully, I really think this part of your argument is not convincing.


    This site encourages a specific behavior. It should discuss how to do it safely.
    Definitely, if a pattern seems to beemerging that the rate of accidental discharge among OC'ers, while OC'ing, is significantly above the usual rate generally among gun owners, then there is a case for that. Does there seem to be such a pattern emerging? The answer to that question, I submit, is the answer to whether or not we need a "sticky" on the special subject of "safe handling while OC'ing". I humbly acknowledge the answer may be yes, in contradiction to my current opinion. Presently, however, I'm not aware of such a pattern existing or emerging.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    lol! Thats funny.

    As far as the man being within his rights to carry a weapon downtown during the Coast Guard Festival, it raises questions as to why anyone would need to carry a weapon during a family orientated festival.


    Has anyone else been to this "family orientated festival" besides me?I was outside for the walk to and from my car (about 10 mins)and saw at least two arrests made for possession of an illegal substance! Besidessome fights between drunks. (I'll give them the benefit of thedoubt). Who's to say they might not like me and try something? ......"um Mr. police officer could you walk with me and be my self-defense for the night?" right.

    I think its about as family oriented when it gets dark, as it is at a rock concert. Thereare some messed up people that attend every year i go.

    With a pregnant wife and the right-to-carry..... heck yeah I'll carry.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    http://www.grandhaventribune.com/pai...6549320470.bsp

    City had no choice on gun issue
    Thu, Aug 28, 2008

    "it raises questions as to why anyone would need to carry a weapon during a family orientated festival. Still, it is worrisome that a person can walk on our downtown streets with a gun.
    Those who advocate carrying guns can complain all they want, but that doesn't defuse the potential for a tragedy".
    Easy to see where this news papers political ties rest.
    Im proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    p8ntgames wrote:
    lol! Thats funny.

    As far as the man being within his rights to carry a weapon downtown during the Coast Guard Festival, it raises questions as to why anyone would need to carry a weapon during a family orientated festival.


    Has anyone else been to this "family orientated festival" besides me?I was outside for the walk to and from my car (about 10 mins)and saw at least two arrests made for possession of an illegal substance! Besidessome fights between drunks. (I'll give them the benefit of thedoubt). Who's to say they might not like me and try something? ......"um Mr. police officer could you walk with me and be my self-defense for the night?" right.

    I think its about as family oriented when it gets dark, as it is at a rock concert. Thereare some messed up people that attend every year i go.

    With a pregnant wife and the right-to-carry..... heck yeah I'll carry.
    I was there for the fireworks on the last day. I'd noticed that the crowds seemed a little less than years previous.

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    As far as the man being within his rights to carry a weapon downtown during the Coast Guard Festival, it raises questions as to why anyone would need to carry a weapon during a family orientated festival. The law states that a man or woman can't carry a concealed weapon in a school zone, be under the influence or be drinking while carrying a firearm.
    We see why the city had no recourse but to drop the charges. Still, it is worrisome that a person can walk on our downtown streets with a gun.
    Those who advocate carrying guns can complain all they want, but that doesn't defuse the potential for a tragedy.

    I bewilders me that this person is allowed to write for a newspaper.

    " it raises the question? by whom only by you" Why anyone would need I don't know his need may be he just wants to. Maybe he has been threatened by bad guy.
    The right to carry is not based on need. If it was who determines that need me, you, a reporter. God I hope not. In Michigan it was based on need a few years ago. The need was determined in this county by money to the right persons and special friendships. In the sheriff departments people lost jobs over this.

    Still, it is worrisome that a person can walk on our downtown streets with a gun.
    While it is worrisome to that reporter is not to millions of other Michigan residents.
    So laws and needs should be based on your worries? Well what about my worries?

    Get over it or get professional help.

    Those who advocate carrying guns can complain all they want, but that doesn't defuse the potential for a tragedy.

    I had to rewrite the above sentence it just didn't make any sense the way it was written

    Those who advocate not carrying guns can complain all they want, but that doesn't defuse the potential for a life saving benefit.



    The above letter sent to editor of the news paper.
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

    ************************************************** ********************

    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

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    A man named Boatman once wrote " Carrying a gun is a social resposibility.... A citizen who shirks his duty to to contribute to the security of his community is little better than the criminal who threatens it.'

    Send the writer of the article that bit of news. Apparently HE is little better than the criminals. HE would rather someone else take responsibility for his and his family's safety.

    Why can't fliers be printed and distributed that explain that it's everyones responsibility to watch after their fellow man, and if you see one or two people carrying openly, feel safer, as it is less likely that you will be a victim of some criminal.

    According to the FBI, states with "Shall issue" right -to-carry laws have a 20% lower homicide rate, a 39% lower robbery and a 22% lower aggravated assault rate than those states that do not allow their citizens to legally carry guns.

    The sidearm (pistol/revolver) is only carried because we don't know for sure what we will encounter. If we knew ahead of time we would encounter a bad situation, a criminal(s) we would avoid the area/situation, else if we had no choicewe would bring a rifle or shotgun, not a handgun. Be prepared, a Boy Scout motto.

    Grand Haven citizens should be thankful that a man had the guts to take the responsibility upon himself to protect himself, his family and his fellow citizens if called upon.







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    Almost.

    http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/83.cfm

    The Constitutional Right and Social Obligation to Carry a Gun
    There have been many societies in which not carrying a weapon was a serious and severely punishable crime. This was true in Greece, Rome, Europe, Britain and, though seldom enforced, is still true in certain places in America today. This is as it should be. A citizen who shirks his duty to contribute to the security of his community is little better than the criminal who threatens it, and is better off living in a society that places lesser demands on his capacity to accept responsibility.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Maybe Grand Haven finally read this:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...6_238184_7.pdf
    Im proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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