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Can States Succeed From US?

unreconstructed1

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Gunslinger wrote:
I thought this question was settled 143 years ago. As I recall, we won the argument.

Gunslinger, Yankee born and bred.



"A question settled by violence, or in disregard of law, must remain unsettled forever."
--- President Jefferson Davis, CSA

Unreconstructed1, Unreconstructed, Unapologetic, Unrepentant Southerner
 

SouthernBoy

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impulse418 wrote:
"The south will rise again!"

By far the greatest laugh, I have ever got.
We already have in one area. The South is the wealthiest region in the United States. Were the fifteen Southern states a separate country, they would rank third in economic wealth, behind the United States as a whole, and Japan.
 

unreconstructed1

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SouthernBoy wrote:
impulse418 wrote:
"The south will rise again!"

By far the greatest laugh, I have ever got.
We already have in one area. The South is the wealthiest region in the United States. Were the fifteen Southern states a separate country, they would rank third in economic wealth, behind the United States as a whole, and Japan.

I saw the same statistics elsewhere .

In the book "The Southern Nation: the new rise of the Old South", it lists that as of 1990, that the South (whether the South as defined by the census beaureau, Congressional quarterly, or as the historical 11 sate Confedaracy) would have ranked second, behind the U.S. in terms of the GDP. I haven't seen any newer date than that. Could you give me a source on that?

Another point is whether that takes into account the loss of revenue resulting from a loss of Southern assets. I wonder if we'd still rank behind the U.S., or above it.
 

Huck

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another misinterpetation is that the battle flag is the "stars and bars". That nickname was given to a different confederate flag (the First national flag), due to it's similarity to the Federal flag:


The battle flag was generally referred to as "The Southern Cross". Plus, the Confederate battle flag used by the Army is square, not rectangular nor does it have white bordering on the blue st. andrews cross. The rectangular flag, which has the white bordering on the cross,is the "Naval Jack" used by the CS Navy.
 

Takezo

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"The south will rise again!"

By far the greatest laugh, I have ever got.
No matter if you think it's funny or not--it's time to start thinking the unthinkable.

I know what's running though the guys mind who started this thread, it's running through most everyone else's also.

Everything that our forefather's listed as grievences against the King of England in the Declaration Of Independance, applies tous ten-fold now.

If Geroge Washington were alive this day, he would be pictured in a computer generated camouflage uniform holding an AK47, crossing the Deleware with a special forces unit inan inflatable boat.

This county is on the very of falling apart financially--a complete and total financial collapse. There is an eerie silence in the political rhetoric about this on both sides. The weaknesses that unzipped the Soviet Union now threaten to uravel the United States. This country is in worse financial shape than the USSR comparitively. We are over 75 trillion dollars in debt, which cannot be payed back, which is completely impossible to pay back.

Now what will a govenment do to its citizens during such a crisis? What will they do to maintain control and continunity--or should they be allowed to do so?

What is very possible now... a collapse of the United States as a union of states. A reorganization? Most likely a downsizing as did the Soviet Union. What shape would it take? Don't laugh, thisis very, very likely.

Why do you think has been a push for weapons control in the past 15 years? Strategic planners (the smart guys) have forseen this for years comming. The stated reason for actions are not always the real reasons for action. If you think Sarah Brady is the brain behind handgun control, you've got a hole in your head.

ST
 

Flyer22

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Takezo wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong.... but Texas can legally succeed from the United States. The Republic Of Texas (an soverign independent country at the time) entered into a treaty to join the United States as a state.

Every year the Texas state legislature must (or is supposed) to vote on renewing this treaty or covenant with the United States.

In the late seventies and early 80's the Hunt Brothers cornered the market in silver in an attempt to establish an independant bank from the Federal Reserve System. However their efforts were ruthlessly crushed, and the plan of succession (which I believe many people were involved) never borre fruit.

In theory each state in the Union is a soverign state (an independent country) held together with a common money system, a common defense, common means of communications (roads, ports, etc.) and a judicial system--this is why you have state legislative bodies still.

