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Thread: HCP traffic stop question

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    If stopped for a traffic violation (or any other reason that is a non-felony), assuming the cop runs my license and it comes back that I have a carry permit, if the officer asks me if I am armed or have weapons in the vehicle can I cite the 2nd and 4th Amendments i.e. I reply "I am sorry Officer but my attorney has advised me to not answer any questions except those relating to the initial reason for you stopping me". Or is there an obligation under TN law to reveal if I am strapped?

    Thanks

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    The law requires you present your HCP upon the request of an officer. It does not say you have to notify them if you are armed or not.

    But I'm not sure I would play it that way.
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    I've thought more along the lines of the 5th Amendment myself...no self-incrimination. Entirely untested and IANAL.

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    Fallguy wrote:
    The law requires you present your HCP upon the request of an officer. It does not say you have to notify them if you are armed or not.

    But I'm not sure I would play it that way.
    At this point, I would inform the officer yes or no, then answer follow up questions--please note--IANAL.
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    crotalus01 wrote:
    If stopped for a traffic violation (or any other reason that is a non-felony), assuming the cop runs my license and it comes back that I have a carry permit, if the officer asks me if I am armed or have weapons in the vehicle can I cite the 2nd and 4th Amendments i.e. I reply "I am sorry Officer but my attorney has advised me to not answer any questions except those relating to the initial reason for you stopping me". Or is there an obligation under TN law to reveal if I am strapped?

    Thanks
    I think it depends on what the law is in your state. if you are required to inform the officer you are armed, you should do so. If not, it is your choice.

    I would not be playing word games with cops out on the street.

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    Okay so this may sound ridiculous but most gun laws are ridiculous so: traffic stop, you are unarmed. Cop runs your license and it shows you have a HCP. He asks for your HCP, but as you are unarmed you do not have it with you. Am I correct in assuming that TN law states you only have to have your HCP when you are armed? Keep in mind AFAIK the law just says you must present your HCP on request of a LEO.

    Yeah stupid question but then again I think its a stupid law that at 18 you cant buy a shotgun with a pistol grip but you can buy a shotgun and a seperate pistol grip from tha same store/FFL in the same purchase and legally install it when you get home (just for example). I dont like to take chances with gun laws, there are too many nonsensical ones out there...

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    crotalus01 wrote:
    Okay so this may sound ridiculous but most gun laws are ridiculous so: traffic stop, you are unarmed. Cop runs your license and it shows you have a HCP. He asks for your HCP, but as you are unarmed you do not have it with you. Am I correct in assuming that TN law states you only have to have your HCP when you are armed? Keep in mind AFAIK the law just says you must present your HCP on request of a LEO.

    Yeah stupid question but then again I think its a stupid law that at 18 you cant buy a shotgun with a pistol grip but you can buy a shotgun and a seperate pistol grip from tha same store/FFL in the same purchase and legally install it when you get home (just for example). I dont like to take chances with gun laws, there are too many nonsensical ones out there...
    The way I understand it, you only have to have your Tn HG permit on your person if you are carrying ahandgun on your person.

    Why would you not be in the habit of carrying your HGP in your wallet at all times like you would your DL?

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    I am not, it was a theoretical question. Again, I dont like to take chances with gun laws as there are too many of them on the books that make no sense.

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    crotalus01 wrote:
    Again, I dont like to take chances with gun laws as there are too many of them on the books that make no sense.
    Isn't that the truth in Tennessee!
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    You MUST have your HCP with you if you are armed, but there is no requirment to carry it when you are not, just as there is no requirment to have your DL if you are not driving.

    But unlike your DL you can have more than one copy of you HCP, I know some that have orderded duplicates so they can leave one their car or range bag, just incase.
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    Thanks Fallguy, I didnt know that. That sounds like an excelent idea, having a duplicate to leave in the car at all times...

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    Fallguy wrote:
    But unlike your DL you can have more than one copy of you HCP, I know some that have orderded duplicates so they can leave one their car or range bag, just incase.
    I did not know that...thanks for posting!
    If the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.--Samuel Adams as Candidus, Boston Gazette 20 Jan. 1772

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    Under TN law:

    If a policeman asks if you are armed you must truthfully answer him.

    If a cop asks to see your HCP you must show it, if you are legally armed.

    If a cop demands to disarm you, you sadly must legally comply (there are qualifiers, but the bar is rather low, however I would feel insulted, and publicly wonder if you would have a slander suit).

    If you feel your life is in imminent danger from a LEO, you have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself (and for obvious reasons, your life had better have been in danger).

    Keep in mind, say as little as possible.

    "Are you armed?"