A state is not just an area within the United States--it is an independent country. The constituion that was ratified made sure that there were certain basic rights that had to be obeyed in all states entering into this agreement.

However, the Federal Government has evolved into a system where it belives that anything and everything it does is legal and constitutional. 90% of all laws passed by the congress and senate have absolutely no constitutional basis whatsoever. And the majority of the laws that are passed are rarely challenged, or challenged on a constitutional basis.

Yes a state may succeed from the Union of the states--the only mistake when it was done the last time, was that the hot-heads in south opened fire on Fort Sumpter and started a war when no such war existed. It gave Lincoln the moral high ground to eventually crush the succesionist (which almost didn't happen).

Can you imagine it... the Confederate flag being raised over Mt. Surabachi? Or the Confederate Flag planted on the moon? How about General Jimmy Dolittle launching planes off the deck off the CSS Hornet?

Makes you wonder huh?

You are not alone... this thought that has been running trough your brain is also coursing though the minds of many, many others lately.

If Hussein O is elected, and an avalanche of socialist legislation is rammed down the throats of American--this thought will turn into action.

ST

As Snopes.com says, "Several legends maintain that Texas is entitled to exercise certain privileges not granted to other states due to its status as a quasi-independent republic prior to its admission to the United States." Go to the link below and see the last paragraph for more information.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp

Secession is not specifically prohibited by the Constitution, but--while Article IV, Section 3 establishes procedure for ADMITTING states, nowhere does the Constitution set forth any procedure for states to WITHDRAW. Moreover, the Civil War settled the question forever. Once a state joins the Union, that decision is irrevocable for as long as the Union endures.

Now--
While the states have certain powers of sovereignty, they are most emphatically NOT independent countries.

US Constitution
Article I
Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States (emphasis added)

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters
of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but
gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder,
ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any
Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties
on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing
its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by
any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the
United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Control
of the Congress.


No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep
Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact
with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually
invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
 

unreconstructed1

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Huck wrote:
The battle flag was generally referred to as "The Southern Cross". Plus, the Confederate battle flag used by the Army is square, not rectangular nor does it have white bordering on the blue st. andrews cross. The rectangular flag, which has the white bordering on the cross,is the "Naval Jack" used by the CS Navy.

actually, while the ANV (Army of Northern Virginia) flag was square, as was the norm, some units did indeed use a rectangular naval jack type flag. The Army of Tennessee is a good example. there were also various plays on the color scheme, and the orientation ofthe Cross ( a st. George's lateral cross instead of the St. Andrews diagonal cross)

as for the statement Flyer made:
Secession is not specifically prohibited by the Constitution, but--while Article IV, Section 3 establishes procedure for ADMITTING states, nowhere does the Constitution set forth any procedure for states to WITHDRAW. Moreover, the Civil War settled the question forever. Once a state joins the Union, that decision is irrevocable for as long as the Union endures.


that still doesn't prove anything. Yes, the Confederate forces were forced to surrender, but that doesn't negate the principles for which they fought.

As for Secession not being specifically prohibited, BUT...

simply put, there is not BUT. as far as Constitution is concerned, Federal authority STOPS at the constitution. If it isn't expressly delegated to the FED, or expressly prohibited from teh States, then the FED has no constitutional background in the matter, period. end of story.

This is why we have the overgrown Federal beauracracy that so many complain about now. So many people are absolutely ignorant of what the constitution says, that they allow the FED to trample all over the constitution.

in truth, probably at least 70 percent of the federal agencies currently draining the treasury coffers are both unconstitutional,and completely unnecessary, but out of concerns of "safety", "national security" and other terms used to persuade the sheep, the FED gets away with whatever they want.

The only thing that the War of Northern aggression proved is that if the FED had no problem killing innocent civillians for excercising their God God given rights in 1865. I personally wonder how much of a problem they would have now. If athief breaks into your house and kills you after you attempt to defend yourself, does that make him right? should he be allowed to keep your house because he had greater might? well that is exactly the scenario that you are supporting when you imply that just because the FED invaded the South that they were right.
 