    "Yes officer, I am legally carrying a firearm." Note, not volunteering to show him, not volunteering much. The only reason I would not simply say yes is you want the cop to hear the 'legally' part. Some cops could conceivably be jerks and play the "I will decide that!" game, but I think the risks are lower.

    Say as little as possible, they are not your friends. Never volunteer information. Never offer options. Refuse any searches, and if he does them anyway, refuse consent before during and after. Whether or not you have anything to worry about, you never consent. Our rights are violated enough as is. Do not consent to any further ones!

    I saw a video over on THR a while back, it was excellent speech by a constitutional lawyer on why you should never speak to cops. Sadly, I did not save it. It was roughly 30 minutes long, and is a must see.
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    SomeKid wrote:
    Under TN law:

    If a policeman asks if you are armed you must truthfully answer him.

    If a cop asks to see your HCP you must show it, if you are legally armed.

    If a cop demands to disarm you, you sadly must legally comply (there are qualifiers, but the bar is rather low, however I would feel insulted, and publicly wonder if you would have a slander suit).

    If you feel your life is in imminent danger from a LEO, you have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself (and for obvious reasons, your life had better have been in danger).

    Keep in mind, say as little as possible.

    "Are you armed?"

    "Yes officer, I am legally carrying a firearm." Note, not volunteering to show him, not volunteering much. The only reason I would not simply say yes is you want the cop to hear the 'legally' part. Some cops could conceivably be jerks and play the "I will decide that!" game, but I think the risks are lower.

    Say as little as possible, they are not your friends. Never volunteer information. Never offer options. Refuse any searches, and if he does them anyway, refuse consent before during and after. Whether or not you have anything to worry about, you never consent. Our rights are violated enough as is. Do not consent to any further ones!

    I saw a video over on THR a while back, it was excellent speech by a constitutional lawyer on why you should never speak to cops. Sadly, I did not save it. It was roughly 30 minutes long, and is a must see.
    I agree with all except your first statement. Nothing I have seen in the T.C.A. says you must tell (whether asked or voluntairly) an officer you are armed. Now if he is conducting an "investigation" I guess you could be charged with hindering that or something.

    But....I do agree it is better to truthfully answer the question regardless or whether you legally have to or not. Just as you said don't volunteer and extra information and don't consent to anything.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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    My understanding is that lying to a cop is always a crime, period. Which is why I advise not saying anything more than needed, or notifying a cop you are carrying. Make them ask.
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    SomeKid wrote:
    My understanding is that lying to a cop is always a crime, period. Which is why I advise not saying anything more than needed, or notifying a cop you are carrying. Make them ask.
    Why can they lie to you and it's o-k? But if you lie to them it's a crime. Double standard? If I was on a jury that someone was charged with lying to a cop. How could I convict them?

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    Why is it o-k for a cop to lie but if I lie to them it's a crime. Double standard?

    Oops looks like I double posted. Sorry.

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    It is a double standard, and it is crap, but it is the way it is. Get it changed if you can, but good luck. Personally, I would not convict anyone of lying to a cop. Period. If that is all I am on a jury for, I am letting them walk.
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    That is why it is better to not answer at all, than to lie though. At least as the law is now.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    SomeKid wrote:
    Under TN law:

    If you feel your life is in imminent danger from a LEO, you have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself (and for obvious reasons, your life had better have been in danger).
    Hey SomeKID (AKA idiot ) A few guys in Waco tried that and they all are dead, in prison or on parole.

    Your commentis the kind of statement that has officers asking the founders of this site why we are so anti-LEO. Additionally it is irresponsible to post such a thing when some idiot may take your horrible advice as competent legal advice, when it is not.

    Some of you guys love to play lawyer on here but suggesting lethal force against police is reckless and incredibly ignorant.

    You wonder why police want to disarm citizens at traffic stops ?Keep up the loony post and we will havepolice treating every permit holder or armed citizen as a felony stop.

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    no carry permit ? wrote:
    SomeKid wrote:
    Under TN law:

    If you feel your life is in imminent danger from a LEO, you have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself (and for obvious reasons, your life had better have been in danger).
    Hey SomeKID (AKA idiot ) A few guys in Waco tried that and they all are dead, in prison or on parole.

    Your commentis the kind of statement that has officers asking the founders of this site why we are so anti-LEO. Additionally it is irresponsible to post such a thing when some idiot may take your horrible advice as competent legal advice, when it is not.

    Some of you guys love to play lawyer on here but suggesting lethal force against police is reckless and incredibly ignorant.