Takezo

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Now--
While the states have certain powers of sovereignty, they are most emphatically NOT independent countries.


They were meant to be independent countries, and they are independent "states" (meaning countries), what do you think the word state means?!! An area? A prefecture?! A jurisdiction??!!

And the states in agreement use a common means of defense, common money, common interstate means of commerce, a frame work in which to respect fundemental rights--but they are not, nor are they just "federal areas" or "prefectures" within a federal scope.

Unreconstructed is completely correct (and thanks for the info on the flags, very interesting), the Federal Government has completely overstepped its authority in every respect--the most occuring within the last 100 years.

And no this argument was not settled during the war of the states in the 1860's.

It is an issue that will be revisited in the next few years, when the economic crisis unfold and there is unimaginable chaos.



PS: to Reconstruced... despite being from Boston, my heart lays with the south and the west.

ST





 

Sig229

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unreconstructed1 wrote:


that still doesn't prove anything. Yes, the Confederate forces were forced to surrender, but that doesn't negate the principles for which they fought.

As for Secession not being specifically prohibited, BUT...

simply put, there is not BUT. as far as Constitution is concerned, Federal authority STOPS at the constitution. If it isn't expressly delegated to the FED, or expressly prohibited from teh States, then the FED has no constitutional background in the matter, period. end of story.

This is why we have the overgrown Federal beauracracy that so many complain about now. So many people are absolutely ignorant of what the constitution says, that they allow the FED to trample all over the constitution.

in truth, probably at least 70 percent of the federal agencies currently draining the treasury coffers are both unconstitutional,and completely unnecessary, but out of concerns of "safety", "national security" and other terms used to persuade the sheep, the FED gets away with whatever they want.

The only thing that the War of Northern aggression proved is that if the FED had no problem killing innocent civillians for excercising their God God given rights in 1865. I personally wonder how much of a problem they would have now. If athief breaks into your house and kills you after you attempt to defend yourself, does that make him right? should he be allowed to keep your house because he had greater might? well that is exactly the scenario that you are supporting when you imply that just because the FED invaded the South that they were right.

Thats a good point.
I grew up in Baltimore Maryland, and to those who dont know. Maryland was actually a Southern State that was held hostage by Union forces.

Theres a park in Baltimore called "Federal Hill"
Many people think its where the Federal troops stood on guard to "protect the people of Baltimore" during the war, but actually all of the cannons and artillery were POINTED AT the city!

Unfortunately, I think today if a state wanted to disassociate itself with the Fed, there would be martial law declared and that state would be filled with Marines, and Army infantry and armored divisions.

Which makes you ask yourself a question that has been asked by many patriots before us.
If we lived in a state that decided to become self governing, how far would you take the fight?
 

unreconstructed1

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Sig229 wrote:
Thats a good point.
I grew up in Baltimore Maryland, and to those who dont know. Maryland was actually a Southern State that was held hostage by Union forces.

Theres a park in Baltimore called "Federal Hill"
Many people think its where the Federal troops stood on guard to "protect the people of Baltimore" during the war, but actually all of the cannons and artillery were POINTED AT the city!

Unfortunately, I think today if a state wanted to disassociate itself with the Fed, there would be martial law declared and that state would be filled with Marines, and Army infantry and armored divisions.

Which makes you ask yourself a question that has been asked by many patriots before us.
If we lived in a state that decided to become self governing, how far would you take the fight?

a large portion of the Maryland Legslature was in favor of secession, and early in the war they had scheduled a vote regarding the matter. Because of this, they were declared to be political prisoners (although today, I think the appropriate term would be "enemy combatant" and placed at point lookout, and a few other internment camps.

One has to notice the strange parrallels involving the situation then , as related to now. Many of the things that Lincoln is so highly praised about, are the same things that Bush is so highly condemned about now. They see the unconstitutional acts of Lincoln (such as the suspension of habeas corpus) and declare that they were done to "protect the nation". and today people worship him as if he were a federal god. today Bush commits the SAME acts (suspension of habeus corpus) and he is criticized. personally I despise anyone who would trample upon the constitution.