    You wonder why police want to disarm citizens at traffic stops ?Keep up the loony post and we will havepolice treating every permit holder or armed citizen as a felony stop.
    While I admit the circumstances in which you would be legally justified and it also ruled that way in court are rare....it is legal

    T.C.A. 39-11-611 Self-defense.

    (e) The threat or use of force against another is not justified:

    (3) To resist a halt at a roadblock, arrest, search, or stop and frisk that the person using force knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, unless:

    (A) The law enforcement officer uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest, search, stop and frisk, or halt; and

    (B) The person using force reasonably believes that the force is immediately necessary to protect against the law enforcement officer's use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Hey genius, read my post and pay attention. I pretty clearly note that you had better have been in serious danger and am not suggesting shooting cops for fun. A cop who disarms a lawfully armed citizen does so out of arrogance. Period. Officer safety is a nice crutch, but a false front nonetheless.

    Also, the Waco reference was absurd. Waco was not a traffic stop, nor was it in Tennessee, nor was it even involving state police. Waco was a Federal (under a liberal anti-gun Democrat) debacle.

    no carry permit ? wrote:
    SomeKid wrote:
    Under TN law:

    If you feel your life is in imminent danger from a LEO, you have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself (and for obvious reasons, your life had better have been in danger).
    Hey SomeKID (AKA idiot ) A few guys in Waco tried that and they all are dead, in prison or on parole.

    Your commentis the kind of statement that has officers asking the founders of this site why we are so anti-LEO. Additionally it is irresponsible to post such a thing when some idiot may take your horrible advice as competent legal advice, when it is not.

    Some of you guys love to play lawyer on here but suggesting lethal force against police is reckless and incredibly ignorant.

    You wonder why police want to disarm citizens at traffic stops ?Keep up the loony post and we will havepolice treating every permit holder or armed citizen as a felony stop.
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    I think I would rather tell Leo off the get-go I am armed legally. He is going to find out that you are possibly armed as a result of running your license anyway. I dont want LEO to find out that I am armed by catching a glimpse of my pistol during an investigation, and because I have not informed him that I have HCP, he draws his weapon on me like he has been trained to do in such cases. You are just Joe Blow or perhaps BG to LEO and when he catches a glimpse of your weapon he is going to fall back on training.I dont think Leo after seeing a firearm on your person or in your vehicle is then going to ask to see a permit. In the amount of time it takes him to ask for proper I.D. to be carrying he could be shot dead. Leo might take that approach if he feels comfotable with you, but then again this feeling of being comfortable has gotten Leo's killed in the past .. Can you blame him for being "on guard" while he is behind the badge? That badge is a target for some.

    Leo's have been killed by BG's duringroutine traffic stops and he doesnt want to be the next. My advice is to just let Leo know initially that you are armed and that you are armed legally. Leo is then going to realize that you are a responsible citizen if you show him your HCP and perhaps let him disarm you, and until that time he doesnt want to be surprised by the presense of a firearm. More times than not Leo is going to say nothing other than leave your weapon where it is. Or in other cases he might get you out and disarm you until he is done with you. Which he has the right to do. Leo is not doing this to disrespect you, this action is for his safety and yours. That should be looked at at in no other way. Like I said earlier, Leo's are killed every year by BG's and until he identifies you and realizes that you are properly certified to carry he does not want to be surprised.

    Besides all that, why would one not inform Leo of HCP? Because you are not required by law to do so? I'm not required by law to go to work, but I do it any way. Well... why not show Leo because you respect him as a Law Enforcement Officer and that he has made it his duty to serve and protect you as a citizen of his jurisdiction. Understand that he risks his life every day wether uniformed or not to keep you safe from the BG's. The very thing that you want to conceal, because its your right, is what kills Leo's every year.

    Just let Leo know you are armed and are armed legally. If he wants to disarm you momentarily, then so be it. Dont think anybody is going to threaten your life in the presense of him anyway, so why would you need it at that moment?

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    Or in other cases he might get you out and disarm you until he is done with you. Which he has the right to do. Leo is not doing this to disrespect you, this action is for his safety and yours.





    ********. How do I know (s)he is familiar with the sidearm I decide to carry for MY protection??? (S)He may very well unholster my Glock and have a ND because my Glock has no safety! What if that ND shoots me? Worse yet what if that ND shoots the officer????

    Yeah, officer in a coma from a legit ND noone else saw, sure the Grand Jury is gonna take my word on what happened HCP and clean record be damned

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    Well, you would have the cruiser's video to back you up. However, I agree that even if they can, disarmament is nonsense. I think it would be more pleasant, much safer if officer and citizen both just agreed to keep their hands of the guns for the duration of the encounter.

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