As Lee and Jackson were fond of saying, they loved the Union, but they loved the constitution more. they would rather live without the union and with the constitution than the other way around.


Which makes you ask yourself a question that has been asked by many patriots before us.
If we lived in a state that decided to become self governing, how far would you take the fight
to the gates of hell.
 

Huck

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"Secession is not specifically prohibited by the Constitution, but--while Article IV, Section 3 establishes procedure for ADMITTING states, nowhere does the Constitution set forth any procedure for states to WITHDRAW. Moreover, the Civil War settled the question forever. Once a state joins the Union, that decision is irrevocable for as long as the Union endures."

No, the secession question was not settled forever in 1865. That just affirmed something that's been going on since the dawn of mankind; that the strong can enforce their will on the weak though the bluebellies had a hard time accomplishing it.

Not only did a young nation die in 1865, the right of the states to govern themselves with no interference from the Federal Government died as well. That's what the War of Northern Agression was all about. Ever since then the Federal Government's been riding roughshod over the states.
 

Flintlock

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Just for the sake of accuracy, I wanted to mention that the amendment you listed below is the tenth and not the ninth...



unreconstructed1 wrote:
the ninth amendment guarantees:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

show me in the constitution where secession is prohibited by the constitution.

in 1861, 11 Southern states ( 13 if you count Kentucky and Missouri, who did in fact secede but their secessions weren't "officially" recognized) exercised this basic human right of self determination, the exact same right excersiced by the founding fathers 85 years previously, and were invaded, subjugated and subjected to a grueling regime of "Reconstruction" for their efforts.

yes, secession is legal, but try to excersice that right, and you'll find out just how free you really are.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."


[align=right]~Declaration of Independence[/align]

[align=left]Even the tyrant who sought to subjugate the Southern people recognized the legitimacy of their actions:[/align]

[align=left]Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. [/align]

[align=right]~ Abraham Lincoln
[/align]
that is all I am going to say on the subject, unless provoked.
 

unreconstructed1

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DenWin wrote:
Here's one for every one wondering about secession :)

http://www.nationofpacifica.com/

Enjoy :cool:

I support the peaceful secession of any people who wish it. given the fact that there is no substance in that website, I will assume that is is a spoof.

If you are truly interested in a modern American secession movement, give the League of the South a try:

http://dixienet.org/New%20Site/intro.shtml

the middlebury institute ( a secessionist thinktank oranization):

http://middleburyinstitute.org/

the second Vermont Republic:

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

there are several more organizations out there, these are just the first few that came to mind.
 

unreconstructed1

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Flintlock wrote:
Just for the sake of accuracy, I wanted to mention that the amendment you listed below is the tenth and not the ninth...
you are quite right, sorry for any confusion that I may have caused.
 

Task Force 16

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For any state to secede from the Union through legal means seems highly unlikely, given that the US Congress most likely would never ratify such a move. To push the issue beyond legalities would result in armed conflict. It would be most likely a slaughter of the armed rebel citizens by the US Military.

Our greatest weapon against a growing oppressive government is still the ballot box. Not just in Fed elections, but right on down through to local City/County Governments. Get active in educating your neighbors and fellow citizens as to the ramifications of voting for one candidate/policies over another.
 

Sonora Rebel

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If all them Yankee sol'jers could'a knowed how it turned out... They would't'a showed up to begin with.
 

unreconstructed1

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Task Force 16 wrote:
For any state to secede from the Union through legal means seems highly unlikely, given that the US Congress most likely would never ratify such a move. To push the issue beyond legalities would result in armed conflict. It would be most likely a slaughter of the armed rebel citizens by the US Military.

and can you show me where in the constitution does it give Congress the ability to block such a move?

yes, the federal military would respond, but now, just as in 1861, it wouldn't make them right.

understand, I am not in any way advocating open armed resistance, but I am just pointing outthe obvious. LEGALLY, the FED has no right, nor any true authority in stopping a state from seceding.
 
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